A Concise History of Black and White Relations in the US

[Jray]

Re: A COncise History of Black and White Relations in the US

Every group of people is a social construct deisgned to organize people according to a common trait, and distinguish them from others that do not share that trait.

Gender is nothing more than a social construct designed to organize people into groups whose molecules are organized in such a way that they form similar shapes and functions.

Race just organizes people based on a different set of molecules.

So, race exists just as much as gender does.

I can point to the chromosome that controls gender, you cant point to the one that controls race.

 

[1069]

Re: A COncise History of Black and White Relations in the US

I can point to the chromosome that controls gender, you cant point to the one that controls race.

You can point to a chromosome that controls sex.
A chromosome that controls "gender" has not been discovered, and probably never will be.
Unless and until one is, we can assume that it is nonexistent.

 

[Panache]

Re: A COncise History of Black and White Relations in the US

I can point to the chromosome that controls gender, you cant point to the one that controls race.

Those X and Y chromozomes you want to point to? Yeah, those are social constructs too. They are nothing but protons neutrons and electrons in pretty kalidoscope patterns which we have applied a particular significance to and lumped in with a bunch of other patterns of protons neutrons and electrons that share similar traits.

Try again?

 

[Jray]

Re: A COncise History of Black and White Relations in the US

Those X and Y chromozomes you want to point to? Yeah, those are social constructs too. They are nothing but protons neutrons and electrons in pretty kalidoscope patterns which we have applied a particular significance to and lumped in with a bunch of other patterns of protons neutrons and electrons that share similar traits.

Try again?

Your going to far, define race for me, if you can possibly find a way, and we'll take it from there.

And as for you comment on hip hop there is plenty of original, conscious hip hop out there.

 

[Panache]

Re: A COncise History of Black and White Relations in the US

When did I talk about hip hop?

 

[Panache]

Re: A COncise History of Black and White Relations in the US

Your going to far, define race for me, if you can possibly find a way, and we'll take it from there.

From my favorite dictionary:

race2

• noun 1 each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics. 2 racial origin or distinction: rights based on race. 3 a group of people sharing the same culture, language, etc.; an ethnic group. 4 a group of people or things with a common feature. 5 Biology a distinct population within a species; a subspecies.

— USAGE Some people now feel that the word race should be avoided, because of its associations with the now discredited theories of 19th-century anthropologists and physiologists about supposed racial superiority. Terms such as people, community, or ethnic group are less emotionally charged.

— ORIGIN French, from Italian razza.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/race_2?view=uk

I am kinda partial to this one:

4 a group of people or things with a common feature.

But most people don't like to aknowledge Vivaldi fans as a separate race, simply because we are so damn superior.

I have been using the term in the following way for the purposes of our discussion, only because I felt that it was the most applicable to the meaning as intended by your original post.

1 each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics.

 

[Jray]

Re: A COncise History of Black and White Relations in the US

From my favorite dictionary:



AskOxford: race²

I am kinda partial to this one:



But most people don't like to aknowledge Vivaldi fans as a separate race, simply because we are so damn superior.

I have been using the term in the following way for the purposes of our discussion, only because I felt that it was the most applicable to the meaning as intended by your original post.

Now problems arise how do you define that, is it just by skin color? Is Jason Kidd Black? Is Obama black? Was Homer Plessy Black? Tell me how it's defined when you reach that point.

Now to see how little skill color biologicly matter:
In fact, several scientists said, the new work shows just how small a biological difference is reflected by skin color. The newly found mutation involves a change of just one letter of DNA code out of the 3.1 billion letters in the human genome -- the complete instructions for making a human being.

Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin

 

[Panache]

Now problems arise how do you define that, is it just by skin color? Is Jason Kidd Black? Is Obama black? Was Homer Plessy Black? Tell me how it's defined when you reach that point.

No, not just by skin colour. Facial features, voice, hair texture, who knows what else? Why does it matter? You can ask the NAACP. They are the ones who wouldn't give me a scholorship.

I have already agreed that it is a social construct. I just don't see why being a social construct should mean it doesn't exist. Every other catagorization in the world is also a socail construct. Thats how catagroizations come to be. Society takes little kalidescope patterns of protons neutrons and electrons and looks for a common trait. Then all the protons neutrons and electrons with that trait are put in the appropriate catagory.

