• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

A look back at when the Supreme Court first prohibited school-led prayer

The thing is, it's not even about 'beholden to the Catholic Church' now, it's about beholden to right-wing American political ideology. The abortion issue has some overlap with the Catholic Church, but it's not as if Pope Francis is issuing orders to the Justices, which was the fear with JFK. Of course the most important 'beholden' issue in US politics is the Republican Party totally beholden to the rich. The court takeover is just about their pursuit of power over democracy.

I think what might be missing here is not that the Justices are 'beholden' in any manner, as they are not! This is most likely their true ideologies! What occurred is McConnel specifically selected individuals in concert with his Party's ideologies.

Consequently I see nothing nefarious here, as I do believe the Justices do ideologically believe they are correctly interpreting the Constitution in these instances.

While I'm not speaking of yourself, far too many are looking at this stuff as if the Justices set-out to carry forth rulings to their personal or political advantage, disregarding the Constitution. When the far greater likelihood is the Justices are ruling in what they believe is their best interpretation of the constitution. Yes, there are a myriad of legal ideologies at this level of interpretation, and they often differ substantially! But that does not mean anything nefarious or underhanded is occurring between the differing ideologists!
 
You weren't at all clear about that.

Alright, I looked over our series of posts, and I see how it could be confusing.

You talked about religious school prayer, I said not for public schools, then you changed it to 'silent and personal' as if you had never mentions group recitation, and now finally we're to your suggestion of 'moment of silence'.

Just to clarify, I'd leave the private schools along if they want morning prayer.

I'd allow a moment of silence in public schools, which could be used for silent prayer or reflection.

I'm against *that* in that there are plenty of chances for it, and it's sort of a waste of resources. YOU MUST SEND YOUR CHILD TO AN EXPENSIVE CLASS TO SIT DOING NOTHING, BY LAW.

Oh, come-on now! This takes 30 seconds, and quiets & focuses the class.

Don't knock it, until you've tried it. In fact, I'd like to hear what educators think of my suggestion.
 
I think what might be missing here is not that the Justices are 'beholden' in any manner, as they are not! This is most likely their true ideologies! What occurred is McConnel specifically selected individuals in concert with his Party's ideologies.

Yes, but what's missing *there*, is how they're not only selected for views like anti-abortion, but they're groomed to adopt far-right legal ideologies that are designed for destroying the constitution. Adopt the ideology, and you can be picked for promotion. They know this well, and some embrace it, and are picked.

There have always been some who adopt far-right ideology 'on their own'. Justices in the pro-business era that were on the court when FDR was elected, who blocked his programs. Robert Bork, Antonin Scalia.

But what the plutocrats and Republicans have done for decades is to create a 'factory' for manufacturing an army of such legal people, pushing and rewarding those who adopt ideologies created as 'alternate theories' designed to destroy the constitutions protections, to destroy the power of the public or government to limit the power of the rich.

And that's why every Republican appointed has come from long membership in that ideology factory, the Federalist Society, with billions invested in the factory to get them groomed and promoted. So, ya, it's 'their views', just like CCP spokespeople are saying 'their views' after long years of being groomed and selected for holding them.

Consequently I see nothing nefarious here, as I do believe the Justices do ideologically believe they are correctly interpreting the Constitution in these instances.

Then you have a lot to learn,, from the things I said above, about how the plutocratic views are not 'just one set of valid legal theories they happen to hold and so they're chosen', but how this is a decades-long billions of dollars project to manufacture ideologies that are corrupt and aimed at undoing the constitution? Why don't you watch the video I've linked with basic info on this? There's a LOT nefarious.

You're committing a common mistake, which is projecting YOUR better qualities onto people and missing the facts of the massive corruption involved as a result. That's very dangerous, actually. But you're right to recognize that it's NOT as simple as 'they're hired to be corrupt and knowingly do evil'. That's not how it's done.
 
Oh, come-on now! This takes 30 seconds, and quiets & focuses the class.

I'll give you one concession. *If* educators support the idea on purely non-religious grounds, and find a way to implement it that removes risk for it being exploited for political agendas, then I'll support it.
 
I so wonder what the great great grandkids and the great great great grandkids are going to think of their distant relatives that lead us down this path.

And don't forget that all this craziness is the fault of Republican voters. Distance yourself from them.
 
And don't forget that all this craziness is the fault of Republican voters. Distance yourself from them.

It's more like a combination of corrupt powerful people, who manipulate rubes, both at fault. If a spouse hires a hit man to kill, the spouse and hit man are both at fault. Both the 'owners' of the Republican Party who fund systems of manipulation, and the masses they manipulate share blame.
 
Yes, but what's missing *there*, is how they're not only selected for views like anti-abortion, but they're groomed to adopt far-right legal ideologies that are designed for destroying the constitution.

Groomed by whom?

Adopt the ideology, and you can be picked for promotion. They know this well, and some embrace it, and are picked.

Alright, I can see instances like this. But having grown-up raised Conservative by Conservatives, I can assure there are many Conservatives who take their ideologies by heart. it is who they are. Their intrinsic identities. They are not impressing or schmoozing anyone. They do what they think is right.

