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A left leaner's take on the border wall

ryzorsden

Banned
Joined
Jul 7, 2018
Messages
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Political Leaning
Very Liberal
I am not in favor of $5 billion being spent by the government when places in America don't even have clean water.

However, I do feel the need for border security, but a wall is something that is not only ineffective, but also damaging symbolically.

I think that if this wall were to be erected, the hard-nosed right wingers will finally have a symbol that reflects their belief in what America should be today: "America is for whites only, nobody else should come in." They may not say that, but c'mon, even most conservatives have to agree that's how a lot of people feel.

The fact that Trump has made this a "crisis" is laughable from my perspective. His oval office speech reeked with emotional arguments that I, quite frankly, could care two ****s about.

Did Trump give an emotional plea regarding gun violence after the Las Vegas shooting? More people died from the Las Vegas shooting than he was able to list in his speech. Sorry, but I think that allowing Americans to assemble an arsenal capable of taking Grenada is much more of a pressing issue than illegal immigration.

For anyone out there going to the grocery store, you can thank illegal immigrants for ensuring that you have cheap food to buy. You wanna pay $12 for a tomato? Go right on ahead.
 
I am not in favor of $5 billion being spent by the government when places in America don't even have clean water.

However, I do feel the need for border security, but a wall is something that is not only ineffective, but also damaging symbolically.

I think that if this wall were to be erected, the hard-nosed right wingers will finally have a symbol that reflects their belief in what America should be today: "America is for whites only, nobody else should come in." They may not say that, but c'mon, even most conservatives have to agree that's how a lot of people feel.

The fact that Trump has made this a "crisis" is laughable from my perspective. His oval office speech reeked with emotional arguments that I, quite frankly, could care two ****s about.

Did Trump give an emotional plea regarding gun violence after the Las Vegas shooting? More people died from the Las Vegas shooting than he was able to list in his speech. Sorry, but I think that allowing Americans to assemble an arsenal capable of taking Grenada is much more of a pressing issue than illegal immigration.

For anyone out there going to the grocery store, you can thank illegal immigrants for ensuring that you have cheap food to buy. You wanna pay $12 for a tomato? Go right on ahead.

Democrats have already spent over $15 billion on the shut down costing nearly $6 billion a day.

Your analysis on the cost of tomatoes was the same justification in the past for slavery, share-cropping and opposition to minimum wage laws. Think of how much clothing would cost but for slaves picking cotton? That is the ethnics of your argument.
 
I am not in favor of $5 billion being spent by the government when places in America don't even have clean water.

However, I do feel the need for border security, but a wall is something that is not only ineffective, but also damaging symbolically.

I think that if this wall were to be erected, the hard-nosed right wingers will finally have a symbol that reflects their belief in what America should be today: "America is for whites only, nobody else should come in." They may not say that, but c'mon, even most conservatives have to agree that's how a lot of people feel.

The fact that Trump has made this a "crisis" is laughable from my perspective. His oval office speech reeked with emotional arguments that I, quite frankly, could care two ****s about.

Did Trump give an emotional plea regarding gun violence after the Las Vegas shooting? More people died from the Las Vegas shooting than he was able to list in his speech. Sorry, but I think that allowing Americans to assemble an arsenal capable of taking Grenada is much more of a pressing issue than illegal immigration.

For anyone out there going to the grocery store, you can thank illegal immigrants for ensuring that you have cheap food to buy. You wanna pay $12 for a tomato? Go right on ahead.

Take your race card nonsense and shove it.

/thread
 
Democrats have already spent over $15 billion on the shut down costing nearly $6 billion a day.

Your analysis on the cost of tomatoes was the same justification in the past for slavery, share-cropping and opposition to minimum wage laws. Think of how much clothing would cost but for slaves picking cotton? That is the ethnics of your argument.

Democrats didn't spend a dime. Trump could have allowed the government to open and talked about his wall every day. Too late to try to blame Democrats.
 
