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Hornburger said:If you go on a rampage and be a murderer, you will end up in prison and will not lead a very happy and satisfying life.
hiker said:So in essence, you want to know "What is the meaning of life?" This is a question that all people have; athiest, Christian, what have you. The answer is whatever you are willing to live and/or die for. And don't cause harm to others if at all avoidable. It won't make the difference between a heaven or a hell, but it will keep you content.
Anyway, since nobody has the answers, stop worrying about it. You'll only be wasting time you could have been spending on your own enjoyment. You only live once, and it's a short life.
hiker said:And just as a closing point, there is no difference between the righteous and the abominable sinner once you're dead. The only punishment or glory is of an Earthly nature. The idea of an eternal justice is an attempt from man to reconcile the fact that most evil is gotten away with and most good is gone unnoticed. It's too bad, but that's life.
Well, then your life was pretty much a failure because your suicide symbolizes your failure in life, unless if you have twisted morals of some nature, and then you're just a sociopath.The Real McCoy said:You failed to acknowledge the second part of my statement which was "and then commit suicide."
To those who do not believe in God and an afterlife, I propose this question: what difference would it make if someone were to lead a long, healthy, honorable life or if they went on a murderous rampage (Columbine for example) and then committed suicide? Is death not all the same in the end? Why exist in the first place?
Evolution occurs because of genetics. Genetically, some species are different than others. Because of these genetics, some species are better fit for their environment compared to others. So genetics guides it.And do you people honestly believe in purposless evolution? I'm not saying evolution doesn't exist because it does, clear as day. But WHY does it happen? What guides it? Nature? What initiated nature?
Hornburger said:Evolution occurs because of genetics. Genetically, some species are different than others. Because of these genetics, some species are better fit for their environment compared to others. So genetics guides it.
Hornburger said:What initiated nature? Nothing initiated nature. I believe the universe just always was, it didn't really NEED creating, or a big bang, or anything like that. The human mind has trouble conceiving the idea of "infinity".
How it originated? That's like saying how the very first life originated. Frankly, I don't know, I'm no biologist.The Real McCoy said:Yes, but from where did this insanely complex genetic code originate? Randomly? That's a mindless notion.
How has it been scientifically proven?It's been scientifically proven the universe did have a beginning. That's one of many areas where science and the Bible agree 100%.
What do you mean? Why can't infinity exist in our universe, but can exist in others? I don't follow you.And "infinity" exists in the realm outside of our physical universe, not in it.
Hornburger said:How has it been scientifically proven?
Hornburger said:What do you mean? Why can't infinity exist in our universe, but can exist in others? I don't follow you.
Well, then there goes my guess lol. Then I think there is yet to be a valid scientific explanation for the creation of the universe; I don't buy the Big Bang Theory, but maybe it can lead to a different explanation.The Real McCoy said:All observations point to the beginning of the universe at roughly 14 billion years ago including the microwave background radiation, spectrographic radiation measurments of the oldest stars and galaxies and the galactic expansion rate. These are measurements, not simply estimates, that all coincide with each other.
Well, if all these universes and everything kept on existing forever, wouldn't that be infinity? I don't know. I mean, the universes themselves can keep existing, maybe the things inside the universes will die or break, but then others can just be reborn or created.Infinity can't exist in our universe because of the nature of physical matter and energy. Infinity exists in the realm of the metaphysical where God exists and our intelligent minds tap into that plane to a certain degree, which sets humans apart from the animals.
The Real McCoy said:My question(s) aren't necessarily asking what the meaning of life is. They are meant to logically direct a non-believer to a higher being and point out that people who deny the existence of God can't back up their arguments with any form of rationality. It's a fact they can't and until I see a rational response RELEVANT to my initial post, I'll stand firm.
The Real McCoy said:That is a depressing, pessimistic and soulless view of our existence.
Hornburger said:Well, then there goes my guess lol. Then I think there is yet to be a valid scientific explanation for the creation of the universe; I don't buy the Big Bang Theory, but maybe it can lead to a different explanation.
Hornburger said:Well, if all these universes and everything kept on existing forever, wouldn't that be infinity? I don't know. I mean, the universes themselves can keep existing, maybe the things inside the universes will die or break, but then others can just be reborn or created.
Hornburger said:And myself, I don't think humans are much apart from animals. I mean, they are in the sense that we dominate the earth, and have superior intelligence, but I wouldn't say that we are "set apart" from the animals.
hiker said:Nobody can prove the existance or non-existance of a creator.
hiker said:What I do believe that contradicts religious people is that things happen for no reason or purpose.
hiker said:That is why I can be an athiest: I have come to terms with the fact that life is a short-term gift, not an eternity.
Well, I just don't see how this ball of gas can create this seemingly infinite array of galaxies and such...all from just a ball of gas, I don't see how it could have been, where did the solids and such come from? I don't know.The Real McCoy said:I buy the Big Bang Theory but I also believe God created the univerese in that he initiated what scientists now call "The Big Bang" There is no doubt in my mind that the universe began in an unfathomably violent explosion. ("Let there be light" as it goes) Besides, science can only observe the works of God, not God himself.
Oh, then yes, I would agree with that.What I meant was that this universe we live in is finite but the "universe" or "realm" (or whatever you choose to call it) that exists beyond the physical is in fact infinite.