There have always been some who adopt far-right ideology 'on their own'. Justices in the pro-business era that were on the court when FDR was elected, who blocked his programs. Robert Bork, Antonin Scalia.

That's actually an interesting point, as over a lifetime all of us evolve.

But what the plutocrats and Republicans have done for decades is to create a 'factory' for manufacturing an army of such legal people, pushing and rewarding those who adopt ideologies created as 'alternate theories' designed to destroy the constitutions protections, to destroy the power of the public or government to limit the power of the rich.

Alright, but how much is an enforced ideology, and how much is the expression of like-minded mindset?

And then you'd have to show why in a life-time appointment, a Justice would display this fealty when there is no longer a reason to do so?

I can see your point about claiming indoctrination, but only too a point. But, I cannot see SCOTUS being required to be beholden, as they essentially have free rein.


And that's why every Republican appointed has come from long membership in that ideology factory, the Federalist Society, with billions invested in the factory to get them groomed and promoted.

I do agree here . . .

So, ya, it's 'their views', just like CCP spokespeople are saying 'their views' after long years of being groomed and selected for holding them.

. . . but 'no', I don't see proof of "grooming" over self-selection. I know several individuals in the Federalist Society, and as far as I can tell the ideologies their ideologies are their innate ideologies. They had the same substantive ideologies before joining the Society.

Then you have a lot to learn,, from the things I said above, about how the plutocratic views are not 'just one set of valid legal theories they happen to hold and so they're chosen', but how this is a decades-long billions of dollars project to manufacture ideologies that are corrupt and aimed at undoing the constitution? Why don't you watch the video I've linked with basic info on this? There's a LOT nefarious.

At this point I think you're over the top here, just as the Right believes are education system & media is producing Radical Socialists! I think your ignoring a substantial amount of self-selection here, and ignoring free-will.

But later tonight, I'll try to check-out your video.

Unfortunately though, I've got to "check out" of here! (I won't be able to respond for awhile)

--

Thanks for the convo!
 
I'll give you one concession. *If* educators support the idea on purely non-religious grounds, and find a way to implement it that removes risk for it being exploited for political agendas, then I'll support it.

Thanks.

The above would be my desire.

My Catholic Schools were extremely homogenous at the Grammar School (& even High School!) levels. But they still allowed for "silent reflection", and occasionally there would be the rare kid that did not participate, I suspect due to religious conflict or atheism. The public schools in my neighborhood really sucked, and I suspect some professed non-Catholic parents bit-the-bullet & sent their kids to us for a better education, somehow able to placate the nuns into getting in. But it was extremely rare, as the School was a Parish resource, and a wholistic approach was used. It was a Parish school, for parishioners, which by definition are Catholics. Membership in the Parish & active participation was required.

But yes, while us kids never messed with the one or two abstainers, it might have been oppressive to those kids. We would never want that in a public pluralistic institution.
 
Groomed by whom?

The Federalist Society. It nothing but a far-right ideology factory, using seminars and networking and investives and rewards to groom people to adopt the ideologies it pushes, for plutocracy. Backed by big money to get it to create that reliable legal army.

Alright, I can see instances like this. But having grown-up raised Conservative by Conservatives, I can assure there are many Conservatives who take their ideologies by heart. it is who they are. Their intrinsic identities. They are not impressing or schmoozing anyone. They do what they think is right.

I totally agree with what you said, but repeat my point that you appear blind, not to understand, other things about the issue. How billions of dollars and powerful organizations can groom such people to adopt views that benefit them without the 'conservatives' realizing they're manipulated. It's just an analogy, but have you seen the Jordan Klepper interviews of trump supporters, who 'have their own views'?
 
Alright, but how much is an enforced ideology, and how much is the expression of like-minded mindset?

It's a complicated topic hard to discuss in detail, but let's try a simple analogy. Do you think it's a coincidence that the Soviet citizens on their own adopted Soviet principles, and the Chinese people on their own adopt CCP principles, and people in red states and families and communities tend to adopt Republican principles, and people in clue states, families, communities are more likely to adopt those principles?

That's not my answer, it's just a foundation for my point - the Federalist Society uses a combination of indoctrination, rewards, networking, to seduce people who, exposed over and over, encouraged over and over and over, to hear and consider and perhaps adopt a prepared ideology that's been designed in a war on the constitution, that some of them adopt it as their views, and from that pool get selected?

And then you'd have to show why in a life-time appointment, a Justice would display this fealty when there is no longer a reason to do so?

I feel like I'm having to repeat basic things, like the word "groomed". A person might be groomed for a decade, 'hey come to a Federalist Society meeting', and get exposed, and learn how much they can gain from joining in, and come to adopt the views and thrive in the Federalist community. Over years and years, the come to identify as being on a 'team' with certain views, and having adversaries who oppose them.

When they're groomed by the Federalist Society and adopt the ideologies, they aren't serving like corrupt crooks paid to rule wrongly knowingly, who when put on the court are freed to stop doing the wrong thing; by that point it who they are, who they have been groomed to be, with ongoing reinforcement for 'their side' against their enemies.