 

[Jray]

No, not just by skin colour. Facial features, voice, hair texture, who knows what else? Why does it matter? You can ask the NAACP. They are the ones who wouldn't give me a scholorship.

You still run into problems, all these people have different physical features, their only similarity is skin color.

Whatever your ethnicity their is probably scholarships for it.

I have already agreed that it is a social construct. I just don't see why being a social construct should mean it doesn't exist. Every other catagorization in the world is also a socail construct. Thats how catagroizations come to be. Society takes little kalidescope patterns of protons neutrons and electrons and looks for a common trait. Then all the protons neutrons and electrons with that trait are put in the appropriate catagory.

It exists as a social construct, nothing more than that which is why you can't say black people score lower on standardized testing because of genetics.

 

[The silenced majority]

OK to sum this thread up.


White people as a race collectively owe black people as a race reparations for past injustices, however it is impossible to define people by race.

Are you confused?

Good.

 

[Stinger]

Re: A COncise History of Black and White Relations in the US

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stinger
Having been through these discussions before let me predict the next response to your post will be that race is just a made up fallacy and there is no such thing as race.

Race is nothing more than a social construct, but if you think race more than that then prove it.

As I said................

 

[Panache]

Few people have any trouble telling that Victor Varnado is black even though he is an albino.

If you take those images you posted and invert the colours, do those people look caucasian?

Have you ever seen paintings by Andy Warhol? Is it hard to tell the ethnicity of the red girl wih the huge lips and the giant afro?

Its not just skin color. I think a lot of people from India have pretty similar skin color to people from Africa, but they look like Indian people, where as African people look like African people.

My best friend is from China, and our skin colour is almost identical. His face looks really really Chinese though, and mine looks really really not.

But just for the sake of argument, lets say you're right. Race doesn't exist.

What do you propose should be done?

 

[Voidwar]

Re: A COncise History of Black and White Relations in the US

If you can give me scientific backing showing that white people are just smarter and it is not due to other factors then you can say so but until then you can't.

The average results reflected by the SAT and ACT and Stanford Binet, when grouped by race, give you this evidence. The examinations and the huge numbers who take them, ARE "scientific backing". It is YOU who would have to prove these "other factors" even exist.

A lot of folks like to claim bias on these tests.

I will debunk that claim, for all time, right now.

If testing could be biased, then N.O.W. would have, by now, come up with an I.Q. test on which a group of women would consistantly outscore a group of men. If bias really can exist, then build me a test showing me "bias" going in the other direction. Do you know what Gloria Allred would give for such a test ? If it could be done, then feminists would have done it by now. The same goes for differences by race. If it was really just bias within the test, then a test could be made where the bias favored other races. If it really was just bias in test design, then someone would be able to come up with a test where Native Americans consistantly outscored Jews and Asians, and we ALL would have heard of it by now.

 

[RightinNYC]

Re: A COncise History of Black and White Relations in the US

I was answering why Asians have a longer life expectancy. The answer to your question, lack of access to quality health care.

Again, can you show me how "racism and discrimination" is responsible for this disparity in health care access?

That was to show that blacks are imprisoned more than whites (because last time i argued this someone denied it as being true)

Not sure what you're claiming - if you're saying that more black people are in jail than white people per capita, then yes, that's true. If you're saying that black people are imprisoned more than whites for the same crimes when all other factors are the same, then you need to back that up.

Black News and current events from African American Organizations, DogonVillage.com

That's an op-ed, not a study. You know as well as I that it's quite easy to manipulate data.

Because blacks have less access to prenatal, as with all healthcare.

Again, can you show me how "racism and discrimination" is responsible for this disparity in health care access?

I understand how it works, i was just assuming you know the answer. As i said underfunding of black schools and alienation of black students by teachers.

Link to study citing this as the reason?

Why are they more likely to attack another black or Latino over a white? That is somewhat due to internalized racism and somewhat due to racism in the justice system.

Link to study citing this as the reason?

Education Research Advocacy Support to Eliminate Racism

Again, even your source admits that:

The sources of these disparities are complex, are rooted in historic and contemporary inequities, and involve many participants at several levels, including health systems, their administrative and bureaucratic processes, utilization managers, healthcare professionals, and patients.

