• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

A failed attempt by the British.

superskippy

Active member
Joined
Jul 8, 2005
Messages
377
Reaction score
2
Location
Tel'Aviv (when not on duty.)
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4237620.stm

Score for us! This is as BS as the time the indicted our Prime Minister in Belgium. This news came down a little while ago and you should read the Amensty International report, they are scathingly angry. Almost as Angry as when we "not in so many words" told them to **** off when the indicted our PM in Belgium.
 

epr64

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
240
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Well you know..

IF there are strong presumptions that he DID commit a crime against humanity.
IF we can be reasonably sure he won't be tried seriously in his country.

THEN, why not the ICC or another court in another country?

Crime against humanity MUST be punished, don't you think? Or do you condone killing innocent people by the truckload?
Just a question..

The International Criminal Court (ICC) is the first ever permanent, treaty based, international criminal court established to promote the rule of law and ensure that the gravest international crimes do not go unpunished.

The Court shall be complementary to national criminal jurisdictions. The jurisdiction and functioning of the Court shall be governed by the provisions of the Rome Statute.
Doesn't seem unreasonable to me..



Y
 

superskippy

Active member
Joined
Jul 8, 2005
Messages
377
Reaction score
2
Location
Tel'Aviv (when not on duty.)
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
For one thing the act he is being accused of is no different from the English pinpoint attacks on Gestapo Headqaurters which killed hundreds of civilians

He ordered a bomb dropped on a Hamas leaders home, due to unforseen consiquences people had gathered at the home and 14 people were killed. Last I checked the Brit's did not arrest a single Palestinian PLO member who stopped by in Britian :roll:

Scotland Yard is launching a criminal Investigation into the Israeli Embassy in London, and we are launching an Investigation into the British Embassy in Tel'Aviv.

Recent Update: Scotland Yard had detectives waiting at the Air Port to arrest the General, by he was flying El Al, and the airplane as such has Israeli Military Radio and received a message from the Israeli Military Attache not to leave. He stayed on board and flew back to Israel. Scotland Yard is trying to figure out how the Military Attache knew, no one is saying it directly yet, but Mossad is on the forefront of everyones mind.

Amnesty International is also wondering why no one boarded the plane, one reason is that El Al has Israeli Security guards armed with Automatic Weapons, an attempt to board the Israeli plane already illegal would have given them grounds to fire.

At has come to light that the British Lawer representing the Palestinian is asking Scotland Yard to investigate the Military Envoy who informed him, for possible criminal charges or deportation.

This is just getting out of hand, the Brit's should recind the warrant and end what could escilate into a major diplmatic problam.
 
Last edited:

epr64

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
240
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
superskippy said:
For one thing the act he is being accused of is no different from the English pinpoint attacks on Gestapo Headqaurters which killed hundreds of civilians

He ordered a bomb dropped on a Hamas leaders home, due to unforseen consiquences people had gathered at the home and 14 people were killed. Last I checked the Brit's did not arrest a single Palestinian PLO member who stopped by in Britian :roll:

Scotland Yard is launching a criminal Investigation into the Israeli Embassy in London, and we are launching an Investigation into the British Embassy in Tel'Aviv.

Recent Update: Scotland Yard had detectives waiting at the Air Port to arrest the General, by he was flying El Al, and the airplane as such has Israeli Military Radio and received a message from the Israeli Military Attache not to leave. He stayed on board and flew back to Israel. Scotland Yard is trying to figure out how the Military Attache knew, no one is saying it directly yet, but Mossad is on the forefront of everyones mind.

Amnesty International is also wondering why no one boarded the plane, one reason is that El Al has Israeli Security guards armed with Automatic Weapons, an attempt to board the Israeli plane already illegal would have given them grounds to fire.

At has come to light that the British Lawer representing the Palestinian is asking Scotland Yard to investigate the Military Envoy who informed him, for possible criminal charges or deportation.

This is just getting out of hand, the Brit's should recind the warrant and end what could escilate into a major diplmatic problam.

That was NOT the question, mate.
He DID order something that was illegal, or he did not? Is it because the brits did it during WWII that it makes it good?

