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A police officer and 2 employees were killed in Chicago hospital shooting that left gunman dead

Amendment 2 Text: A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. Was this guy helping out the militia to secure the United States?

https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/19/us/mercy-hospital-chicago-shooting/index.html

Chicago (CNN)A police officer, a doctor and a pharmaceutical assistant were killed after a Monday afternoon shooting at Chicago's Mercy Hospital, Mayor Rahm Emanuel said.

The shooting was a domestic incident, Chicago police Superintendent Eddie T. Johnson said. The gunman's first victim was a woman with whom he had had a relationship, Johnson said.
The gunman, Juan Lopez, 32, also died, police said. It is unclear whether he died from police gunfire or a self-inflicted gunshot wound, Johnson said.

The right to bear arms has nothing to do with criminals who have bad intentions, so please stop with your ignorant gibberish?
 
Except that its not misinterpreted or misrepresented. Anyone that knows history knows this. Hell, Scalia even broke it down by grammar. Less than 1% of people in the US are harmed with guns. The vast majority are living in peace.

And other Supreme Court justices have thought differently in the past. Supreme court judges will come and go. The text of the Amendment will stay the same. And it is clear that the text states "for the militia". The question to ask is whether or not the Military needs armed citizens. If not, the second half of the Amendment 2 statement is negated.
 
And other Supreme Court justices have thought differently in the past. Supreme court judges will come and go. The text of the Amendment will stay the same. And it is clear that the text states "for the militia". The question to ask is whether or not the Military needs armed citizens. If not, the second half of the Amendment 2 statement is negated.

There is no part of the 2nd Amendment that states "for the militia". You should know this since you quoted and bolded the 2nd Amendment in your OP. Or have you never actually read it before? Just glanced at it and assumed exactly what it says?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Tell me, every other Right in the BoR is about individual Rights. Why do you think that the 2nd Amendment is also not about individual Rights?

Oh, as for other judges in the past: those cases were all held prior to the 14th Amendment which forced States to adhere to the BoR's also. Prior to that States had more power than the Federal Government and did not have to follow the BoR's as the BoR's are limits on the Federal Government then, not a limit on States. As such prior cases would have reflected that.
 
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There is no part of the 2nd Amendment that states "for the militia". You should know this since you quoted and bolded the 2nd Amendment in your OP. Or have you never actually read it before? Just glanced at it and assumed exactly what it says?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Tell me, every other Right in the BoR is about individual Rights. Why do you think that the 2nd Amendment is also not about individual Rights?

Oh, as for other judges in the past: those cases were all held prior to the 14th Amendment which forced States to adhere to the BoR's also. Prior to that States had more power than the Federal Government and did not have to follow the BoR's as the BoR's are limits on the Federal Government then, not a limit on States. As such prior cases would have reflected that.

The 2nd Amendment is about Individual rights. I never said it wasn't. Let's rephrase this Amendment into today's verbage.

A Military is necessary for the security of the United States, and therefore the people have the right to bear arms.

If it was just about people's rights to bear arms, they would have left out the Militia portion. It is very clear that they wanted INDIVIDUALS armed to be the militia. So unless the Military of today needs armed citizens, the second part of the statement is negated.
 
The 2nd Amendment is about Individual rights. I never said it wasn't. Let's rephrase this Amendment into today's verbage.

A Military is necessary for the security of the United States, and therefore the people have the right to bear arms.

If it was just about people's rights to bear arms, they would have left out the Militia portion. It is very clear that they wanted INDIVIDUALS armed to be the militia. So unless the Military of today needs armed citizens, the second part of the statement is negated.

To my point also - this is how the statement appears on the NRA headquarters wall.

“.. the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”

The first half—the part about the well regulated militia—has been edited out. They are so blatantly dishonest, that it's amazing that people support them.
 
Actually no, it wouldn't be a second amendment issue as anyone with a history of a diagnosed mental illness is not allowed to own a gun.

Possibly. I still go back to our irresponsible culture of it. But there's de jure, which is what you just declared, and then there's de facto, which reflects more the reality:

Florida video-game shooter able to buy guns despite mental illness. Maryland law sets some restrictions but gunman qualified despite two hospitalizations.

In Holmes’s case, no one except a couple of friends and his psychiatrists and social worker heard anything about [him wanting to] hurt anybody. People say things [about being violent] all the time, whether they’re mentally ill or not. With regard to the psychiatrists, some [members] of the public jumped on them [for not flagging Holmes as a danger before the shooting]. I looked at that as carefully as I could and I talked with both psychiatrists and the social worker. Their hands were tied by their ethics and—more importantly—the law. They could not involuntarily hospitalize him. And [Holmes] planned that. He didn’t tell them enough to allow that. The civil court has dismissed any reasonable blame of those folks.