I am not in favor of $5 billion being spent by the government when places in America don't even have clean water.

However, I do feel the need for border security, but a wall is something that is not only ineffective, but also damaging symbolically.

I think that if this wall were to be erected, the hard-nosed right wingers will finally have a symbol that reflects their belief in what America should be today: "America is for whites only, nobody else should come in." They may not say that, but c'mon, even most conservatives have to agree that's how a lot of people feel.

The fact that Trump has made this a "crisis" is laughable from my perspective. His oval office speech reeked with emotional arguments that I, quite frankly, could care two ****s about.

Did Trump give an emotional plea regarding gun violence after the Las Vegas shooting? More people died from the Las Vegas shooting than he was able to list in his speech. Sorry, but I think that allowing Americans to assemble an arsenal capable of taking Grenada is much more of a pressing issue than illegal immigration.

For anyone out there going to the grocery store, you can thank illegal immigrants for ensuring that you have cheap food to buy. You wanna pay $12 for a tomato? Go right on ahead.

Thank you for your candor.

Let me retort.

1. NO ONE thinks walls alone are 100% effective. However denying they are at all effective flies in the face of every wall we use in every day life. Properly guarded they can prevent most incursions. Even unguarded they require effort to overcome which can be discovered and countered.

2. We already have over 650+ miles of border "obstructions," primarily in the easiest access areas.

https://ballotpedia.org/Fact_check/How_many_miles_of_fence_stand_along_the_U.S.-Mexico_border?

But some 700 miles of border fencing had already been completed along the country's nearly 2,000-mile border with Mexico, much of it during Barack Obama's presidency, as part of the Secure Fence Act of 2006, which was signed by George W. Bush.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/700-miles-fencing-us-mexico-border-exist/story?id=45045054

Trump is asking at this time for at least the funds to both improve those "fences" and extend the wall to cover other major access routes. We have 2000 miles of border in the south, 1400 of them "unfenced." Perhaps some areas are in need of "fencing?"

3. It is a crisis of a sort. We keep allowing illegal immigrants to flaunt the law, and recently they have been organized in caravans for the specific purpose of "flooding" the border. Simply look at what is happening in Tijuana Mexico if you don't see the "crisis."

Meanwhile we have a lot of the same shanty-towns in areas of Los Angeles and San Francisco, as those "Sanctuary Cities" offer their support. https://www.reviewjournal.com/opini...urned-california-into-the-american-nightmare/

Funny thing, I google and bing searching for reports on those shanty-town or "colonias" and nothing comes to the top except anything else. Search engine bias? :unsure13:

4. Gun violence is a red herring. Try it in the gun control thread.

5. We COULD thank legal Americans if they were offered...what is that term the Democrats keep using when discussing a "fair minimum wage?" Oh yeah, a LIVING wage per American standards rather than undercutting American workers by using willing illegals.
 
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Democrats have already spent over $15 billion on the shut down costing nearly $6 billion a day.

The Trump Shutdown is owned proudly by Trump and he proclaimed that to the nation before it ever got under way. Any cost is attributed directly to Trump.
 
Thank you for your candor.

Let me retort.

1. NO ONE thinks walls alone are 100%. However denying they are at all effective flies in the face of every wall we use in every day life. Properly guarded they can prevent most incursions. Even unguarded the require effort to overcome which can be discovered and countered.

2. We already have over 650+ miles of border "obstructions," primarily in the easiest access areas.

https://ballotpedia.org/Fact_check/How_many_miles_of_fence_stand_along_the_U.S.-Mexico_border?

https://abcnews.go.com/US/700-miles-fencing-us-mexico-border-exist/story?id=45045054

Trump is asking at this time for at least the funds to both improve those "fences" and extend the wall to cover other major access routes. We have 2000 miles of border in the south, 1400 of them "unfenced." Perhaps some areas are in need of "fencing?"