His actions killed innocents. You seem to find it OK. I just hope you won't be too close to the home of someone you don't know the day someone will decide to bomb it.

Oh, and let's not forget the OTHER reason for the warrant..

The warrant relates to the bulldozing of more than 50 houses in the Rafah refugee camp in the Gaza Strip, when Maj Gen Almog was head of Israel's Southern Command.

These are crimes under the Geneva convention. Dot dash. The same kind of crime Sharon commited when he authorised and helped the Xian militias to enter Sabra and Chatillah and commit mass murder on innocent civilians.

If you find this OK, that's your conscience that you are killing. But maybe you're better without one?

Y
 
Last edited:

superskippy

Active member
Joined
Jul 8, 2005
Messages
377
Reaction score
2
Location
Tel'Aviv (when not on duty.)
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
It's Unforseen Collateral Damage, and thus not Illegal. Similar to when you fire a bullet and it misses the target and kills someone, or when an artillary shell hits a place of an enemy combatant and civilians get caught in the crossfire vicinity.
 

epr64

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
240
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
superskippy said:
It's Unforseen Collateral Damage, and thus not Illegal. Similar to when you fire a bullet and it misses the target and kills someone, or when an artillary shell hits a place of an enemy combatant and civilians get caught in the crossfire vicinity.

Also under Maj Gen Almog's command, Israel dropped a one-ton bomb on a Hamas leader's home, killing the man, an assistant and 14 civilians, nine of them children.
Yeah.. Collateral damage, huh? You don't even have the guts to call them innocent children killed by a ONE TON bomb dropped on a house in the middle of a city..

You're pathetic.. and full of hate.

Y
 

superskippy

Active member
Joined
Jul 8, 2005
Messages
377
Reaction score
2
Location
Tel'Aviv (when not on duty.)
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
It's tragic collateral damage, since we had no idea more than 20 people had gathered at his home.

The leader of the Hamas groups responsible for over 100 Israeli Deaths and his assistent were killed as plans, but tragically a group of people unknown to us had gone to see him.

I hate the terrorists, and the people who support the terrorists, and the people who agree with the terrorists.
 

epr64

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
240
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
superskippy said:
It's tragic collateral damage, since we had no idea more than 20 people had gathered at his home.

The leader of the Hamas groups responsible for over 100 Israeli Deaths and his assistent were killed as plans, but tragically a group of people unknown to us had gone to see him.

I hate the terrorists, and the people who support the terrorists, and the people who agree with the terrorists.
If you look like a terrorist, walk like a terrorist and quack like a terrorist, like undiscriminately dropping one ton bombs on houses, you're a terrorist. Even if you're a general.
The civilised people use trials, not extra-judicial killings producing what you cynically call "collateral damage".

Would you accept that the govt throws a one ton bomb on your neighbour's house (killing you and your family as "collateral") because they are sure he commited a crime?

Double standards or pure cynicism?

Guess..

Y
 

superskippy

Active member
Joined
Jul 8, 2005
Messages
377
Reaction score
2
Location
Tel'Aviv (when not on duty.)
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
It was a pinpoint attack to kill a Hamas leader responsible for over a hundred Israeli deaths. We took action and due to unforseen consequences a group of people had gathered at his house.

Would you accept that the govt throws a one ton bomb on your neighbour's house (killing you and your family as "collateral") because they are sure he commited a crime?

Well seeing as how your analogy is illused since we did not know that people would be at his house, at any rate is my neighbor part of a group waging war against the civilians of my country and has killed over a hundred people and is planning more attacks with thousands of terrorists at his back?

The civilised people use trials, not extra-judicial killings producing what you cynically call "collateral damage".


Ah yes I forgot, holding someone down in the Subway and shooting them in the head 7 times is the way to go :roll: . Or we can take the German route and just let all the terrorists go. At any rate we are fighting a war, we are not going to risk dozens of mens lives to apprehend a terrorist leader when we can bomb him. He is dead and praise to that, the tradegy was the group of people who gathered at his house.
 

epr64

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
240
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
superskippy said:
It was a pinpoint attack to kill a Hamas leader responsible for over a hundred Israeli deaths. We took action and due to unforseen consequences a group of people had gathered at his house.
Yeah. I didn't know, huh? When was the last time a sorry murderer was released? Your argument doesn't hold the road. You condone extra-judicial killings of innocent children. That's all there is.