According to the Associated Press, records in Cruz’s criminal case show that the officer and two school counselors had decided at that time that Cruz should be involuntarily committed. "I don’t know if there needs to be a whole rewrite, but it needs to be fixed,” said Florida Rep. David Silvers (D), who represents Palm Beach County. “I have a feeling if [the Baker Act] was properly utilized . . . maybe Mr. Cruz would not have been able to buy a gun and murder 17 people.”

Of course, then there's those who have a history of ongoing mentally illness who don't need to even bother trying to buy their own weapons because mommy and daddy celebrate their unrestricted Second Amendment Right and offer them free access to the theirs:

A report by the Connecticut Child Advocate noted Lanza’s mother rejected recommendations that her son be medicated and get treatment for anxiety and other conditions, but it concluded his actions were not directly caused by his psychiatric problems.

Rather, it said, his “severe and deteriorating internalized mental health problems,” when combined with a preoccupation with violence and access to deadly weapons, “proved a recipe for mass murder.”


History suggests, however, that psychiatrists are inefficient gatekeepers in this regard. Data supporting the predictive value of psychiatric diagnosis in matters of gun violence is thin at best. Psychiatric diagnosis is largely an observational tool, not an extrapolative one. Largely for this reason, research dating back to the 1970s suggests that psychiatrists using clinical judgment are not much better than laypersons at predicting which individual patients will commit violent crimes and which will not.

Clearly, my point is that this crap is bad enough without us shrugging at the diagnosed mentally-ill and pretending that they simply can't buy guns....cuz the law say's so. Five years after Sandy Hook, mental health care providers are waiting for promised boosts in funding, and many families are still battling insurance companies to cover their children’s services. It seems to me that we have a combination of problems, all of which we can't be burdened with properly addressing.
 
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And other Supreme Court justices have thought differently in the past. Supreme court judges will come and go. The text of the Amendment will stay the same. And it is clear that the text states "for the militia". The question to ask is whether or not the Military needs armed citizens. If not, the second half of the Amendment 2 statement is negated.

Militia:
-a military force that is raised from the civil population to supplement a regular army in an emergency.
-a military force that engages in rebel or terrorist activities, typically in opposition to a regular army.
-all able-bodied civilians eligible by law for military service.

The answer is Yes.
 
Possibly. I still go back to our irresponsible culture of it. But there's de jure, which is what you just declared, and then there's de facto, which reflects more the reality:







Of course, then there's those who have a history of ongoing mentally illness who don't need to even bother trying to buy their own weapons because mommy and daddy celebrate their unrestricted Second Amendment Right and offer them free access to the theirs:




History suggests, however, that psychiatrists are inefficient gatekeepers in this regard. Data supporting the predictive value of psychiatric diagnosis in matters of gun violence is thin at best. Psychiatric diagnosis is largely an observational tool, not an extrapolative one. Largely for this reason, research dating back to the 1970s suggests that psychiatrists using clinical judgment are not much better than laypersons at predicting which individual patients will commit violent crimes and which will not.

Clearly, my point is that this crap is bad enough without us shrugging at the diagnosed mentally-ill and pretending that they simply can't buy guns....cuz the law say's so. Five years after Sandy Hook, mental health care providers are waiting for promised boosts in funding, and many families are still battling insurance companies to cover their children’s services. It seems to me that we have a combination of problems, all of which we can't be burdened with properly addressing.

What you just described was a failure of the system to properly enforce existing law. As you note psychiatrists are inefficient, or perhaps the more appropriate adjective would be ineffective more than inefficient. (I know, that's the linked articles words but I think perhaps my word choice is more apropos). Mainly because psychiatrists care about their patient a bit more than what should probably be allowed when it comes to reporting mental illnesses that should be valid enough to take ones Gun Rights away. No psychiatrist wants the reputation of being the cause of taking a patients Rights away. I know one law that is constantly opposed that I would be in favor of would be mandatory reporting of even the recommendation of being involuntary committed. Then a court could decide instead of the psychiatrist. I understand the objections to the law. And they are valid. But imo not valid enough to ensure that those that are mentally ill not get a gun.
 
The 2nd Amendment is about Individual rights. I never said it wasn't. Let's rephrase this Amendment into today's verbage.

A Military is necessary for the security of the United States, and therefore the people have the right to bear arms.

If it was just about people's rights to bear arms, they would have left out the Militia portion. It is very clear that they wanted INDIVIDUALS armed to be the militia. So unless the Military of today needs armed citizens, the second part of the statement is negated.