3. It is a crisis of a sort. We keep allowing illegal immigrants to flaunt the law, and recent they have been organized in caravans for the specific purpose of "flooding" the border. Simply look at what is happening in Tijuana Mexico if you don't see the "crisis."
Meanwhile we have a lot of the same shanty-towns in areas of Los Angeles and San Francisco, as those "Sanctuary Cities" offer their support.

4. Gun violence is a red herring. Try it in the gun control thread.

5. We COULD thank legal Americans if they were offered...what is that term the Democrats keep using when discussing a "fair minimum wage?" Oh yeah, a LIVING wage per American standards rather than undercutting American workers by using willing illegals.

Here is a common theme...when someone says a border wall will be ineffective, why do you folks think that means the argument is that ALL walls are ineffective? There are specific reasons why a border wall will not be effective that pertain to the circumstances of being on the US and Mexico border. It is not a judgement on ALL walls everywhere.
 
I am not in favor of $5 billion being spent by the government when places in America don't even have clean water.

However, I do feel the need for border security, but a wall is something that is not only ineffective, but also damaging symbolically.

I think that if this wall were to be erected, the hard-nosed right wingers will finally have a symbol that reflects their belief in what America should be today: "America is for whites only, nobody else should come in." They may not say that, but c'mon, even most conservatives have to agree that's how a lot of people feel.

The fact that Trump has made this a "crisis" is laughable from my perspective. His oval office speech reeked with emotional arguments that I, quite frankly, could care two ****s about.

Did Trump give an emotional plea regarding gun violence after the Las Vegas shooting? More people died from the Las Vegas shooting than he was able to list in his speech. Sorry, but I think that allowing Americans to assemble an arsenal capable of taking Grenada is much more of a pressing issue than illegal immigration.

For anyone out there going to the grocery store, you can thank illegal immigrants for ensuring that you have cheap food to buy. You wanna pay $12 for a tomato? Go right on ahead.
With all due respect it sounds to me that you're basing your opinion, not on logic or facts, but on your erroneous opinions of Trump and conservatives. Answer me this: Can you name any space requiring physical security, e.g. preventing illegal entry or exit, that does NOT have a physical barrier around it? Try to set aside your political prejudices and answer my question.

Oh, by the way that $5 billion dollars - the government spend that much today before lunch.
 
Democrats have already spent over $15 billion on the shut down costing nearly $6 billion a day.

Your analysis on the cost of tomatoes was the same justification in the past for slavery, share-cropping and opposition to minimum wage laws. Think of how much clothing would cost but for slaves picking cotton? That is the ethnics of your argument.

You have proof at all to back that up?? If the government is shutdown, how can democrats be spending that kind of money??
 
Democrats have already spent over $15 billion on the shut down costing nearly $6 billion a day.

Your analysis on the cost of tomatoes was the same justification in the past for slavery, share-cropping and opposition to minimum wage laws. Think of how much clothing would cost but for slaves picking cotton? That is the ethnics of your argument.

Trumps extortion will not succeed. And why do you care about money all of a sudden? Trump's policies has given us Trillion $ deficits as far as the eye can see and to quote Don Jr. you "love it".
 
Here is a common theme...when someone says a border wall will be ineffective, why do you folks think that means the argument is that ALL walls are ineffective? There are specific reasons why a border wall will not be effective that pertain to the circumstances of being on the US and Mexico border. It is not a judgement on ALL walls everywhere.

No, that is deflection. Walls DO work, that's why they are used. No border wall will be sufficiently effective without proper monitoring and response action.

Of course dedicated people will try to go over, around, and in some cases even under, but all of those require time and special efforts allowing those who monitor the barriers to react.

Crying essentially that because walls can be overcome and therefore they are not "effective" enough for your taste is a fallacious argument, and the fact that walls DO WORK and ARE EFFECTIVE is why we use them.
 