Would you accept that the govt throws a one ton bomb on your neighbour's house (killing you and your family as "collateral") because they are sure he commited a crime?

Well seeing as how your analogy is illused since we did not know that people would be at his house, at any rate is my neighbor part of a group waging war against the civilians of my country and has killed over a hundred people and is planning more attacks with thousands of terrorists at his back?
And why not? Do you know your neighbour VERY well? Are you SURE he doesn't have anything to do with terrorism? As sure as the neighbours of the responsibles of the London attacks? I would say that, after any terrorist attack by an israeli, the whole town where he lives is eradicated from the surface of the earth, to make sure he doesn't escape. I just hope for you that you don't live there.
You basic idea is crazy and murderous. If taken literally, it would mean that, because of the actions of the Stern group, the crazies that want the destruction of Israel would be right.. I don't think you want to play that game.

The civilised people use trials, not extra-judicial killings producing what you cynically call "collateral damage".


Ah yes I forgot, holding someone down in the Subway and shooting them in the head 7 times is the way to go :roll: . Or we can take the German route and just let all the terrorists go. At any rate we are fighting a war, we are not going to risk dozens of mens lives to apprehend a terrorist leader when we can bomb him. He is dead and praise to that, the tradegy was the group of people who gathered at his house.
A JUST system (based on JUSTICE.. ever heard the word? :roll: ) can be more difficult to put in place. But that the BASIS of a democracy. If you don't apply it, you're NOT a democracy.
Now, if you compare a cretin blowing a fuse because his gun is his d**k, as what happened in London, the culprits will be tried and condemned. Once again, THAT'S democarcy.
Advocating intra-judicial killing already involves some mental deficiency, advocating EXTRA-judicial killing is tantamount to terrorism.

Y
 

Gardener

free market communist
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 5, 2005
Messages
26,657
Reaction score
15,927
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
epr64 said:
A JUST system (based on JUSTICE.. ever heard the word? :roll: ) can be more difficult to put in place. But that the BASIS of a democracy. If you don't apply it, you're NOT a democracy.
Now, if you compare a cretin blowing a fuse because his gun is his d**k, as what happened in London, the culprits will be tried and condemned. Once again, THAT'S democarcy.
Advocating intra-judicial killing already involves some mental deficiency, advocating EXTRA-judicial killing is tantamount to terrorism.

Y
I would be interested in hearing your ideas for how Israel can act in a judicial fashion? Do you really think the IDF can just walk up and serve an arrest warrant? How many of them would it take to do so and what would be the response by the Hamas terrorists if so? How many more people might be killed with the sort of full scale ground assault necessary to serve the arrest and the resulting response to it?

There are no easy choices in this one and I wonder if you have thought this one through as to what Israel should do rather than what they shouldn't. How should Israel react to the intentional murder of its civilians? Do Nothing? If not, then what avenue for acheiving justice do you think they should try that they have not already tried and rejected as too costly in terms of even more loss of life?
 

epr64

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
240
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Gardener said:
I would be interested in hearing your ideas for how Israel can act in a judicial fashion? Do you really think the IDF can just walk up and serve an arrest warrant? How many of them would it take to do so and what would be the response by the Hamas terrorists if so? How many more people might be killed with the sort of full scale ground assault necessary to serve the arrest and the resulting response to it?

There are no easy choices in this one and I wonder if you have thought this one through as to what Israel should do rather than what they shouldn't. How should Israel react to the intentional murder of its civilians? Do Nothing? If not, then what avenue for acheiving justice do you think they should try that they have not already tried and rejected as too costly in terms of even more loss of life?
Well, as far as I'm aware, IDF had no problem demolishing houses in the occupied territories. Why can't they search and find and arrest and judge someone, then? Because it's uneasy? Then, why don't we transform Leeds in a radioactive parking lot? Hey, the 7/7 bombers came from there!
Once again, if you follow this reasoning untill its logical end, the actions of the Stern group would then be a good reason for the crazy fundies to destroy Israel.. Totally stupid.

