A danger to our democracy (I know, tired of them?)

[Craig234]

There is a group of 'hired guns' who have a big powerful propaganda machine, who use it to manipulate Americans to support what they want and to be against what they want.

What these people are told they're supporting or opposing is one thing; and lies. What's actually being done is to seize power. If a politician is corrupt serving that group, the machine is used to give them support; and if that politician instead serves, say, the American people, they are attacked.

The existence of that group and that machine essentially make the county ungovernable, and guarantee corruption rules if the propaganda machine can fool enough people.

This can be seen in the contest between Putin saying, for example, 'the US is building bio-weapons in Ukraine', and Biden saying 'no, we're not; Putin is lying to create a false flag for him to use them.'

Who will you believe? You haven't gone to the labs and inspected them to confirm. You can 'trust' Biden. You can 'trust' Putin. You can 'trust' media who claim to answer the question - with more and more, some media supporting Biden and some Putin.

That's where that group and their propaganda machine come into play. If they have tens of millions of Americans conditioned to listen to, say, what Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity and others tell them, and they can set that message, then the idea of our democracy choosing a leader and having them trusted doesn't exist for those Americans, if they're the 'wrong' president or party.

Authoritarian powers like China, North Korea, and more and more Russia, have strangleholds on their populations. And more and more in the US, we have these people who are creating this propaganda system where people listen to them, and not elected leaders unless 'approved' by the group.

This is quite dangerous stuff. It's how we got Vietnam and Iraq wars BEFORE it was nearly this strong. It's how we could have support for Ukraine OR Putin by the American people depending who this group decided to support.

We take for granted that our media have some protections from that corruption, to serve the American people rather than lie to them. But instead of appreciating them while demanding high standards, too many people easily listen to the liars who yell 'fake news' and con them. That's the road to a China situation where the people become a mob serving corruption.

The propagandists are great at exploiting the 'free speech' culture to lie to people - while doing all they can to not offer the same freedoms to anyone they can. China increase its budget for anti-American propaganda by 500% - on social media systems Chinese people are prohibited to use, and Americans can't spread THEIR messages to China whatsoever. Same with Russia now.

This is a great challenge for our democracy. Because now building 'loyalty' and who Americans listen to is more determined by these propaganda systems, that cost big money, and guess what happens when big money is in charge? You get corrupt interests, domestic and foreign, defeating our elected leaders for public influence. America has been a bastion of 'truth over liars', but that's at risk.

 

[code1211]

There is a group of 'hired guns' who have a big powerful propaganda machine, who use it to manipulate Americans to support what they want and to be against what they want.

What these people are told they're supporting or opposing is one thing; and lies. What's actually being done is to seize power. If a politician is corrupt serving that group, the machine is used to give them support; and if that politician instead serves, say, the American people, they are attacked.

The existence of that group and that machine essentially make the county ungovernable, and guarantee corruption rules if the propaganda machine can fool enough people.

This can be seen in the contest between Putin saying, for example, 'the US is building bio-weapons in Ukraine', and Biden saying 'no, we're not; Putin is lying to create a false flag for him to use them.'

Who will you believe? You haven't gone to the labs and inspected them to confirm. You can 'trust' Biden. You can 'trust' Putin. You can 'trust' media who claim to answer the question - with more and more, some media supporting Biden and some Putin.

That's where that group and their propaganda machine come into play. If they have tens of millions of Americans conditioned to listen to, say, what Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity and others tell them, and they can set that message, then the idea of our democracy choosing a leader and having them trusted doesn't exist for those Americans, if they're the 'wrong' president or party.

Authoritarian powers like China, North Korea, and more and more Russia, have strangleholds on their populations. And more and more in the US, we have these people who are creating this propaganda system where people listen to them, and not elected leaders unless 'approved' by the group.

This is quite dangerous stuff. It's how we got Vietnam and Iraq wars BEFORE it was nearly this strong. It's how we could have support for Ukraine OR Putin by the American people depending who this group decided to support.

We take for granted that our media have some protections from that corruption, to serve the American people rather than lie to them. But instead of appreciating them while demanding high standards, too many people easily listen to the liars who yell 'fake news' and con them. That's the road to a China situation where the people become a mob serving corruption.

