9/11 Was an Inside Job

[Scott]

I've asked for opinions on this twice.
Physics911, by Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-Eleven, 9/11/2001

You didn't say anything about this either.
911 Truth Seekers-9/11 Inside Job: All Evidence, No Theories! - 9/11 Research Papers - 9/11 Research
I'm not going to comment on uncomfirmed uncorraborated speculatory articles from off the internet, it's a waste of my ****ing time.

Great rebuttal--you'd make a champion debator.

Is there anyone who believes the official version who would like to analyze this?
Physics911, by Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-Eleven, 9/11/2001
(excerpts)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even heard of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft — and in most cases the precise cause of the accident. This is because every military and civilian passenger-carrying aircraft have many parts that are identified for safety of flight. That is, if any of the parts were to fail at any time during a flight, the failure would likely result in the catastrophic loss of aircraft and passengers. Consequently, these parts are individually controlled by a distinctive serial number and tracked by a records section of the maintenance operation and by another section called plans and scheduling.
Following a certain number of flying hours or, in the case of landing gears, a certain number of takeoff-and-landing cycles, these critical parts are required to be changed, overhauled or inspected by specialist mechanics. When these parts are installed, their serial numbers are married to the aircraft registration numbers in the aircraft records and the plans and scheduling section will notify maintenance specialists when the parts must be replaced. If the parts are not replaced within specified time or cycle limits, the airplane will normally be grounded until the maintenance action is completed. Most of these time-change parts, whether hydraulic flight surface actuators , pumps, landing gears, engines or engine components, are virtually indestructible. It would be impossible for an ordinary fire resulting from an airplane crash to destroy or obliterate all of those critical time-change parts or their serial numbers. I repeat, impossible.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
American Airlines Flight 77
This was reported to be a Boeing 757, registration number N644AA, carrying 64 people, including the flight crew and five hijackers. This aircraft, with a 125-foot wingspan, was reported to have crashed into the Pentagon, leaving an entry hole no more than 65 feet wide.
Following cool-down of the resulting fire, this crash site would have been very easy to collect enough time-change equipment within 15 minutes to positively identify the aircraft registry. There was apparently some aerospace type of equipment found at the site but no attempt was made to produce serial numbers or to identify the specific parts found. Some of the equipment removed from the building was actually hidden from public view.
Conclusion
The government alleges that four wide-body airliners crashed on the morning of September 11 2001, resulting in the deaths of more than 3,000 human beings, yet not one piece of hard aircraft evidence has been produced in an attempt to positively identify any of the four aircraft. On the contrary, it seems only that all potential evidence was deliberately kept hidden from public view. The hard evidence would have included hundreds of critical time-change aircraft items, plus security videotapes that were confiscated by the FBI immediately following each tragic episode.
With all the evidence readily available at the Pentagon crash site, any unbiased rational investigator could only conclude that a Boeing 757 did not fly into the Pentagon as alleged. Similarly, with all the evidence available at the Pennsylvania crash site, it was most doubtful that a passenger airliner caused the obvious hole in the ground and certainly not the Boeing 757 as alleged. Regarding the planes that allegedly flew into the WTC towers, it is only just possible that heavy aircraft were involved in each incident, but no evidence has been produced that would add credence to the government’s theoretical version of what actually caused the total destruction of the buildings, let alone proving the identity of the aircraft. That is the problem with the government’s 911 story. It is time to apply the precautionary principle.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Please go into detail.

I already have on numerous occassions you just choose to ignore the undisputable evidence.

As far as I'm concerned, the evidence I presented refuted the evidence you presented. You only presented things that could be explained in several ways and you chose the way that fit your foregone conclusion. You avoid stuff you can't deal with such as the serial number issue.

I notice you can't comment on the sheer volume of people who would have had to involved in this massive conspiracy which gets larger with your every post.

As I said before--it would be difficult but not impossible. If someone makes a deathbed statement, the press will ignore it so it's not a problem for the government.
Here's something you should watch. It deals with that subject.
MasqueradeParty
Masquerade Party 2
Masquerade Party 3

There's a lot more good stuff here.
http://www.erichufschmid.net/

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Great rebuttal--you'd make a champion debator.

Is there anyone who believes the official version who would like to analyze this?
Physics911, by Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-Eleven, 9/11/2001
(excerpts)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even heard of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft — and in most cases the precise cause of the accident.

The flight recorders were recoverd for both flight 77 and flight 93, the reason why the flight recorders were not recovered for the planes that hit the towers are obvious.

As far as I'm concerned, the evidence I presented refuted the evidence you presented.