In a democracy, you arrest people and make them stand trial before independent judges. I know a lot of people love the idea that "against terrorists, everything is OK". Europe had its share of terrorism during the 70s and 80s. Did we launch 1 ton bombs?

If you use the terrorists' ways (like indiscriminately bombing children), you are a terrorist.

I don't say the situation of Israel is simple.. neither is the situation of the Palestinian people. Maybe if a REAL solution (political one) is SEARCHED, instead of destroyed (by both parties), and IMPOSED (by the UN, for example), that could solve the problem. Untill then, extra-judicial killings are the acts of terrorists, whatever their nationality and profession.

Y
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
superskippy said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4237620.stm

Score for us! This is as BS as the time the indicted our Prime Minister in Belgium. This news came down a little while ago and you should read the Amensty International report, they are scathingly angry. Almost as Angry as when we "not in so many words" told them to **** off when the indicted our PM in Belgium.
And Yasser Arafat is given the noble peace prize, go figure, only in this f'd up world could one possibly consider Arafat as a peace maker and not an architect of terror, not to mention the fact that he was a practitioner of radical Islam based off of the tennants of the nazi ideology of the Mufti Husseini whom of Arafat is a direct descendent and pupil. So ya give nazis the noble peace prize and arrest Ariel Sharone, it's like arresting FDR and giving Hitler the peace prize.
 

Gardener

free market communist
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 5, 2005
Messages
26,657
Reaction score
15,927
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
epr64 said:
Well, as far as I'm aware, IDF had no problem demolishing houses in the occupied territories. Why can't they search and find and arrest and judge someone, then? Because it's uneasy? Then, why don't we transform Leeds in a radioactive parking lot? Hey, the 7/7 bombers came from there!
Once again, if you follow this reasoning untill its logical end, the actions of the Stern group would then be a good reason for the crazy fundies to destroy Israel.. Totally stupid.

In a democracy, you arrest people and make them stand trial before independent judges. I know a lot of people love the idea that "against terrorists, everything is OK". Europe had its share of terrorism during the 70s and 80s. Did we launch 1 ton bombs?

If you use the terrorists' ways (like indiscriminately bombing children), you are a terrorist.

I don't say the situation of Israel is simple.. neither is the situation of the Palestinian people. Maybe if a REAL solution (political one) is SEARCHED, instead of destroyed (by both parties), and IMPOSED (by the UN, for example), that could solve the problem. Untill then, extra-judicial killings are the acts of terrorists, whatever their nationality and profession.

Y

The houses that are being razed hide networks of underground tunnels through which arms are smuggled with the intention of murdering Israeli citizens. It certainly makes for great propaganda when the world is shown images of the bulldozings, and especially when terrorist allies such as Rachel Corrie attempt to aid terrorists by getting in the way, but if the houses are part of the terrorist base of operations, they aren't exactly innocent, now, are they?

As to the extrajudicial bombings, I would point out that this is not a terrorist act because it does not satisfy the basic requirement for consideration as terrorism, namely that targets are chosen because they are innocent. Terrorists are blowing up busses full of civilians and discoteques full of teenagers, while the IDF is blowing up the murderers. That is not terrorism. It may be heavy handed. It may be excessive, and the loss of life in what is called "collateral damage" (a term I hate, myself) is certainly a tragedy but to draw a moral equivalency between the intentional murder of innocents and the unintentional killing of innocents in an attempt to mete justice on those who murder is specious at best and simply part and parcel of the rationalizations of the terrorists, themselves at worst.

Palestinian terrorisism is widely supported among the Palestinian population and the terrorists receive much support. Reported figures have varied over the last several years, but from over half of the Palestinian population to nearly three quarters supports terrorist killing of Jewish Israelis, and the common tactic of the terrorists is to hide among this civilian population that supports them. Bulldozing a terrorist base of operation doesn't kill people, and the houses hold still as they cover the smuggling tunnels. Getting to the terrorists, themselves is a trickier matter because they move about and because they are always among civilians. To serve any sort of warrant would require an extensive mobilization of enough troops to be able to deal with the large number of terrorist supporters, wade through the fray of those attacking them, each man deciding whether or whether not to return fire, and the whole operation could turn into an even bigger blood bath. Besides the messiness of this operation, there is often insufficient time to stage it because of the mobility factor.

