A federal judge has upheld part of Arizona's SB 1070 bill.

[Chomsky]

Why not?

You gotta show your driver's license every time you want to buy a beer.

And you have to show your library card every time you want to check out a book.

So, if you want to work, show us your Green Card. What's wrong with that?

In the cases you've mentioned the individuals initiated the contact requiring identification, and even then only one of the examples involving residency.

(and seriously - you see equivalency here in using a library card?)

But this ruling is the government demanding your papers anytime they have or initiate contact with you (read: police).

Keep taking the weak way out ceding your freedom to your government for (a false sense) of security my friend, and watch the government you get in result.

I'm old enough to remember when the police could not search your car (or your wallet!) without a warrant, nor could government monitor your banking or your phone calls without a warrant (much less email). We've given-up all those rights & privacy due to fearful short-sighted citizens desiring a false sense of security, thereby allowing the government to circumvent the constitution and turn it to trash.

And now you want to further erode our privacy & freedom?

The War on Drugs and the War on Terror have pretty much ripped our Constitution to shreds, and God forbid if we allow the government to ramp-up a 'War on Immigration' - I fear it would deep-six the document for good, and give the government the tipping impetus to tyranny.

Now, one can't safely enter Arizona without carrying their papers - utterly ridiculous!

Has anyone even asked what happens to Americans not having their papers and proof on their person? Where will they take us? What will they do to us?

What if our documents are recently lost or expired?

Do we get fingerprinted?

 

[JayDubya]

This doesn't sound very Libertarian either, American Spartan.

As a libertarian who can also do math, let's point out something right quick.

As long as you eliminate the welfare state, by all means, open the borders. Have easy and simplistic immigration for anyone to just come on over, that's cheap unskilled labor that will bring prices down. Hooray.

As long as we have such a ridiculous welfare state, you cannot open the borders and just let the poor from other countries just pour into ours willy nilly. That's stupid. That's incredibly, incredibly expensive.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

In the cases you've mentioned the individuals initiated the contact requiring identification, and even then only one of the examples involving residency.

(and seriously - you see equivalency here in using a library card?)

But this ruling is the government demanding your papers anytime they have or initiate contact with you (read: police).

Keep taking the weak way out ceding your freedom to your government for (a false sense) of security my friend, and watch the government you get in result.

I'm old enough to remember when the police could not search your car (or your wallet!) without a warrant, nor could government monitor your banking or your phone calls without a warrant (much less email). We've given-up all those rights & privacy due to fearful short-sighted citizens desiring a false sense of security, thereby allowing the government to circumvent the constitution and turn it to trash.

And now you want to further erode our privacy & freedom?

The War on Drugs and the War on Terror have pretty much ripped our Constitution to shreds, and God forbid if we allow the government to ramp-up a 'War on Immigration' - I fear it would deep-six the document for good, and give the government the tipping impetus to tyranny.

Now, one can't safely enter Arizona without carrying their papers - utterly ridiculous!

Has anyone even asked what happens to Americans not having their papers and proof on their person? Where will they take us? What will they do to us?

What if our documents are recently lost or expired?

Do we get fingerprinted?

Tell me, what happened to America since then? What groups have gained more and more power via numbers and which group has lost power via being out bred?

 

[Unitedwestand13]

Immigration and Nationality Act | USCIS

"U.S. federal law requires all aliens over the age of 14 who remain in the United States for longer than 30 days[5] to register with the U.S. government,[6] and to have registration documents in their possession at all times; violation of this requirement is a federal misdemeanor crime"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_SB_1070

The problem is ILLEGAL Aliens have come into the US without permission, have not registered with immigration, therefore should not be in the US.

Legal non citizens who have followed the process would have proper documentation. Therefore not problems.

The trouble is this: how do you tell the difference between the undocumented and documented in this country?

 

[AmericanSpartan]

As a libertarian who can also do math, let's point out something right quick.

As long as you eliminate the welfare state, by all means, open the borders. Have easy and simplistic immigration for anyone to just come on over, that's cheap unskilled labor that will bring prices down. Hooray.

As long as we have such a ridiculous welfare state, you cannot open the borders and just let the poor from other countries just pour into ours willy nilly. That's stupid. That's incredibly, incredibly expensive.

More over you can not allow in people that would replace your culture/nation/ people as it would destroy your nation.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

The trouble is this: how do you tell the difference between the undocumented and documented in this country?

Do they have documents? Are you messing with us?

 

[JayDubya]

More over you can not allow in people that would replace your culture/nation/ people as it would destroy your nation.

Ehhh. A constitutional republic should have protections against demographic changes.

Granted, we do have a party completely dedicated to promoting the notion of direct democracy and eroding our republic, and they have appointed some very corrupt people to the position where they can lie about the contents of said Constitution with impunity, so said republic is already falling apart...