No it didn't because you didn't present any you simply made outlandish unsubstantiated claims of planted witnesses, planted wreckage, planted body parts, and forged rosters.

As I said before--it would be difficult but not impossible.

You're saying that it's not impossible to not only have Congress, the Executive branch, the CIA, the Pentagon, the F.B.I., the N.S.A., the F.A.A., N.O.R.AD., military intelligence, numerous foreign intelligence sources, the families of the victims, the ground controllers, the U.S. media, the eyewitnesses to the crash, A.Q. and O.B.L., all involved in the conspiracy, but also to keep them all silent?

 

[Scott]

The flight recorders were recoverd for both flight 77 and flight 93, the reason why the flight recorders were not recovered for the planes that hit the towers are obvious.

These could have easily been planted. What about something with a serial number?

As far as I'm concerned, the evidence I presented refuted the evidence you presented.

No it didn't because you didn't present any you simply made outlandish unsubstantiated claims of planted witnesses, planted wreckage, planted body parts, and forged rosters.

What I said was that body parts and matching plane parts and records are not conclusive proof as records can be falsified and plane and body parts and whole bodies can be planted. The proof I offered was the picture of the nose of the plane that hit the Pentagon and the picture of the side of the Pentagon before the collpapse.

As I said before--it would be difficult but not impossible.

You're saying that it's not impossible to not only have Congress, the Executive branch, the CIA, the Pentagon, the F.B.I., the N.S.A., the F.A.A., N.O.R.AD., military intelligence, numerous foreign intelligence sources, the families of the victims, the ground controllers, the U.S. media, the eyewitnesses to the crash, A.Q. and O.B.L., all involved in the conspiracy, but also to keep them all silent?

It is very possible. Please watch the video in my last post.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

These could have easily been planted.

How?

What about something with a serial number?

I'm pretty sure flight data recorders have serial numbers on them.

What I said was that body parts and matching plane parts and records are not conclusive proof as records can be falsified and plane and body parts and whole bodies can be planted.

A) How do you plant body parts and tons of airplane wreckage in a burning building without any of the 100's of onlookers with video and still frame cameras noticing it and capturing it on film?

B) Who planted these body and plane parts?

C) If the records were falsified why did the families corraborate that the rosters were accurate?

The proof I offered was the picture of the nose of the plane that hit the Pentagon and the picture of the side of the Pentagon before the collpapse.

Yes your conclusive blurr and your picture of the interior hole that you claimed was the exterior hole. Have you been to the poll on the blurr photo? 9 people see a blurr while on the other hand 4 see Elvis.

It is very possible. Please watch the video in my last post.

No it's not ****ing possible and anyone who thinks it is is delsusional. And what part of MY VOLUME IS BROKEN do you not understand? You watch the video and explain to me how it's possible there buddy I'm all ears.

 

[Scott]

These could have easily been planted.
How?

I can't believe you're asking this question. They are very small. Something small is easy to plant in wreckage.

What about something with a serial number?

I'm pretty sure flight data recorders have serial numbers on them.

It's possible to falsify serial numbers in advance.

A) How do you plant body parts and tons of airplane wreckage in a burning building without any of the 100's of onlookers with video and still frame cameras noticing it and capturing it on film?

I've already said the body parts could have been planted before the crash. Some of them might have been on the craft that hit the Pentagon. There were supposedly some people in the part of the building the plane hit. You seem to be forgetting what I posted before. You're asking the same questions over and over as if we hadn't dealt with this yet.

B) Who planted these body and plane parts?

You are acting like a desperate person. Conspirators planted the body parts.

C) If the records were falsified why did the families corraborate that the rosters were accurate?

I'm not sure what you're referring to. What did they say was accurate?

The proof I offered was the picture of the nose of the plane that hit the Pentagon and the picture of the side of the Pentagon before the collpapse.

Yes your conclusive blurr and your picture of the interior hole that you claimed was the exterior hole. Have you been to the poll on the blurr photo? 9 people see a blurr while on the other hand 4 see Elvis.

Well, it wouldn't be realistic to think you'd admit you were cornered. I expect more answers like this.

It is very possible. Please watch the video in my last post.
No it's not ****ing possible and anyone who thinks it is is delsusional. And what part of MY VOLUME IS BROKEN do you not understand? You watch the video and explain to me how it's possible there buddy I'm all ears.

I think you have already watched them and you don't want to deal with it. I'm mainly posting stuff to share with the viewers anyway. I think you're a shill who knows that 9/11 was an inside job. I'm not going to spend time summarizing something people can just watch.
There are a lot of government people who don't seem to be in on the conspiracy.
Patriots Question 9/11 - Responsible Criticism of the 9/11 Commission Report
Is the press mentioning this? I don't read the American press every day here in Madrid.