I agree with you that I would like to see judicial actions rather than extrajudicial killings, but you still haven't explained how you think they could go about it. How do you arrest a terrorist when they are surrounded by those who support them, when they intentionally maximixe casualties in order to utilize them as a propaganda tool, and when they are so mobile?
 

TheTruth

New member
Joined
Sep 10, 2005
Messages
26
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
no matter what your views on it he has been accused of a crime, when the police try to arrest an alleged criminal he goes with the police, whether he has done it or not, then he explains what happened to the police, if they charge him he explains it to a court and then they follow on from there, he had no excuse for not getting off of the plane.
 

epr64

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
240
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Gardener said:
The houses that are being razed hide networks of underground tunnels through which arms are smuggled with the intention of murdering Israeli citizens. It certainly makes for great propaganda when the world is shown images of the bulldozings, and especially when terrorist allies such as Rachel Corrie attempt to aid terrorists by getting in the way, but if the houses are part of the terrorist base of operations, they aren't exactly innocent, now, are they?
Well, if you talk 'bout Rachel Corrie (and if possible, could you try to expand your vocabulary.. ALL the people that don't share your ideas are NOT terrorists or terrorists allies. This makes you look as intellectually challenged, and I don't think you are), she protected the house of a doctor, who had nothing to do with terrorism. The propoaganda goes both ways. Israel pretends that all demolitions are made to destroy this or that, while we all know it's false. At the same time, the palestinian groups say the exact opposite, which is equally untrue.


As to the extrajudicial bombings, I would point out that this is not a terrorist act because it does not satisfy the basic requirement for consideration as terrorism, namely that targets are chosen because they are innocent. Terrorists are blowing up busses full of civilians and discoteques full of teenagers, while the IDF is blowing up the murderers. That is not terrorism. It may be heavy handed. It may be excessive, and the loss of life in what is called "collateral damage" (a term I hate, myself) is certainly a tragedy but to draw a moral equivalency between the intentional murder of innocents and the unintentional killing of innocents in an attempt to mete justice on those who murder is specious at best and simply part and parcel of the rationalizations of the terrorists, themselves at worst.
Not all terrorists blow innocent civilians because they are innocent civilians. I thought it was a very good definition, but then, I thought 'bout IRA, ETA, Brigade Rosso, RAF, etc.. They targeted specific people, and didn't care 'bout "collateral damage". What is the difference between such actions carried by the IDF and the Baader-Meinhof group? I don't see any.

Palestinian terrorisism is widely supported among the Palestinian population and the terrorists receive much support. Reported figures have varied over the last several years, but from over half of the Palestinian population to nearly three quarters supports terrorist killing of Jewish Israelis, and the common tactic of the terrorists is to hide among this civilian population that supports them. Bulldozing a terrorist base of operation doesn't kill people, and the houses hold still as they cover the smuggling tunnels. Getting to the terrorists, themselves is a trickier matter because they move about and because they are always among civilians. To serve any sort of warrant would require an extensive mobilization of enough troops to be able to deal with the large number of terrorist supporters, wade through the fray of those attacking them, each man deciding whether or whether not to return fire, and the whole operation could turn into an even bigger blood bath. Besides the messiness of this operation, there is often insufficient time to stage it because of the mobility factor.
1/ Some Palestinians support the terrorist groups because they kill Israelis. 75% of the Palestinian population? That's bullshit, my friend. On the other hand, Hamas for example provides help, food etc.. to the Palestinian people. THAT is something they support.
2/ Those that support pure terrorism do so because they don't see any other solution to end their nightmare. Since 1967, they are second-rate citizens in their own country. Every action, every plan, was stopped one way or another. Every motion at the UNSC to end this was vetoed by the US. Every day, they can be jailed, killed, .. and are sure to be humiliated. Their fields are stolen from them. The jobless rate in Palestine is so high that they know they won't be able to support any family. And this lasts since nearly 40 years. I can understand that, when someone comes and tells them that blowing up a bus will help, they believe it. And now, Hamas and others can say that terrorism works, as they got Israel out of the Gaza strip. If only the roadmap (even though it's imperfect.. but perfection is impossible in such a messy situation) was followed, it would have been possible to show the Palestinian population that the world DID care, and that the end of their misery was in sight. You can be tricked to blow yourself up when desperate. Take away the despair, bring hope, and the terrorists will have a LOT of problems recruiting. As they are gutless cowards, that SEND people to die, but don't want to die themselves, it would mean less terrorist attacks.
An international solution, forcing Israel and the Palestinian authority to cooperate, would have helped to calm the situation down, and to go further. But that was not the idea of Mr Sharon, as we all can see.