So I ask, what do you propose?

I don't have a link to show black schools are underfunded, but at least where I live schools are funded by property taxes, poorer areas have lower property values, which means less funding.

How is this a result of racism and discrimination?

(Also, it's worth noting that in many areas this is not how funding works. There are revenue sharing programs in place, etc. Furthermore, communities are completely free to vote to increase their school taxes. Many communities continually do this to provide better funding for the schools.)

The Trouble with Black Boys - - by Pedro A. Noguera / Education Rights / In Motion Magazine

I'm not looking for a link to the fact that some portion of a group of students said they feel X, Y, or Z, I'm looking for a link to the fact that that feeling is responsible for these disparities. That's what matters.

Can you even disprove the stereotype threat before you say it is a load of crap? Wasn't what i was getting at, said exactly what i meant. Teachers seem to be alienating black students, unless there is some other reason black students feel this way.

Again, that's not how this works. If you want to cite a novel and not-accepted fringe theory as the reason for why there's this significant and persistent gap, you have to provide evidence for why I (and anyone else) should believe it. You can't just say "stereotype threat. now disprove it."

That was for if you questioned the fact that the overwhelming majority of teachers are white.

If you read your link closely again, you'll note that it doesn't actually claim that. However, I will grant that there is some disparity, as there is in most fields in one way or another. Still, nothing offers any evidence that this is a problem.

Since i assume you were being sarcastic with that explanation, black women are undereducated and that can be seen as a flaw in the school system.

Link to a study saying that this is because of racism and discrimination?

Maybe i recalled wrong, didn't Stringer say that blacks are less likely to be hired because AA causes employers to think they only achieved the qualifications because of AA. But i am looking for a fight.

I can tell you that it's a fact that because of AA, people tend (fairly or unfairly) to look askance at minorities in situations of higher education because of the presumption (fair or unfair) that they did not have equal qualifications to their colleagues.

 

[Jray]

Few people have any trouble telling that Victor Varnado is black even though he is an albino.

If you take those images you posted and invert the colours, do those people look caucasian?

Have you ever seen paintings by Andy Warhol? Is it hard to tell the ethnicity of the red girl wih the huge lips and the giant afro?

Its not just skin color. I think a lot of people from India have pretty similar skin color to people from Africa, but they look like Indian people, where as African people look like African people.

My best friend is from China, and our skin colour is almost identical. His face looks really really Chinese though, and mine looks really really not.

But what happens when you half-black people, or quarter, how do you define it then.

Is Derek Jeter black? Is Obama? Was homer plessy?

But just for the sake of argument, lets say you're right. Race doesn't exist.

What do you propose should be done?

Well the fact is that we live in a society that recognizes race and has a history of oppressing certain races. I don't know what you mean by "what should be done?" but if you talk about ending racism then i suggest wide-spread education of the idea of race as a social consruct would be a step in the right direction.

And if your still mad about the scholarships look at this:
one million ethnic scholarships - Google Search

(click the first link)

 

[RightinNYC]

Re: A COncise History of Black and White Relations in the US

You don't have to know him.
A better question would be: Would things have been worse for him if he weren't white?
The answer is yes.
However bad things have been for him, they would've been worse if he were black.
That is the insidious nature of white privilege.

Link? You make a lot of ridiculous claims, and when I ask for evidence you have this nasty little habit of running away and avoiding the topic.

The day a white person can prove to me that, however bad their life is, it wouldn't have been even worse had they been black... is the day I'll consider revising my opinion.

Yea, cause this is how scientific inquiry is supposed to proceed. You made ridiculous claim unsupported by any facts, and in order to disprove that, someone must prove an unprovable hypothetical. :roll:

 

[RightinNYC]

Re: A COncise History of Black and White Relations in the US

No you are incorrect and your heading down a slippery slope. You can not claim one group to be genetically different enough to assert that because humans have not evolved into subspecies, so African or Asian or European, there is not enough variation to assert your claim, there is more variation within one "race" than there is between "races".

I'll ask you the same question that 1069 has avoided answering:

Do you think there are any measurable differences between people of one ethnic group and people of another, whether they be physical, mental, or social?

Do you think that there are any fields where people of one ethnic group are dominant over another?