None of you wants to deal with this.
Physics911, by Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-Eleven, 9/11/2001

You're obviously not objective truth-seekers. You have a foregone conclusion and you ignore evidence that doesn't lead to it. It's glaringly obvious. You can pretend all you want but you've got no credibility.

 

[Sergeant Stinger1]

Hey! I wouldn't put anything past our "GOV" but reaching that far out is pushing things.
And besides, look at the idiots in our Gov and tell me they could pull that off.:mrgreen:

 

[Chanda]

reaching that far out is pushing things.

Why is it "pushing things"? Operation Northwoods, a similar plan, was nearly implemented in 1962, so it isn't as far-fetched as you think. It makes us uncomfortable to think "it could happen here," and it makes us feel like conspiracy theorists, but the least likely 9/11 theory is the official one. We just need to look at the facts objectively.

And besides, look at the idiots in our Gov and tell me they could pull that off.:mrgreen:

Actually, they have been able to pull off a number of things with the complicity of the media. When I observed how the 2000 election was blatantly stolen, I became aware that these people were capable of anything.

 

[Sergeant Stinger1]

Why is it "pushing things"? Operation Northwoods, a similar plan, was nearly implemented in 1962, so it isn't as far-fetched as you think. It makes us uncomfortable to think "it could happen here," and it makes us feel like conspiracy theorists, but the least likely 9/11 theory is the official one. We just need to look at the facts objectively.



Actually, they have been able to pull off a number of things with the complicity of the media. When I observed how the 2000 election was blatantly stolen, I became aware that these people were capable of anything.

_____
Na! I still think that they are to dumb to do that and if they did they stupidly would have braged about it and we would know about it.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Why is it "pushing things"? Operation Northwoods, a similar plan, was nearly implemented in 1962, so it isn't as far-fetched as you think. It makes us uncomfortable to think "it could happen here," and it makes us feel like conspiracy theorists, but the least likely 9/11 theory is the official one. We just need to look at the facts objectively.

A) Operation Northwoods was rejected and the man responsible was fired.

B) The fact that we're talking about it proves that noone could have kept a conspiracy of that magnitude a secret and this one didn't even go through.

Actually, they have been able to pull off a number of things with the complicity of the media. When I observed how the 2000 election was blatantly stolen, I became aware that these people were capable of anything.

If by stolen you mean following the Constitution then you're right the government is capable of acting within the guidelines of that perfect document.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I can't believe you're asking this question. They are very small. Something small is easy to plant in wreckage.

Umm how did they get the the flight recorders off the plane and into the Pentagon?

It's possible to falsify serial numbers in advance.

Wow first you say "how about something with serial numbers" and now you say serial numbers don't mean anything.

I've already said the body parts could have been planted before the crash. Some of them might have been on the craft that hit the Pentagon. There were supposedly some people in the part of the building the plane hit. You seem to be forgetting what I posted before. You're asking the same questions over and over as if we hadn't dealt with this yet.

A) How could the body parts from flight 77 been transferred to the Pentagon and planted there within an hour of take off and the crash?

B) That doesn't explain the tons of airplane wreckage matching a 757.

You are acting like a desperate person. Conspirators planted the body parts.

Nameless faceless "conspirators," well that answers my question. :roll: Tell me how these conspirators got the body parts and tons of airplane wreckage into the pentagon (the most secure building in the world) in less than an hour and a half.

I'm not sure what you're referring to. What did they say was accurate?

The flight rosters.

Well, it wouldn't be realistic to think you'd admit you were cornered. I expect more answers like this.
[/quote]

Umm I wasn't cornered so far everyone on this site including those who have prescribed to the inside job theory in the past have asserted that they see a blurr.

I think you have already watched them and you don't want to deal with it. I'm mainly posting stuff to share with the viewers anyway. I think you're a shill who knows that 9/11 was an inside job. I'm not going to spend time summarizing something people can just watch.

O.K. so in other words you can't explain how Congress, the Executive branch, the CIA, the Pentagon, the F.B.I., the N.S.A., the F.A.A., N.O.R.AD., military intelligence, numerous foreign intelligence sources, the families of the victims, the ground controllers, the U.S. media, the eyewitnesses to the crash, A.Q. and O.B.L., are all involved in the conspiracy, and have also been kept silent.

 

[Chanda]

A) Operation Northwoods was rejected and the man responsible was fired.