I agree with you that I would like to see judicial actions rather than extrajudicial killings, but you still haven't explained how you think they could go about it. How do you arrest a terrorist when they are surrounded by those who support them, when they intentionally maximixe casualties in order to utilize them as a propaganda tool, and when they are so mobile?
Common criminals also hide in the public. The support that terrorists receive from the Palestinian population could be drastically reduced (eventhough I'm sure it's not much right now) if the people from Palestine could see that a solution does exist and will be put in place.
So, how do you arrest a terrorist? The way it was done in Europe during the 70s and 80s. You use police, exchange information, etc.. untill you can get them. That's the civilised way to do it.
It's maybe more difficult, but if you want simplicity, try dictature. Democracy isn't easy.

CU
Y
 

Gardener

free market communist
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 5, 2005
Messages
26,657
Reaction score
15,927
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
epr64 said:
Well, if you talk 'bout Rachel Corrie (and if possible, could you try to expand your vocabulary.. ALL the people that don't share your ideas are NOT terrorists or terrorists allies. This makes you look as intellectually challenged, and I don't think you are), she protected the house of a doctor, who had nothing to do with terrorism. The propoaganda goes both ways. Israel pretends that all demolitions are made to destroy this or that, while we all know it's false. At the same time, the palestinian groups say the exact opposite, which is equally untrue.




Not all terrorists blow innocent civilians because they are innocent civilians. I thought it was a very good definition, but then, I thought 'bout IRA, ETA, Brigade Rosso, RAF, etc.. They targeted specific people, and didn't care 'bout "collateral damage". What is the difference between such actions carried by the IDF and the Baader-Meinhof group? I don't see any.



1/ Some Palestinians support the terrorist groups because they kill Israelis. 75% of the Palestinian population? That's bullshit, my friend. On the other hand, Hamas for example provides help, food etc.. to the Palestinian people. THAT is something they support.
2/ Those that support pure terrorism do so because they don't see any other solution to end their nightmare. Since 1967, they are second-rate citizens in their own country. Every action, every plan, was stopped one way or another. Every motion at the UNSC to end this was vetoed by the US. Every day, they can be jailed, killed, .. and are sure to be humiliated. Their fields are stolen from them. The jobless rate in Palestine is so high that they know they won't be able to support any family. And this lasts since nearly 40 years. I can understand that, when someone comes and tells them that blowing up a bus will help, they believe it. And now, Hamas and others can say that terrorism works, as they got Israel out of the Gaza strip. If only the roadmap (even though it's imperfect.. but perfection is impossible in such a messy situation) was followed, it would have been possible to show the Palestinian population that the world DID care, and that the end of their misery was in sight. You can be tricked to blow yourself up when desperate. Take away the despair, bring hope, and the terrorists will have a LOT of problems recruiting. As they are gutless cowards, that SEND people to die, but don't want to die themselves, it would mean less terrorist attacks.
An international solution, forcing Israel and the Palestinian authority to cooperate, would have helped to calm the situation down, and to go further. But that was not the idea of Mr Sharon, as we all can see.




Common criminals also hide in the public. The support that terrorists receive from the Palestinian population could be drastically reduced (eventhough I'm sure it's not much right now) if the people from Palestine could see that a solution does exist and will be put in place.
So, how do you arrest a terrorist? The way it was done in Europe during the 70s and 80s. You use police, exchange information, etc.. untill you can get them. That's the civilised way to do it.
It's maybe more difficult, but if you want simplicity, try dictature. Democracy isn't easy.