The propagandists are great at exploiting the 'free speech' culture to lie to people - while doing all they can to not offer the same freedoms to anyone they can. China increase its budget for anti-American propaganda by 500% - on social media systems Chinese people are prohibited to use, and Americans can't spread THEIR messages to China whatsoever. Same with Russia now.

This is a great challenge for our democracy. Because now building 'loyalty' and who Americans listen to is more determined by these propaganda systems, that cost big money, and guess what happens when big money is in charge? You get corrupt interests, domestic and foreign, defeating our elected leaders for public influence. America has been a bastion of 'truth over liars', but that's at risk.

I read about half of what you posted here and you seemed to be saying that very vague words that you would not specify by people you would not name are dong things you cannot define.

Do you see a problem with this sort of rumor mongering?

 

[PeacefulWarrior]

There is a group of 'hired guns' who have a big powerful propaganda machine, who use it to manipulate Americans to support what they want and to be against what they want.

What these people are told they're supporting or opposing is one thing; and lies. What's actually being done is to seize power. If a politician is corrupt serving that group, the machine is used to give them support; and if that politician instead serves, say, the American people, they are attacked.

The existence of that group and that machine essentially make the county ungovernable, and guarantee corruption rules if the propaganda machine can fool enough people.

This can be seen in the contest between Putin saying, for example, 'the US is building bio-weapons in Ukraine', and Biden saying 'no, we're not; Putin is lying to create a false flag for him to use them.'

Who will you believe? You haven't gone to the labs and inspected them to confirm. You can 'trust' Biden. You can 'trust' Putin. You can 'trust' media who claim to answer the question - with more and more, some media supporting Biden and some Putin.

That's where that group and their propaganda machine come into play. If they have tens of millions of Americans conditioned to listen to, say, what Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity and others tell them, and they can set that message, then the idea of our democracy choosing a leader and having them trusted doesn't exist for those Americans, if they're the 'wrong' president or party.

Authoritarian powers like China, North Korea, and more and more Russia, have strangleholds on their populations. And more and more in the US, we have these people who are creating this propaganda system where people listen to them, and not elected leaders unless 'approved' by the group.

This is quite dangerous stuff. It's how we got Vietnam and Iraq wars BEFORE it was nearly this strong. It's how we could have support for Ukraine OR Putin by the American people depending who this group decided to support.

We take for granted that our media have some protections from that corruption, to serve the American people rather than lie to them. But instead of appreciating them while demanding high standards, too many people easily listen to the liars who yell 'fake news' and con them. That's the road to a China situation where the people become a mob serving corruption.

The propagandists are great at exploiting the 'free speech' culture to lie to people - while doing all they can to not offer the same freedoms to anyone they can. China increase its budget for anti-American propaganda by 500% - on social media systems Chinese people are prohibited to use, and Americans can't spread THEIR messages to China whatsoever. Same with Russia now.

This is a great challenge for our democracy. Because now building 'loyalty' and who Americans listen to is more determined by these propaganda systems, that cost big money, and guess what happens when big money is in charge? You get corrupt interests, domestic and foreign, defeating our elected leaders for public influence. America has been a bastion of 'truth over liars', but that's at risk.

There is no "democracy", that ended a long time ago. Ship has SAILED.

There is a phony "democracy" where the phony "representative" government is completely run by multinational corporations and a few billionaires.

Probably wouldn't be all that great of a loss at this point TBH Craig, imo.

 

[Acadia]

I read about half of what you posted here and you seemed to be saying that very vague words that you would not specify by people you would not name are dong things you cannot define.

Do you see a problem with this sort of rumor mongering?

It's a think piece

 

[bubbabgone]

There is a group of 'hired guns' who have a big powerful propaganda machine, who use it to manipulate Americans to support what they want and to be against what they want.

What these people are told they're supporting or opposing is one thing; and lies. What's actually being done is to seize power. If a politician is corrupt serving that group, the machine is used to give them support; and if that politician instead serves, say, the American people, they are attacked.

The existence of that group and that machine essentially make the county ungovernable, and guarantee corruption rules if the propaganda machine can fool enough people.

This can be seen in the contest between Putin saying, for example, 'the US is building bio-weapons in Ukraine', and Biden saying 'no, we're not; Putin is lying to create a false flag for him to use them.'

Who will you believe? You haven't gone to the labs and inspected them to confirm. You can 'trust' Biden. You can 'trust' Putin. You can 'trust' media who claim to answer the question - with more and more, some media supporting Biden and some Putin.

