A hot take: Why Afghanistan really needed to be left

[Jredbaron96]

USG's various postwar misadventures belie that assumption.

The mission creep ruined American military operations is true, but also a facet of the overall limitations of American strategic thinking.

The US was well on the way towards winning the Korean War until MacArthur blundered the United States into a disastrous battle with the Chinese, and his incompetence led to America's longest retreat in history.

 

[Jredbaron96]

I just think NeoCons and closested homosexuals who make up our foreign service and upper military ranks can’t comprehend the mindset of people who will martyr themselves for allah,

You vastly overestimate the fanaticism of the average Taliban fighter.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

You vastly overestimate the fanaticism of the average Taliban fighter.

Considering they won I don’t think the claim of overestimation is warranted at this point

 

[Jredbaron96]

Considering they won I don’t think the claim of overestimation is warranted at this point

Victory in war has never been dependent on the willingness for martyrdom, at least not by the context of this discussion.

It also doesn't make any sense. The average Taliban fighter is a member of a local militia, organized by a local warlord (usually a popular social figure). He fights after the poppy harvest and afterwards returns to his home. Men like these, not die hard jihadists and martyrs, constitute the bulk of Taliban fighters.

If they were that hie hard, they would not be bought off so frequently (as NATO did more often than they will admit).

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Victory in war has never been dependent on the willingness for martyrdom, at least not by the context of this discussion.

It also doesn't make any sense. The average Taliban fighter is a member of a local militia, organized by a local warlord (usually a popular social figure). He fights after the poppy harvest and afterwards returns to his home. Men like these, not die hard jihadists and martyrs, constitute the bulk of Taliban fighters.

If they were that hie hard, they would not be bought off so frequently (as NATO did more often than they will admit).

This is one of the prime factors of Carl Schmitts definition of a partisan.

A lightly armed fighter not openly armed or uniformed who fights when they choose but is politically engaged.

What you are admitted is that NATO was literally paying money to anti-NATO partisans? Gee I wonder why we lost!

 

[Jredbaron96]

This is one of the prime factors of Carl Schmitts definition of a partisan.

Okay? that doesn't really have anything to do with a willingness for martyrdom.

What you are admitted is that NATO was literally paying money to anti-NATO partisans?

It's not like that was unique to NATO. The Taliban regularly paid off people as well. It's an insurgency; money is ammunition.

 

[Tigerace117]

Well modern Americans have the will to start stuff, just not execute a war with objectives.

I just think NeoCons and closested homosexuals who make up our foreign service and upper military ranks can’t comprehend the mindset of people who will martyr themselves for allah, because they’re all atheists and religion is for nasty deplorables. So primitive, so they can walk into a hornets nest real fast and wonder why it is they’re losing.

When the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan the Soviet leadership tried the same nonsense of mandating women’s education and secular schools and infrastructure and were completely surprised that the rural afghans realized right away it was attempt to strip them of Islam and responded by declaring holy war

I hate to break it to you but Americans back in the “good old days” of the 1940s couldn’t wrap their heads around the kamikazes any more than modern Americans can suicide bombers today.

 

[Hamish Howl]

The mission creep ruined American military operations is true, but also a facet of the overall limitations of American strategic thinking.

The US was well on the way towards winning the Korean War until MacArthur blundered the United States into a disastrous battle with the Chinese, and his incompetence led to America's longest retreat in history.

I am by NO means a MacArthur fan, but that long-ass retreat ended up with the Chinese army getting the shit kicked out of them through every orifice.

 

[Jredbaron96]

I am by NO means a MacArthur fan, but that long-ass retreat ended up with the Chinese army getting the shit kicked out of them through every orifice.

Because they got overconfident, and Mao pushed them beyond their capacity.

It's still not a good sign that an army of light infantry with virtually no heavy equipment managed to strategically defeat a numerically equivalent mechanized army backed up by copious amounts of artillery and air power.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Because they got overconfident, and Mao pushed them beyond their capacity.

It's still not a good sign that an army of light infantry with virtually no heavy equipment managed to strategically defeat a numerically equivalent mechanized army backed up by copious amounts of artillery and air power.

More to do with them running perpendicular to their rail network, but yeah.

Also, light infantry has an advantage in mountains. Once they were out on the flats, things started turning around.

 

[Jredbaron96]

More to do with them running perpendicular to their rail network, but yeah.

Also, light infantry has an advantage in mountains. Once they were out on the flats, things started turning around.

There's still plenty of rugged terrain in South Korea, but that's really besides the point. The PVA didn't win just because it was in the mountains; they won because they were smart and the UN forces weren't. The Chinese fought a very aggressive war of maneuver with very limited logistical means and limited fire support, and MacArthur blundered them into a position where only the disobedience of the USMC saved X Corps.

 

[Ginza]

If it were up to me, Al Queda operatives wouldn't be allowed to enter America.

Everyone agrees with that, but don't forget that Al Queda murdered Americans on a warship and in buildings that were not in America.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Because they got overconfident, and Mao pushed them beyond their capacity.

It's still not a good sign that an army of light infantry with virtually no heavy equipment managed to strategically defeat a numerically equivalent mechanized army backed up by copious amounts of artillery and air power.

It’s also not a good sign that we could’ve Protected the entire Korean pensinsula because we had a weapon the Chinese had no capacity to retaliate against and refused to use it.