 

[Unitedwestand13]

Do they have documents? Are you messing with us?

How would law enforcement officials know which people are documented or not simply by visual observation?

Which people would be subjected to being asked for their papers?

 

[mike2810]

The trouble is this: how do you tell the difference between the undocumented and documented in this country?

The federal law is not new.

Do not most citizens have some form of ID from the State or Feds?
If your in the US legally you would have the papers from immigration (green card, student pass, etc).
If your in the country illegally, you may have an id, but not the proper immigration papers/documents.

Now, its it you solution to do nothing and just ignore the issue of illegal aliens in the US?

 

[AmericanSpartan]

Ehhh. A constitutional republic should have protections against demographic changes.

Granted, we do have a party completely dedicated to promoting the notion of direct democracy and eroding our republic, and they have appointed some very corrupt people to the position where they can lie about the contents of said Constitution with impunity, so said republic is already falling apart...

And we will restore it...

 

[AmericanSpartan]

How would law enforcement officials know which people are documented or not simply by visual observation?

Which people would be subjected to being asked for their papers?

They are not asking for papers based on visual observation, stop trying to play the race card, I know the idea of 3rd worlds being sent back must make you feel mad or sad but we have to save America, if you do not feel this way, fine, leave.

Which people? Those the police pull over.

 

[Unitedwestand13]

They are not asking for papers based on visual observation, stop trying to play the race card, I know the idea of 3rd worlds being sent back must make you feel mad or sad but we have to save America, if you do not feel this way, fine, leave.

Which people? Those the police pull over.

And who would the police be most likely to pull over?

 

[AmericanSpartan]

And who would the police be most likely to pull over?

People driving under and over the speed limit, showing signs of DUI, etc.

We all know what you are doing, just come out and say you claim they will pull over brown people.

 

[matchlight]

I don't feel comfortable with a government "asking for my papers". The whole "guilty until proven innocent" thing. We went down this road with the War on Drugs, and look where that got us.

My wife just had to "prove she's innocent" by paying for and taking a drug test at a local clinic - just so she could attend nursing classes! No criminal history, no history of drug use, but her and all her classmates must prove they're innocent! And now you want all of us to "prove we're legal"?

I'm sure your familiar with the old adage of "giving up freedom for safety" leading to having "neither". I firmly believe in it, and am not happy to give government any more powers.

What's next?

A national I.D. to "prove" I'm "legal"?

A knock on my door, to see if I have my papers?

You might want to inform yourself about what part of the law calls for specifically, rather than relying on a catchy description of it which was probably cooked up and spread around by someone who does not want U.S. immigration laws enforced.

I have studied and written quite a bit about SB 1070, and it was very carefully drafted by lawyers who understand the potential constitutional problems in detail. There is at least one federal statute, which states normally may enforce, that requires aliens to carry identification on their persons and present it to officers on demand. And there is no question officers can ask persons in a vehicle for identification, after they have stopped the vehicle because they had a reasonable suspicion a law had been violated.

 

[matchlight]

AZ proves once again that it doesn't give a toss about the rights of the People. The sad thing is that many on the right side of the spectrum cheer for this ruling while not recognizing it curtails their own rights. And of course it discriminates against hispanic people. It's not like the police will suspect white people of being illegals.

Baloney. Arizona is well within its rights to protect its residents by enforcing federal laws. Contrary to your slur against Americans who want our federal immigration laws enforced, nothing about SB 1070 discriminates against anyone by ethnicity. Police cannot detain any person without reasonable suspicion of illegal activity.

By the way, most of the real racists I have ever met have been leftists. They try to hide their bias by pretending to be the defenders of ethnic minorities against the hordes of slack-jawed bigots who supposedly are everywhere in the U.S., just waiting for an excuse to persecute these poor people.

 

[calamity]

Judge upholds Arizona's 'show your papers' immigration law - Yahoo News

This is awesome.

I'm torn on this one. On one side I really hate the "show us your papers" crap, and I did not much like the immigration check point on I-10 in SW Texas when I had to pass through it. On the other hand, I'm not too happy about millions of undocumented aliens charging up here and living off the legal grid.

 

[Chomsky]

Immigration and Nationality Act | USCIS

"U.S. federal law requires all aliens over the age of 14 who remain in the United States for longer than 30 days[5] to register with the U.S. government,[6] and to have registration documents in their possession at all times; violation of this requirement is a federal misdemeanor crime"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona_SB_1070

The problem is ILLEGAL Aliens have come into the US without permission, have not registered with immigration, therefore should not be in the US.

Legal non citizens who have followed the process would have proper documentation. Therefore not problems.