The reason that they did not leave out the Militia portion was because BOTH needed to be protected. Not JUST one part. The States wanted to ensure that the Federal Government could not take away the States power to have a well regulated militia. But the Founders also wanted to make sure that the Federal Government could not take away the individuals Rights. Remember, the States did not want a powerful federal government. The only way that they would sign off on the Constitution was if they had assurances that their own power would still supersede the Federal Governments power in all ways but a few (article 1 section 8). The BoR's was meant towards that end. Many of the FF's didn't even want to do the BoR's because they thought that by doing so it would be used as an excuse to ignore Rights that were not enumerated.

To my point also - this is how the statement appears on the NRA headquarters wall.

“.. the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.”

The first half—the part about the well regulated militia—has been edited out. They are so blatantly dishonest, that it's amazing that people support them.

The first half is left out because the NRA does not need to protect that part. The part that is threatened is the individual Right. So no, its not dishonest. Its just what the NRA focuses on because that is the part that needs protecting. No State is going to give up its power of a well regulated militia. But a Federal government would have no problem taking away the individual Right if they could because an unarmed populous is far easier to control than an armed populous. Why do you think Hitler et al took away Jewish peoples ability to own a gun while still allowing for the "right" people to own a gun? Same goes for the British government when they tried to take the colonies ability to have guns away?
 
The reason that they did not leave out the Militia portion was because BOTH needed to be protected. Not JUST one part. The States wanted to ensure that the Federal Government could not take away the States power to have a well regulated militia. But the Founders also wanted to make sure that the Federal Government could not take away the individuals Rights. Remember, the States did not want a powerful federal government. The only way that they would sign off on the Constitution was if they had assurances that their own power would still supersede the Federal Governments power in all ways but a few (article 1 section 8). The BoR's was meant towards that end. Many of the FF's didn't even want to do the BoR's because they thought that by doing so it would be used as an excuse to ignore Rights that were not enumerated.



The first half is left out because the NRA does not need to protect that part. The part that is threatened is the individual Right. So no, its not dishonest. Its just what the NRA focuses on because that is the part that needs protecting. No State is going to give up its power of a well regulated militia. But a Federal government would have no problem taking away the individual Right if they could because an unarmed populous is far easier to control than an armed populous. Why do you think Hitler et al took away Jewish peoples ability to own a gun while still allowing for the "right" people to own a gun? Same goes for the British government when they tried to take the colonies ability to have guns away?
the king and his parliament never tried to disarm the citizen. They tried to inhibit the committees for public safety from having access to the powder magazines. Hence the “ powder alarms “ preceding the Boston massacre by five years.
 
Darn right

Why next they will require licensing and registration of vehicles in order to drive. Then they will restrict what types of vehicles are allowed to be used "for safety".

Why that's outright communism! Communism I tell ya! You leftists.....
 
the king and his parliament never tried to disarm the citizen. They tried to inhibit the committees for public safety from having access to the powder magazines. Hence the “ powder alarms “ preceding the Boston massacre by five years.

You have your dates wrong. The Boston Massacre happened in 1770. The Powder Alarm happened in 1774 after Governor Gage sent 240(?) Redcoats to the Charlestown powder house. Roughly a week later Governor Gage then sent Redcoats out to conduct warrantless searches of peoples houses to confiscate everyone's guns and powder. The militias of the various towns in Worcester(?) County gathered together along the Worcester commons. Due to that the Worcester Convention was initiated and took place. The same day the people of Suffolk County gathered and came up with the Suffolk Resolves. Which The First Continental Congress, which had just assembled in Philadelphia, unanimously endorsed. After all of that roughly 20,000 militia marched towards Boston. Their reasoning was that if the British were going to use force and/or violence to deprive people of their arms and powder then the British had declared war on them.
 
You have your dates wrong. The Boston Massacre happened in 1770. The Powder Alarm happened in 1774 after Governor Gage sent 240(?) Redcoats to the Charlestown powder house. Roughly a week later Governor Gage then sent Redcoats out to conduct warrantless searches of peoples houses to confiscate everyone's guns and powder. The militias of the various towns in Worcester(?) County gathered together along the Worcester commons. Due to that the Worcester Convention was initiated and took place. The same day the people of Suffolk County gathered and came up with the Suffolk Resolves. Which The First Continental Congress, which had just assembled in Philadelphia, unanimously endorsed. After all of that roughly 20,000 militia marched towards Boston. Their reasoning was that if the British were going to use force and/or violence to deprive people of their arms and powder then the British had declared war on them.

When were the “ Maine Powder Alarms” ? My dates could be wrong but the committees for public safety operated the powder magazines.
 
When were the “ Maine Powder Alarms” ? My dates could be wrong but the committees for public safety operated the powder magazines.

1775 Ft. Pownal. Paul Revere warned the militia that the Redcoats were coming.
 
Supreme Court decisions come and go, but the text of the Second Amendment remains the same:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The intent of this statement is obvious, and states that a militia is necessary for the security of the United States, and that the citizens were that militia. The question that should be asked - Are armed citizens necessary for the military to keep the United States secure? - because that was the intent of the 2nd Amendment.