Yes, I would agree to that, mentally we are unparalled in our intelligence level.While we certainly aren't set apart from animals in our physical bodies, like you said: the superior intelligence of our minds is what makes us unique. That intelligence is what allows us to probe into the concept of infinity.
Hornburger said:Well, I just don't see how this ball of gas can create this seemingly infinite array of galaxies and such...all from just a ball of gas, I don't see how it could have been, where did the solids and such come from? I don't know.The Big Bang theory doesn't claim the universe originated from a ball of gas. The universe sprouted out of a singularity with ZERO volume yet infinite mass. It wasn't a point in space or time but the BEGINNING of space and time itself, nearly impossible to comprehend. Gravity is the tool used in shaping of the structure of the universe including galaxies. Unfortunately, gravity is a mystery still yet to be unraveled by science.
Solids formed as a byproduct of nuclear fusion in the cores of stars. Hydrogen atoms fuse to helium which fuse to form carbon and so on..
Iron is the limit to this process however but heavier elements formed from the remnants of supernovae where temperatures reached degrees millions times hotter than the core of a star. The Sun is a 2nd generation star and it along with the rest of the solar system formed from the remnants of a supernova. First generation stars and their cooresponding systems have no elements heavier than iron in them.
There is no rational explanation for or against a god. Anyone that say there is is only fooling himself and being very arrogant and presumptious to boot.The Real McCoy said:Which is why athiesm makes no sense. They deny the existence of God yet have no rational reason to believe he does not exist.
The Real McCoy said:Name me one thing in the history of time that has happened for no reason or purpose. ONE single event. That's all I need and then I shall prove you wrong.
The Real McCoy said:Life in this physical world is not eternal, granted. But it's foolish to deny your eternal spirit.
hiker said:There is no rational explanation for or against a god. Anyone that say there is is only fooling himself and being very arrogant and presumptious to boot.
hiker said:Perhaps I should have phrased my response differently. There is no pattern of intelligent control over random events. An example: yes, hurricanes have a cause of creation and a predictable path. But the events that lead to the creation of said hurricane were not put into place by an intelligent being, just the coincidental convergence of different elements (rain, jet stream, warm water, etc.) All natural disasters such as this (earthquakes, asteroid impacts, etc.) do have a reason behind their occurence, but no purpose. Only consequences.
hiker said:The same logic applies to the formation of the universe as well. There is a logical explanation for everything from the formation onward till today. Our universe is the consequence of the big bang. It is a random consequence based on understandable and logical events. (The forming of suns, galaxies, planets, etc) What there was before the big bang is something mankind may never know. I try not to worry about it :smile: To link the time before time to an omnipotent being that is watching me right now is one hell of a leap in logic. I will be willing to give you this: I don't know. But neither do you.
hiker said:My eternal spirit is the memories of myself that I leave behind in the minds of the still living. I hope they are good memories, I try to be good to people that deserve it. And I do have a spirit: a human spirit that allows me to enjoy things that are beautiful; that allows me to feel the love of my fiance and give that back to her; to just stop every once in a while and think about how wonderful a place this world really is and how much I really enjoy being here. And of course, to hike a moutain every chance I get and set that spirit free. :smile:
hiker said:Really, my brother, enjoy your life. No need to worry about things.
Ohhh...thanks for the explanation, that makes much more sense then lol. I apologize, I am umm, a little uneducated in the realms of science lol...mmm yeah.The Real McCoy said:The Big Bang theory doesn't claim the universe originated from a ball of gas. The universe sprouted out of a singularity with ZERO volume yet infinite mass. It wasn't a point in space or time but the BEGINNING of space and time itself, nearly impossible to comprehend. Gravity is the tool used in shaping of the structure of the universe including galaxies. Unfortunately, gravity is a mystery still yet to be unraveled by science.
Solids formed as a byproduct of nuclear fusion in the cores of stars. Hydrogen atoms fuse to helium which fuse to form carbon and so on..
Iron is the limit to this process however but heavier elements formed from the remnants of supernovae where temperatures reached degrees millions times hotter than the core of a star. The Sun is a 2nd generation star and it along with the rest of the solar system formed from the remnants of a supernova. First generation stars and their cooresponding systems have no elements heavier than iron in them.
Thanks :lol:Also, props to you Hornburger for being a libertarian. I'm not registered with the libertarian party but my views are more libertarian than anything else.
Hornburger said:I might vote republican instead because libertarians would have NO chance in what has developed into the two-party system of america.
The Real McCoy said:Which is why athiesm makes no sense. They deny the existence of God yet have no rational reason to believe he does not exist.
The Real McCoy said:Name me one thing in the history of time that has happened for no reason or purpose. ONE single event. That's all I need and then I shall prove you wrong.
Naughty Nurse said:I cannot think of a rational argument to support the existence of a deity. You are coming at this from the wrong end.
Naughty Nurse said:You seem to be implying (correct me if I'm wrong) that everything happens for a purpose, and that purpose comes from your god. So why does your god want millions of people to starve to death? Millions to die from AIDS / cancer etc?
The Real McCoy said:I'm sorry Naughty Nurse, I just realized you were a socialist. I long ago found it impossible to rationally argue with the vastly tangled web of illusions that is the socialist mind.
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