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Democrats have already spent over $15 billion on the shut down costing nearly $6 billion a day.

Your analysis on the cost of tomatoes was the same justification in the past for slavery, share-cropping and opposition to minimum wage laws. Think of how much clothing would cost but for slaves picking cotton? That is the ethnics of your argument.

Democrats didn't spend a dime. Trump could have allowed the government to open and talked about his wall every day. Too late to try to blame Democrats.

He knows.

He's just telling an outrageous lie to get a reaction.
 
No, that is deflection. Walls DO work, that's why they are used. No border wall will be sufficiently effective without proper monitoring and response action.

Of course dedicated people will try to go over, around, and in some cases even under, but all of those require time and special efforts allowing those who monitor the barriers to react.

Crying essentially that because walls can be overcome and therefore they are not "effective" enough for your taste is a fallacious argument, and the fact that walls DO WORK and ARE EFFECTIVE is why we use them.

So here we go again, "walls do work" is such a handy strawman argument. Proof that you want to argue the liberals are saying all walls don't work rather than give rational consideration to their arguments about the specific issues of this wall. Thanks for proving my point.
 
So here we go again, "walls do work" is such a handy strawman argument. Proof that you want to argue the liberals are saying all walls don't work rather than give rational consideration to their arguments about the specific issues of this wall. Thanks for proving my point.

Not a "strawman response" when your OP itself is an argumentum ad populum of "everyone knows why THIS wall won't work." You don't specify exactly why, but it is based on every argument posted; i.e. "people will climb over, dig under, and go around," or "it's not necessary because most illegals and drugs come from other avenues."

Well we are not discussing "other avenues" which also need more security but are another argument as to how.

My response was directed at your "everyone knows it won't work on 'the border'" underlying argument.

A wall will work exactly as it is designed in every other case to do, i.e. prove a barrier to entry requiring people to either enter at "doors" in it, or try to sneak over, under, around, or break through.
 
Not a "strawman response" when your OP itself is an argumentum ad populum of "everyone knows why THIS wall won't work." You don't specify exactly why, but it is based on every argument posted; i.e. "people will climb over, dig under, and go around," or "it's not necessary because most illegals and drugs come from other avenues."

Well we are not discussing "other avenues" which also need more security but are another argument as to how.

My response was directed at your "everyone knows it won't work on 'the border'" underlying argument.

A wall will work exactly as it is designed in every other case to do, i.e. prove a barrier to entry requiring people to either enter at "doors" in it, or try to sneak over, under, around, or break through.

You are being intellectually dishonest.

Please point out in my post where I argued the following.

"everyone knows why THIS wall won't work."

or

"everyone knows it won't work on 'the border'"
 
You are being intellectually dishonest.

Please point out in my post where I argued the following.

"everyone knows why THIS wall won't work."

or

"everyone knows it won't work on 'the border'"

Well....

Here is a common theme...when someone says a border wall will be ineffective, why do you folks think that means the argument is that ALL walls are ineffective? There are specific reasons why a border wall will not be effective that pertain to the circumstances of being on the US and Mexico border. It is not a judgement on ALL walls everywhere.


If the "specific reasons why a border wall will not be effective as it pertains to the circumstances of being on the US and Mexico border" do NOT include either "they can climb over, under, break through or go around" or "not worth building because MOST illegals AND drugs come in via other ports of entry," then pray tell what exactly makes a wall on that particular border ineffective?
 
I am not in favor of $5 billion being spent by the government when places in America don't even have clean water.

However, I do feel the need for border security, but a wall is something that is not only ineffective, but also damaging symbolically.

I think that if this wall were to be erected, the hard-nosed right wingers will finally have a symbol that reflects their belief in what America should be today: "America is for whites only, nobody else should come in." They may not say that, but c'mon, even most conservatives have to agree that's how a lot of people feel.