CU
Y

My own intellectual prowess is quite limited, Jean, so I wil be the first to admit I am intellectually challenged. Having suffered under the delusions while younger that my future plans would include a life in the sciences, I was disabused of this particular notion as I was made aware of my own shortcomings when I entered college and came face to face with the true future scientists. Sobering, true, but also illuminating because a great deal of hubris can wash away seemingly in an instant if one has the self awareness. Yes, I am intellectually challenged.

As to Ms. Corrie, though, I can refer to her in several ways. I can call her a "useful idiot" or a "simple naif" or a "terrorist supporter", or any of a number of other terms including "propaganda tool", but I might point out that none of these are terms display much in the way of mutual exclusivity and that I was not in any way unaware of the panoply of terms at my disposal. I simply chose one that fit. I don't know that such a choice necessarily displays a lack of intellect in and of itself, but had I chosen the term "idealistic heroine", "Martyr for justice" "peace activist" or various other terns that might satisfy others as to the nature of my intellect, I would not be true to my own opinions on the subject, so the costs involved in my satisfying another person's burden of proof would be too great.

There are two wars between Israel and the Palestinians, Jews/Arabs. The first is the very real human struggle, one that Israel is winning due to the fact that they cannopt afford to lose. The second war, though, is the war of propaganda, and this is one that the arabs are wining handily, primarily due to their vast numerical advantage and the resulting sympathies they can evoke. I would think that any intellectual would realize the simple fact that people form their opinions around the opinions of others, that rhetorec can be tailored in such a way as to elicit a desired response, and that paradigms of public opinion can be engineered based upon these factors.

The fact that there are 100 people telling one side of a story and 1 telling the other doesn't mean that the 100 are right and the 1 wrong, but simply that there are 100 of the first and only one of the second.

I may be intellectually challenged, but even I realize that. If 100 people conform to International Solidarity party line and 1 doesn't, I'm just stubborn enough to be willing to listen to the 1 who does not conform.
 

epr64

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
240
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Gardener said:
My own intellectual prowess is quite limited, Jean, so I wil be the first to admit I am intellectually challenged. Having suffered under the delusions while younger that my future plans would include a life in the sciences, I was disabused of this particular notion as I was made aware of my own shortcomings when I entered college and came face to face with the true future scientists. Sobering, true, but also illuminating because a great deal of hubris can wash away seemingly in an instant if one has the self awareness. Yes, I am intellectually challenged.

As to Ms. Corrie, though, I can refer to her in several ways. I can call her a "useful idiot" or a "simple naif" or a "terrorist supporter", or any of a number of other terms including "propaganda tool", but I might point out that none of these are terms display much in the way of mutual exclusivity and that I was not in any way unaware of the panoply of terms at my disposal. I simply chose one that fit. I don't know that such a choice necessarily displays a lack of intellect in and of itself, but had I chosen the term "idealistic heroine", "Martyr for justice" "peace activist" or various other terns that might satisfy others as to the nature of my intellect, I would not be true to my own opinions on the subject, so the costs involved in my satisfying another person's burden of proof would be too great.

There are two wars between Israel and the Palestinians, Jews/Arabs. The first is the very real human struggle, one that Israel is winning due to the fact that they cannopt afford to lose. The second war, though, is the war of propaganda, and this is one that the arabs are wining handily, primarily due to their vast numerical advantage and the resulting sympathies they can evoke. I would think that any intellectual would realize the simple fact that people form their opinions around the opinions of others, that rhetorec can be tailored in such a way as to elicit a desired response, and that paradigms of public opinion can be engineered based upon these factors.

The fact that there are 100 people telling one side of a story and 1 telling the other doesn't mean that the 100 are right and the 1 wrong, but simply that there are 100 of the first and only one of the second.

I may be intellectually challenged, but even I realize that. If 100 people conform to International Solidarity party line and 1 doesn't, I'm just stubborn enough to be willing to listen to the 1 who does not conform.