 

[RightinNYC]

Re: A COncise History of Black and White Relations in the US

Now to see how little skill color biologicly matter:
In fact, several scientists said, the new work shows just how small a biological difference is reflected by skin color. The newly found mutation involves a change of just one letter of DNA code out of the 3.1 billion letters in the human genome -- the complete instructions for making a human being.

Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin

You're making the fallacious assumption that all of what it means to be "black" or "white" is lumped into one thing - the color of skin. There is much more that distinguishes these individuals from one another than that.

There are albino blacks out there. Does that make them "white"? In terms of color, I guess. Would they be justified in considering themselves black? Of course.

 

[RightinNYC]

It exists as a social construct, nothing more than that which is why you can't say black people score lower on standardized testing because of genetics.

I've been waiting for a hundred plus threads, but I've yet to see a single shred of evidence from anyone that cites a study purporting to explain the gap.

Do you have any?

 

[RightinNYC]

But what happens when you half-black people, or quarter, how do you define it then.

Is Derek Jeter black? Is Obama? Was homer plessy?

I don't feel the need to define them. I think people should be called whatever the hell they want to be and be treated the same regardless. It's the left that's arguing for increased classification and different treatment based on race.

Well the fact is that we live in a society that recognizes race and has a history of oppressing certain races. I don't know what you mean by "what should be done?" but if you talk about ending racism then i suggest wide-spread education of the idea of race as a social consruct would be a step in the right direction.

Care to elaborate a little further about this? How do you envision it affecting affirmative action? Race-based programs? Need-based programs?

 

[Panache]

But what happens when you half-black people, or quarter, how do you define it then.

Mostly you define it the exact same way. At some point you may blend into the third definition of race provided by Oxford, which pertains to a culture, as opposed to a catagory of physical characteristics.

Because of cultural factors someone whose physical traits might place them closer to the "white" catagory then the "black" catagory from objective observation, might identify themselves as being black, simply because they identify themselves as being part of "black" culture and are proud of their "black heritage."

Is Derek Jeter black?

Is Derek Jeter helped or is he harmed by this "white priviledge" which you seem to think actually exists?

Is he discriminated against for bing black? Is he given preferential treatment because he is white?

I say nobody cares. He gets payed to play ball. The people making money off of him only care about one colour, and that colour is green.

Is Obama?

Apparently. It seems to be one of the building blocks of his campaign. Would his political career have benefitted from white priviledge had he been white?

I think he is a mediocre politician, and his campaign has relied heavily on the fact that many people want there to at last be a black President.

Was homer plessy?

Nope. According to you race is based only on skin colour, and he was white as the driven snow. And his beard made him look like Santa Clause.

So explain to me if you will, how he benefitted from white priviledge?

Well the fact is that we live in a society that recognizes race and has a history of oppressing certain races.

Yeah, society loves making up arbitrary catagories based on nothing. Misogynists, for example are another social construct that doesn't actually exist, and therefore any assumptions made about the nature of Misogynists is similarly made from ignorance.

For example, if somone we to show that Misogynists regularly score lower on standardized tests, it is clear evidence that these misogynists are being alienated by their teachers based on a social catagorization for a phenomenon which has no basis in science.

Take for example Talloulou. Is she a Misogynist? 1069 says yes, but Talloulou doesn't identify herself as a Misogynist...

So really since you can't find a Misogynist chromozome, there is no such thing as Misogyny.

I don't know what you mean by "what should be done?" but if you talk about ending racism then i suggest wide-spread education of the idea of race as a social consruct would be a step in the right direction.

Sure. For all the good it will do. If kids see Bruce lee, and know that he is Chinese, and they see a kid in their class whose parents were Chinese, and they watch a Jackie Chan movie, they will probably be able to guess that he is Chinese without being told by anyone.

My point is that Affirmative Action should give as much aid to me as it gives to anyone else. After all, my great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great grandparents were brown skinned folk from Africa. So if there are reparations being given, they should be given to me.

 

[Panache]

I think people should be called whatever the hell they want to be and be treated the same regardless. It's the left that's arguing for increased classification and different treatment based on race.

What he said.

 

[Jray]

I will get back to all this when i have time, it's alot to respond to.