The fact that Trump has made this a "crisis" is laughable from my perspective. His oval office speech reeked with emotional arguments that I, quite frankly, could care two ****s about.

Did Trump give an emotional plea regarding gun violence after the Las Vegas shooting? More people died from the Las Vegas shooting than he was able to list in his speech. Sorry, but I think that allowing Americans to assemble an arsenal capable of taking Grenada is much more of a pressing issue than illegal immigration.

For anyone out there going to the grocery store, you can thank illegal immigrants for ensuring that you have cheap food to buy. You wanna pay $12 for a tomato? Go right on ahead.

At this point we are so far from actually dealing with border security that it no longer even matters to me what Trump's position is anymore. I lost respect for any position he might have had, even one that might have sounded reasonable, the moment he took hostages and shut down the government.

I don't oppose building more walls, we can do that, and we have. We've been steadily erecting more and more walls and fences all along, and we continue doing that. We can even continue to build more walls, and better walls, I am okay with doing that.

But the moment Trump started pretending that there were "caravans of killers" and all that other nonsense, I realized that this is just a game to Donald Trump, and nothing more.
And the shutdown is just the latest hostage drama designed to take the heat off of his criminal investigations and nothing more.
Therefore, I don't care if Trump promises the Moon, because I do not believe anything he says.

And if we cave in to Trump's hostage drama, he'll take even more and bigger hostages from now on.
This day, this week, this month, must be the first and last time Trump gets to try to pull this stunt with a Democratic House majority.
It is time to nip this in the bud forever.
 
Well....




If the "specific reasons why a border wall will not be effective as it pertains to the circumstances of being on the US and Mexico border" do NOT include either "they can climb over, under, break through or go around" or "not worth building because MOST illegals AND drugs come in via other ports of entry," then pray tell what exactly makes a wall on that particular border ineffective?

Since I couldn't get an honest response to this I started a new thread with some articles that inform my views. I doubt it will be very popular since it limits people like you putting words in my mouth or trying to make blatant strawman arguments, but you are welcome to participate in it.
 
I am not in favor of $5 billion being spent by the government when places in America don't even have clean water.

However, I do feel the need for border security, but a wall is something that is not only ineffective, but also damaging symbolically.

I think that if this wall were to be erected, the hard-nosed right wingers will finally have a symbol that reflects their belief in what America should be today: "America is for whites only, nobody else should come in." They may not say that, but c'mon, even most conservatives have to agree that's how a lot of people feel.

The fact that Trump has made this a "crisis" is laughable from my perspective. His oval office speech reeked with emotional arguments that I, quite frankly, could care two ****s about.

Did Trump give an emotional plea regarding gun violence after the Las Vegas shooting? More people died from the Las Vegas shooting than he was able to list in his speech. Sorry, but I think that allowing Americans to assemble an arsenal capable of taking Grenada is much more of a pressing issue than illegal immigration.

For anyone out there going to the grocery store, you can thank illegal immigrants for ensuring that you have cheap food to buy. You wanna pay $12 for a tomato? Go right on ahead.

Spoken like a left wing hack. You lied when you said you were a "left leaner".
 
Democrats have already spent over $15 billion on the shut down costing nearly $6 billion a day.

Your analysis on the cost of tomatoes was the same justification in the past for slavery, share-cropping and opposition to minimum wage laws. Think of how much clothing would cost but for slaves picking cotton? That is the ethnics of your argument.

Nonsense. Trump himself said it's the president's fault and a sign of failure to lead.

Don't even try to pin this elsewhere.
 
Here is a common theme...when someone says a border wall will be ineffective, why do you folks think that means the argument is that ALL walls are ineffective? There are specific reasons why a border wall will not be effective that pertain to the circumstances of being on the US and Mexico border. It is not a judgement on ALL walls everywhere.

Because they're typical dumb conservatives.
 
All of you here should be more afraid of a white man with a gun, than a Mexican looking to cross the border for a better life.
 
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