You're missing the bigger point: this law is not specific to immigrants, illegal or otherwise - the authorities can now demand papers from everyone, all Americans included.

 

[Chomsky]

As a libertarian who can also do math, let's point out something right quick.

As long as you eliminate the welfare state, by all means, open the borders. Have easy and simplistic immigration for anyone to just come on over, that's cheap unskilled labor that will bring prices down. Hooray.

As long as we have such a ridiculous welfare state, you cannot open the borders and just let the poor from other countries just pour into ours willy nilly. That's stupid. That's incredibly, incredibly expensive.

I disagree - I can't think of any reason to not have a secure border, Libertarian or otherwise. There's more at stake than simply entitlements (though that's a biggie, IMO).

 

[AmericanSpartan]

I'm torn on this one. On one side I really hate the "show us your papers" crap, and I did not much like the immigration check point on I-10 in SW Texas when I had to pass through it. On the other hand, I'm not too happy about millions of undocumented aliens charging up here and living off the legal grid.

Well we can end this if we deport them, and build a wall to keep them out.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

You're missing the bigger point: this law is not specific to immigrants, illegal or otherwise - the authorities can now demand papers from everyone, all Americans included.

So you are saying that immigration can burden us and reduce our Liberty and rights?

 

[winston53660]

So you are saying that immigration can burden us and reduce our Liberty and rights?

What liberty and or right have you lost because of immigration?

 

[Chomsky]

Tell me, what happened to America since then? What groups have gained more and more power via numbers and which group has lost power via being out bred?

Since then we have the government committing all sorts of atrocities, such as confiscating cash & property summarily without warrant or guilt proven (or even charged!), 'no knock' warrant raids on individual premises in the middle of the night using military style weaponry and tactics including flash grenades (on individuals presumed innocent), all based upon supposed 'confidential informants' who need not be produced to secure a warrant, etc., etc. The list is rather extensive, and I'm surprised you need to ask.

Amazingly, you seem fine with the above loss of freedoms, as long as your perceived safety and agenda are carried out?

The enemy is not the impoverished guy sneaking across the border to work an illegal job - the enemy is a government and it's political leaders that allow the charade to continue for the benefit of corporations that receive cheap labor, a party that receives votes in exchange, and the individuals and corporations that benefit from it.

And apparently, some here are not only willing, but prefer, to further limit the rights and privacy of their fellow Americans rather than address the real problem they have with their government letting them down.

 

[Chomsky]

You might want to inform yourself about what part of the law calls for specifically, rather than relying on a catchy description of it which was probably cooked up and spread around by someone who does not want U.S. immigration laws enforced.

I have studied and written quite a bit about SB 1070, and it was very carefully drafted by lawyers who understand the potential constitutional problems in detail. There is at least one federal statute, which states normally may enforce, that requires aliens to carry identification on their persons and present it to officers on demand. And there is no question officers can ask persons in a vehicle for identification, after they have stopped the vehicle because they had a reasonable suspicion a law had been violated.

*bolding for relevance

I am having difficulty making sense of the bolded statement -

What do you mean by, "no question"?

The law states they are allowing the police to specifically inquire as to citizenship status.

 

[AmericanSpartan]

Since then we have the government committing all sorts of atrocities, such as confiscating cash & property summarily without warrant or guilt proven (or even charged!), 'no knock' warrant raids on individual premises in the middle of the night using military style weaponry and tactics including flash grenades (on individuals presumed innocent), all based upon supposed 'confidential informants' who need not be produced to secure a warrant, etc., etc. The list is rather extensive, and I'm surprised you need to ask.

Amazingly, you seem fine with the above loss of freedoms, as long as your perceived safety and agenda are carried out?

The enemy is not the impoverished guy sneaking across the border to work an illegal job - the enemy is a government and it's political leaders that allow the charade to continue for the benefit of corporations that receive cheap labor, a party that receives votes in exchange, and the individuals and corporations that benefit from it.

And apparently, some here are not only willing, but prefer, to further limit the rights and privacy of their fellow Americans rather than address the real problem they have with their government letting them down.

No I hate it, only I support ending by not allowing more of the supporters of a police state into America to begin with.

If we let in more supports of the ruling class we have now it will make things even worse.

 

[Chomsky]

So you are saying that immigration can burden us and reduce our Liberty and rights?

With all due respect, if you're not going to remain on-topic in our personnel discussion here, what's the point?

I find it hard to believe you missed my point of the loss of liberty & rights: Government intrusion - and I suggest you consider having your government work for you in terms of maintaining a secure border and legal channels of employment, before giving-up the freedoms are forefathers & framers fought so hard to win.

Mandatory E-Verify would go a long way - why do you think it's not implemented?

Hint: those carrying weight in Washington are not you, I, or the common citizens of Arizona.