 

[Jray]

I'm not going to go back over every post here but just to recap we were discussing the existance of biological race, white privlege and the idea that blacks may be geneticly less intelligent.

So to start lets get back to the existance of a biological race. It was said that race is a group of characteristics not just skin color or the recent source of ones ansestry even though those are the two things we most associate with race. So the definition of the traits for caucasions or whites are:

"native to Europe... [and having] light skin and eyes, narrow noses, and thin lips. Their hair is usually straight or wavy"

Well, lets take native to europe and light skin our of the equation since it was said race is more than that. A trait such a narrow nose may be noted as common among europeans but if you went to the netherlands it is noted that a broader nasel index is more common. Also lights eyes may be seen as common but southern europeans, such as italians tend to have dark eyes. Both Italian those from the netherlands and italy are currently labeled as white but they do not fit these characteristics, thus showing how bankrupt the concept is. Yes only one charecteristics is only noted but it shows that certain traits are only common when the popllation is confined to a smaller area and more isolation.

Also excluding skin color traits such as narrow noses and thin lips are very common in the horn of Africa but yet these people are considered black. If there are groups of africans that exhibit most of the traditional caucasion traits but are considered black then how can we say race is this clear distinction?

The reason we associate certian charecteristics such as a broader nose to africans is because these traits are most common among west africans, which is where the ancestors of most africans in america were from due to the slave trade and the recent immigration from there.

Further more, we see far more genetic variations within species of chimps but how come we do not classify them into races?

I will get to the intelligence and white privlege later

 

[1069]

I will get to the intelligence and white privlege later

I was reading something interesting the other day.
It was an article by some guy, I can't remember his name.
Actually, he was quoting Ruby K. Payne, Ph.D, author of A Framework for Understanding Poverty, a book about generational poverty (ie, poverty extending back more than two generations).

Anyway, what this guy was saying is that there are five registers in every language: frozen (always the same, like a prayer or the pledge of allegiance), formal (the standard vocabulary and syntax of academia and professional work), consultative (formal conversational register, ie formal register slightly relaxed for use in conversation), casual (language between friends; characterized by a vocabulary of generally not more than 400-800 words), and intimate (casual language between lovers or close family members).

The article I read asserted that people from generational poverty always use the casual and never the formal registers of speech.
Generally speaking, children that grow up in generational poverty never hear the formal register used until they start school, at which point it is too late for them to really internalize it; it will never be their first language.
Since all standardized tests are written in formal language, this puts children (and adults) of generational poverty at a disadvantage- the tests are not written in a language they are fluent in or have much familiarity with or have had much exposure to.

Anyway, I read this theory, and in a way it bothered me: it seems condescending, possibly racist or classist.
But in another way, it really rings true.
So much of who one will become or what one's potential will be depends upon the language one is exposed to in the years when one is first learning to talk. That will always be one's native language, one's internalized language.
Despite my utter lack of education and not-stunningly-high IQ, I am able to communicate well- to talk in a way that gets me jobs I'm not qualified for and much else that I don't really deserve- because I was raised with formal speech. I speak the same language as the power structure. I can communicate with them on their own terms.

I think this is part of what is meant by "privilege". I was privileged to grow up surrounded by educated people who spoke formal english.
I could have just as easily been born into another kind of family, one who lived in generational poverty and didn't speak formal english. And I would've then grown up to be a person who did not have the ability to communicate in the formal register, to speak to the power structure, to use words to get ahead in life.

It seems to me that this early exposure to language is more important than just about anything else.
If, despite having no education etc, a person like me can speak like an educated person solely on the basis of the language I was exposed to as an infant, a toddler, a preschooler... that indicates to me that much of who we are, cognitively and intellectually, is already formed before we even reach the age to start school.
So kids born into families without formal language... families that are only able to communicate in the casual registers, the language of poverty and disadvantage, will always carry this language with them; it will always be their native tongue.
Even if they are very smart, work very hard in school and pick up formal english, it still won't be their first language, it will be a sort of veneer slapped over their original language, and I think that makes a difference to their future success.


So, if that makes any sense.
I should add that I don't think this is an entirely black/white issue, but rather a class issue, an issue of rich and poor or middle-class and poor.
Poor rural whites in appalachia, for example, possess no greater communication skills than poor blacks in urban ghettos.