By analogy, let's look at Libertarians. At some point someone might find something attractive about Libertarianism (there's an old saying that everyone likes something about Libertarianism). And then they decide to learn more about it, and they read books and join groups and regularly talk to other Libertarians, who reinforce their views, of why they're right and others are wrong.

The difference is, most of those people get to that point organically, 'honestly', however 'right or wrong' the views. But the Federalist Society is not organic or innocent or honest. It pretends to be, but it has an ideology hugely valued with billions of dollars behind it to recruit, develop, manufacture a legal army with a pre-determined set of legal ideologies which are designed for the purpose of defeating the constitution to benefit rich interests.

This is why it's hard for people to understand, the difference between such powerful grooming and people just having views, it's hard to think of Supreme Court Justices not understanding this and seeing through it. Then look at, say, Tom Cruise. Think the grooming he volunteered for had any effect? He's a supporters and defender of Scientology a bit like Federalist members support an ideology, without the big money recruiting him to it.

It's more subtle - people because of networking have a lot of job opportunities with Federalist members IF and only if they have the right views. So they get a job from a Federalist member - and are expected to do the same, to prefer other Federalist members for jobs they can give. And so it goes, networking all the way to the Supreme Court and the president. It's very effective.

All they while, they're 'on a team' of 'like-minded individuals' reinforcing each others' views, helping each other, fighting to get jobs for their team over others who they want to defeat, to get their legal ideology adopted instead of other ideologies. As I said, it's hard to justice but hopefully you get some idea. And again, add billions to push a PARTICULAR ideology.
 
. . . but 'no', I don't see proof of "grooming" over self-selection. I know several individuals in the Federalist Society, and as far as I can tell the ideologies their ideologies are their innate ideologies. They had the same substantive ideologies before joining the Society.

That happens also. There's an old saying in politics that it's all about organization. Another is that 'all politics is local'. The point is, let's take environmentalism. A lot of people like a better environment. But around 1970, you can look at mass rallies, organizing from the Sierra Club to Greenpeace, and much more organizing to give it more power, leading to the creation of the EPA.

Sure, people were already inclined to like a nice environment. But it was made far more powerful from organizing, from having groups people participated in reinforcing the views and taking actions. And that got the EPA and laws like the Endangered Species Act - which have been under attack by these right-wing legal ideologies ever since.

How can you tell, how can even the members tell, how they are affected by participation in the Federalist Society? How much it hardens, how much it increases, their views they were 'already inclined to have'? Billions aren't spent on these things for nothing, and there's a reason the Republicans have adopted the Federalist Society for essentially all their judges for many years.

In fact, since Eisenhower, the ABA was the official organization to evaluate and rate judicial nominees - but the Republican insistence on far-right ideologues led to them nominating so many under- or un-qualified people that Bush replaced the ABA with the Federalist Society to rate them, knowing they'd be kind to the far-right nominees.

At this point I think you're over the top here, just as the Right believes are education system & media is producing Radical Socialists! I think your ignoring a substantial amount of self-selection here, and ignoring free-will.

Not at all. While you're right to recognize those elements, the issue is not that I'm not addressing them, it's that it's too big a topic for message board exchanges so that it's hard to clearly include them.

But later tonight, I'll try to check-out your video.

Thanks. Post your reaction. He has a whole series of great speeches, about 14 parts, called "The Scheme" you can and should see if you want to learn more.
 
Since Yoga is a form of Eastern religious meditation, why isn't that banned in pubic schools as well?

Then you should have no problem with some Hindu coach huddling your kid's team for a prayer to Lord Ganesha before the big game, right?
 
The solution would be to have a brief moment of individual silent prayer or reflection.

In my Catholic Grammar School, every morning started with both Prayer & the Pledge of Allegiance. It was a wonderful way to start the day!
Yes, it was a Catholic school that I bet took no government money. There prayer is fine, but if there is tax dollars involved or on governmental property, the prayer should not be allowed. I also went to a Catholic school in grades 1-4, but do not want my religion or any other religion to be involved in politics unless they pay taxes.
 
Ours was said out-loud in unison. We were a private homogenous group.

For public schools, I'm advocating a brief period of silence, to be used as one desires. I think this would work for everyone. Straight-up, whether one choses prayer or not, starting one's day with a period of reflection is a great way to focus one's mind for the upcoming day.

I still do it, 'till today! Do it right, and you have focus for the day - rather than going through your day in a reactionary manner, as we often may do. It's actually empowering! Try it, if you haven't! (y)
We are presently going down the slippery slope. First you were able to discriminate using your religion and now openly pray on public property. that is having a virtual church on public property. You have to ask what is next.
 
Yes, it was a Catholic school that I bet took no government money. There prayer is fine, but if there is tax dollars involved or on governmental property, the prayer should not be allowed. I also went to a Catholic school in grades 1-4, but do not want my religion or any other religion to be involved in politics unless they pay taxes.
Even IF they pay taxes. That's not the issue - separation of church and state is, people's freedoms are.
 
Back
Top Bottom