That's where that group and their propaganda machine come into play. If they have tens of millions of Americans conditioned to listen to, say, what Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity and others tell them, and they can set that message, then the idea of our democracy choosing a leader and having them trusted doesn't exist for those Americans, if they're the 'wrong' president or party.

Authoritarian powers like China, North Korea, and more and more Russia, have strangleholds on their populations. And more and more in the US, we have these people who are creating this propaganda system where people listen to them, and not elected leaders unless 'approved' by the group.

This is quite dangerous stuff. It's how we got Vietnam and Iraq wars BEFORE it was nearly this strong. It's how we could have support for Ukraine OR Putin by the American people depending who this group decided to support.

We take for granted that our media have some protections from that corruption, to serve the American people rather than lie to them. But instead of appreciating them while demanding high standards, too many people easily listen to the liars who yell 'fake news' and con them. That's the road to a China situation where the people become a mob serving corruption.

The propagandists are great at exploiting the 'free speech' culture to lie to people - while doing all they can to not offer the same freedoms to anyone they can. China increase its budget for anti-American propaganda by 500% - on social media systems Chinese people are prohibited to use, and Americans can't spread THEIR messages to China whatsoever. Same with Russia now.

This is a great challenge for our democracy. Because now building 'loyalty' and who Americans listen to is more determined by these propaganda systems, that cost big money, and guess what happens when big money is in charge? You get corrupt interests, domestic and foreign, defeating our elected leaders for public influence. America has been a bastion of 'truth over liars', but that's at risk.

You certainly can't ensure a representative democracy through censorship. Which we did have during the last election cycle.

 

[SkyChief]

There's no question that Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity and others on FOX spin the news to suit their political agenda.

And so do their counterparts on MSNBC and CNN.

If you censor Carlson, Hannity, and Ingraham, you'll need to censor Lemon, Maddow, and Velshi too - for doing exactly the same thing.

 

[Mach]

There's no question that Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity and others on FOX spin the news to suit their political agenda.
And so do their counterparts on MSNBC and CNN.
If you censor Carlson, Hannity, and Ingraham, you'll need to censor Lemon, Maddow, and Velshi too - for doing exactly the same thing.

That's a common false equivalency. There is a a dramatic difference between Hannity, Tucker vs Maddow, Velshi.
FOX comes out backing conspiracy theories and flat out false claims to push the right wing agenda. MSNBC simply leans left on reporting, but they remaing largely fact based and mainstream.
MSNBC is watchable, FOX is like parody it's so out of control.

 

[SkyChief]

. . . . MSNBC is watchable, FOX is like parody it's so out of control.

I find exactly the opposite to be true.

 

[Craig234]

There's no question that Tucker Carlson, Sean Hannity and others on FOX spin the news to suit their political agenda.

And so do their counterparts on MSNBC and CNN.

If you censor Carlson, Hannity, and Ingraham, you'll need to censor Lemon, Maddow, and Velshi too - for doing exactly the same thing.

Totally false, and not understanding the topic at all, either.

 

[Craig234]

I find exactly the opposite to be true.

Yes, we get it. Some people say Biden is telling the truth and Putin is lying, and some people similar to you say Biden is lying and Putin is telling the truth. You not only can't tell the difference, you think you can while getting it wrong. But this isn't about just pointing out your shortcomings on the issue. If it just came down to two sides yelling at each other, China has a lot of people on its side yelling lies. Let's get back on topic, or at least try.

 

[code1211]

There is no "democracy", that ended a long time ago. Ship has SAILED.

There is a phony "democracy" where the phony "representative" government is completely run by multinational corporations and a few billionaires.

Probably wouldn't be all that great of a loss at this point TBH Craig, imo.

Sadly, this very cynical view of our country as it operates in the world seems to be entirely accurate.

 

[code1211]

It's a think piece

The foundations of a good rumor, and a good "news" story in the NY Times, is the nonspecific nature of the sources, attributions and events cited mostly by avoiding them.

In a business setting around the water cooler, when somebody or some of the guys said that some guy in the home office is thinking about doing something that might mean something else that is very bad is a great way to start a rumor.

Not even the first fact included, but the dire consequence is enough to start the mill and soon lies of various measure are growing in the fertile soil of imagination.