 

[Jredbaron96]

It’s also not a good sign that we could’ve Protected the entire Korean pensinsula because we had a weapon the Chinese had no capacity to retaliate against and refused to use it.

Using atomic weaponry in Korea was such a bad idea even MacArthur didn't really consider it.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Using atomic weaponry in Korea was such a bad idea even MacArthur didn't really consider it.

Bad idea according to who? Probably according to the communist spies who had infiltrated the foreign service who were working directly for Moscow.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Bad idea according to who?

The Joint Chief of Staff, who pointed out that escalation of the war into China risked bringing in the Soviet Far East Forces. This is ignoring the fact that lowering the threshold for nuclear weapons is a bad idea in general when it comes to blurring the lines between conventional and nuclear conflicts, but the Pentagon quickly noted that if Soviet forces were to enter the conflict the destruction of UN forces in Korea was all but guaranteed. Interference from Soviet naval forces alone would jeopardize US naval forces necessary for supplying UN forces. Given that the UN struggled against the poorly armed Chinese forces, mechanized Soviet divisions would tilt the balance clearly in favor the communists.

It's very telling that even MacArthur didn't consider nukes would be a good idea, and he was often the source of poor decision making.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Both Korea and Vietnam never escalated out of the simple reality that these "sideshows" were consuming too many US resources that were needed to defend Europe. Korea took up 85% of USAF tactical airpower and 20% of USAF strategic airpower, while reducing America's strategic reserve to just a few thousand ground troops. The same problem arose in Vietnam when the Joint Chief pointed out to LBJ that Vietnam was consuming too many American resources, and they couldn't defend both Europe and Vietnam with what forces they had.

It's easy to look back now with the benefit of hindsight and Soviet national archives available and see where they overestimated or underestimated, but they were working with what they had and knew at the time, and their reasoning is not flawed.

 

[AmNat]

The mission creep ruined American military operations is true, but also a facet of the overall limitations of American strategic thinking.

The US was well on the way towards winning the Korean War until MacArthur blundered the United States into a disastrous battle with the Chinese, and his incompetence led to America's longest retreat in history.

Korea is a great example. Despite having overwhelming technical superiority, USG's forces lost for want of the will to use their weapons against the Chinese.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Korea is a great example. Despite having overwhelming technical superiority,

Technical superiority has never been the sole qualification for victory.

USG's forces lost for want of the will to use their weapons against the Chinese.

No they didn't. More nonsense from someone who doesn't understand how war, or the world, works.

 

[Luce]

Er, yes.

That's what happens in war.

Er, yes, and you don't need boots on the ground to do it, if your objective is punitive.

 

[stevecanuck]

You vastly overestimate the fanaticism of the average Taliban fighter.

Could you please tell me why you think the average Taliban fighter is not fully steeped in Islam (in other words, a "fanatic")?

In Islam's 22 1/2 year evolution, fighting was not introduced until after the Hijra, but once included, it became a core value (some call it the sixth pillar). To make a long story short, one of the last verses "revealed by Allah" (or IMO, made up by Mohamed) was 9:111. It tells Muslims in no uncertain terms that Allah has struck a bargain with them. In exchange for an eternity in heaven they must "fight in the cause of Allah. So they kill and are killed".

I think you might underestimate the utter, unwavering belief that some Muslims have in such commands.

 

[Jredbaron96]

Could you please tell me why you think the average Taliban fighter is not fully steeped in Islam (in other words, a "fanatic")?

Because fanatics aren't regularly bought off or switch sides as the wind blows, like many Taliban fighters did. The rosters of the ANA and the Taliban were both filled with "defectors" who switched sides depending on who was winning, or sometimes just who was paying them. This was especially true after 2001 when thousands of former Taliban decided to joint the GoIRA, then when they realized how shitty Kabul was went back to the Taliban.

I think you might underestimate the utter, unwavering belief that some Muslims have in such commands.

I think you vastly underestimate the impact culture has on religion.

 

[stevecanuck]

Because fanatics aren't regularly bought off or switch sides as the wind blows, like many Taliban fighters did. The rosters of the ANA and the Taliban were both filled with "defectors" who switched sides depending on who was winning, or sometimes just who was paying them. This was especially true after 2001 when thousands of former Taliban decided to joint the GoIRA, then when they realized how shitty Kabul was went back to the Taliban.



I think you vastly underestimate the impact culture has on religion.

And I think you might be trying to avoid admitting how much 'Islam' there is in 'Islamic jihad'.

 

[Jredbaron96]

And I think you might be trying to avoid admitting how much 'Islam' there is in 'Islamic jihad'.

No one gives a shit about your hate boner for Islam.

You may not like it, but when it comes to dedicated international jihadists, the Taliban aren't counted among them. They have the same general strategic goals for the past thirty years now; take control of Afghanistan, and tell the rest of the world to **** off.

 

[stevecanuck]

No one gives a shit about your hate boner for Islam.

You may not like it, but when it comes to dedicated international jihadists, the Taliban aren't counted among them. They have the same general strategic goals for the past thirty years now; take control of Afghanistan, and tell the rest of the world to **** off.

Right, it was their "culture" that made them shot Malala Yousafzai in the head. Time to give yours a shake.