Yeah, **** those civil rights decisions, lets just search and seize all guns because Supreme Court cases come and go, we can ignore that nonsense about rights. /s

You adhere to all decisions or you aren't a citizen, you are a partisan looking for opportunities to advance your causes at the expense of the rights of others.
 
Yeah, **** those civil rights decisions, lets just search and seize all guns because Supreme Court cases come and go, we can ignore that nonsense about rights. /s

You adhere to all decisions or you aren't a citizen, you are a partisan looking for opportunities to advance your causes at the expense of the rights of others.

Not all guns.. just yours.
 
1775 Ft. Pownal. Paul Revere warned the militia that the Redcoats were coming.

ThankYou. I’m still headed to the storage locker today to grab an arm full of books. One is about “ Paul Reveres Ride “. I remember the book showing quite a few powder alarms right after the amended sugar tax “ was rejected “ going from 6 down to 3 cents. The merchants were clamoring for 1 or 2 cents.
 
Militia:
-a military force that is raised from the civil population to supplement a regular army in an emergency.
-a military force that engages in rebel or terrorist activities, typically in opposition to a regular army.
-all able-bodied civilians eligible by law for military service.

The answer is Yes.

And we'd be prepared, right? I mean, it would be kind of late if they needed that kind of assistance and there was no one with guns nor trained to use them.
 
Darn right

Why next they will require licensing and registration of vehicles in order to drive. Then they will restrict what types of vehicles are allowed to be used "for safety".

There is no requirement for me to register a car I own. Nor to drive on my property.

And you cans still choose to drive a Pinto.
 
Supreme Court decisions come and go, but the text of the Second Amendment remains the same:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

The intent of this statement is obvious, and states that a militia is necessary for the security of the United States, and that the citizens were that militia. The question that should be asked - Are armed citizens necessary for the military to keep the United States secure? - because that was the intent of the 2nd Amendment.

The founding fathers were terrified of a standing army, as they suffered under a tyrant that used his army to impose his will on the citizens. Therefore, they wanted a guarantee that the citizens of every state would be armed so as to protect themselves against that situation. It also adds to national security to aid the military in case of invasion. That is why the North Vietnamese were so formidable. They had a highly motivated army, and armed citizens to help in the fight. (VC)
 
The reason that they did not leave out the Militia portion was because BOTH needed to be protected. Not JUST one part. The States wanted to ensure that the Federal Government could not take away the States power to have a well regulated militia. But the Founders also wanted to make sure that the Federal Government could not take away the individuals Rights. Remember, the States did not want a powerful federal government. The only way that they would sign off on the Constitution was if they had assurances that their own power would still supersede the Federal Governments power in all ways but a few (article 1 section 8). The BoR's was meant towards that end. Many of the FF's didn't even want to do the BoR's because they thought that by doing so it would be used as an excuse to ignore Rights that were not enumerated.



The first half is left out because the NRA does not need to protect that part. The part that is threatened is the individual Right. So no, its not dishonest. Its just what the NRA focuses on because that is the part that needs protecting. No State is going to give up its power of a well regulated militia. But a Federal government would have no problem taking away the individual Right if they could because an unarmed populous is far easier to control than an armed populous. Why do you think Hitler et al took away Jewish peoples ability to own a gun while still allowing for the "right" people to own a gun? Same goes for the British government when they tried to take the colonies ability to have guns away?

That's your view. It's hasn't been the view of America throughout most of its history.

https://www.brennancenter.org/analysis/how-nra-rewrote-second-amendment

Many are startled to learn that the U.S. Supreme Court didn’t rule that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual’s right to own a gun until 2008, when District of Columbia v. Heller struck down the capital’s law effectively banning handguns in the home. In fact, every other time the court had ruled previously, it had ruled otherwise.
...
There is not a single word about an individual’s right to a gun for self-defense or recreation in Madison’s notes from the Constitutional Convention. Nor was it mentioned, with a few scattered exceptions, in the records of the ratification debates in the states. Nor did the U.S. House of Representatives discuss the topic as it marked up the Bill of Rights. In fact, the original version passed by the House included a conscientious objector provision. “A well regulated militia,” it explained, “composed of the body of the people, being the best security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed, but no one religiously scrupulous of bearing arms, shall be compelled to render military service in person.”
 
An apple is an apple and an orange is an orange.
You got that right. Auto accidents (and pool accidents) kill a lot more Americans each year, individually, than guns.

My question is: why are you so concerned with gun usage and not as much with car and pool usage? I know you aren't as concerned because you don't post and OP every time there's a pool accident or car accident like you do with a gun accident.
 
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