Well, we're going a bit off topic, but OK.
I am also ready to listen to all the versions of a story.. before making my mind. I read quite a few articles, and they all relate the same thing. If you think that it's not the truth (i.e., as you seem to imply, that Rachel Corrie was defending a terrorist's house and was protecting tunnels that allowed terrorists to kill people), please enlighten me. What do you have? A proof of any kind?

As far as the "propaganda" war is concerned, Israel is doing quite fine. If you think that only the israeli side should be listened to to avoid propaganda, it is your opinion. One-sidedness is dangerous, but you live your life.

Now, let's go back to the topic. You didn't answer anything that I wrote AFTER talking 'bout Corrie. Do you care to discuss it?

Y
 

TheTruth

New member
Joined
Sep 10, 2005
Messages
26
Reaction score
0
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
TheTruth said:
no matter what your views on it he has been accused of a crime, when the police try to arrest an alleged criminal he goes with the police, whether he has done it or not, then he explains what happened to the police, if they charge him he explains it to a court and then they follow on from there, he had no excuse for not getting off of the plane.
i feel like a loser having to post my thing twice but does nobody agree with me that him fleeing and not facing a court to tell his piece was wrong?
 

Trajan Octavian Titus

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
20,915
Reaction score
546
Location
We can't stop here this is bat country!
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Very Conservative
Gardener said:
My own intellectual prowess is quite limited, Jean, so I wil be the first to admit I am intellectually challenged. Having suffered under the delusions while younger that my future plans would include a life in the sciences, I was disabused of this particular notion as I was made aware of my own shortcomings when I entered college and came face to face with the true future scientists. Sobering, true, but also illuminating because a great deal of hubris can wash away seemingly in an instant if one has the self awareness. Yes, I am intellectually challenged.

As to Ms. Corrie, though, I can refer to her in several ways. I can call her a "useful idiot" or a "simple naif" or a "terrorist supporter", or any of a number of other terms including "propaganda tool", but I might point out that none of these are terms display much in the way of mutual exclusivity and that I was not in any way unaware of the panoply of terms at my disposal. I simply chose one that fit. I don't know that such a choice necessarily displays a lack of intellect in and of itself, but had I chosen the term "idealistic heroine", "Martyr for justice" "peace activist" or various other terns that might satisfy others as to the nature of my intellect, I would not be true to my own opinions on the subject, so the costs involved in my satisfying another person's burden of proof would be too great.

There are two wars between Israel and the Palestinians, Jews/Arabs. The first is the very real human struggle, one that Israel is winning due to the fact that they cannopt afford to lose. The second war, though, is the war of propaganda, and this is one that the arabs are wining handily, primarily due to their vast numerical advantage and the resulting sympathies they can evoke. I would think that any intellectual would realize the simple fact that people form their opinions around the opinions of others, that rhetorec can be tailored in such a way as to elicit a desired response, and that paradigms of public opinion can be engineered based upon these factors.

The fact that there are 100 people telling one side of a story and 1 telling the other doesn't mean that the 100 are right and the 1 wrong, but simply that there are 100 of the first and only one of the second.

I may be intellectually challenged, but even I realize that. If 100 people conform to International Solidarity party line and 1 doesn't, I'm just stubborn enough to be willing to listen to the 1 who does not conform.
:applaud :applaud :applaud
 

superskippy

Active member
Joined
Jul 8, 2005
Messages
377
Reaction score
2
Location
Tel'Aviv (when not on duty.)
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Update: The Arrest Warrent has been recinded and Tony Blair is going to be looking into the matter.

Ariel Sharon has refused to go to the UK, on the grounds that he does not wish to be arrested. His exact words were "I hear British prisons are tough, I'd rather not have to get arrested." Theres a bit more I'll try and find the link.

I know it isnt big news elsewhere but over here it is still in the front page or 2nd page.
 
Joined
Aug 13, 2005
Messages
929
Reaction score
0
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
superskippy said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4237620.stm

Score for us! This is as BS as the time the indicted our Prime Minister in Belgium. This news came down a little while ago and you should read the Amensty International report, they are scathingly angry. Almost as Angry as when we "not in so many words" told them to **** off when the indicted our PM in Belgium.
It rankles with you doesn`t it,the thought that jews are as capable as anyone else of committing war crimes?
 
Top Bottom