Operation Northwoods wasn't the brainchild of only one man. It was proposed by senior U.S. Department of Defense leaders.

The fact that we're talking about it proves that noone could have kept a conspiracy of that magnitude a secret and this one didn't even go through.

No, we are talking about it only because President Kennedy was assassinated.

The previously secret document was originally made public on November 18, 1997 by the John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Review Board,[2] a U.S. federal agency overseeing the release of government records related to John F. Kennedy's assassination

Operation Northwoods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If by stolen you mean following the Constitution then you're right the government is capable of acting within the guidelines of that perfect document.

No, by "stolen," I mean counting illegal ballots, rejecting legal ballots, suppressing opposition voters, and intimidating election workers to stop a recount.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Operation Northwoods wasn't the brainchild of only one man. It was proposed by senior U.S. Department of Defense leaders.

Operation Northwoods would not have had a 0 casualty count, the 9-11 attacks could have killed upwards of 50,000 U.S. citizens.

No, we are talking about it only because President Kennedy was assassinated.

The previously secret document was originally made public on November 18, 1997 by the John F. Kennedy Assassination Records Review Board,[2] a U.S. federal agency overseeing the release of government records related to John F. Kennedy's assassination

Operation Northwoods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Bottom line it was unable to be kept a secret and if it had actually been implemented you better believe we would have been talking about it long before 1997, just look at the wiretapping and the rendition program which was leaked to the NYT's.

Anyone who believes that a conspiracy that would have to involve thousands of people from Congress, the Executive branch, the CIA, the Pentagon, the F.B.I., the N.S.A., the F.A.A., N.O.R.AD., the D.O.D., D.O.S., military intelligence, numerous foreign intelligence sources, the families of the victims, the ground controllers, the U.S. media, the eyewitnesses to the crash, not to mention, A.Q. and O.B.L., could be kept silent let alone occur in the first place is ****ing delusional.

No, by "stolen," I mean counting illegal ballots, rejecting legal ballots, suppressing opposition voters, and intimidating election workers to stop a recount.

That's a load of crap and has been thoroughly debunked over and over on this site it was the illegal recounts that were stopped and that decision was upheld by the SCOTUS and recounts have been held that proved GWB won in Fl., you lost get over it.

 

[Chanda]

Operation Northwoods would not have had a 0 casualty count, the 9-11 attacks could have killed upwards of 50,000 U.S. citizens.

Did you mean to say Operation Northwoods would have had 0 casualties? There is no way for you to know that. This is one description:

'Operation Northwoods, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war."

Operation Northwoods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's a load of crap and has been thoroughly debunked over and over on this site it was the illegal recounts that were stopped and that decision was upheld by the SCOTUS and recounts have been held that proved GWB won in Fl., you lost get over it.

Wrong, the NORC recount--the only recount to include all legal votes--found Gore had more votes by any standard of counting. The Supreme Court justices stipulated that decision was never to be used as a precedent in any future case. That's how sound it was.

Anyone who believes that a conspiracy... could be kept silent let alone occur in the first place is ****ing delusional.

It hasn't been kept silent. Eyewitnesses have provided oral histories that corroborate demolitions:

9-11 Research: Oral Histories

Furthermore, the administration has been caught in at least one lie claiming there were no warnings. Rice lied when she said, "Nobody could have foreseen Bin Laden flying Airplanes into buildings." What a coincidence that the Pentagon was staging a drill for just such an event on the morning of 9/11!

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Did you mean to say Operation Northwoods would have had 0 casualties? There is no way for you to know that. This is one description:

'Operation Northwoods, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war."

Operation Northwoods - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Wrong, the NORC recount--the only recount to include all legal votes--found Gore had more votes by any standard of counting. The Supreme Court justices stipulated that decision was never to be used as a precedent in any future case. That's how sound it was.



It hasn't been kept silent. Eyewitnesses have provided oral histories that corroborate demolitions:

9-11 Research: Oral Histories

Furthermore, the administration has been caught in at least one lie claiming there were no warnings. Rice lied when she said, "Nobody could have foreseen Bin Laden flying Airplanes into buildings." What a coincidence that the Pentagon was staging a drill for just such an event on the morning of 9/11!

A) If carried out operation Northwood would have consisted of 0 citizen casualties.

B) The SCOTUS ruled on the decision so quit rewriting history.

C) You are suffering from a severe case of BDS.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I wish I could call up the trilateral commission and take a black helo over to your people's house, and pfft pfft pfft, and then walk out. How's that for a career choice Scott? How do you like me now?

 

[ashurbanipal]

Anyone who believes that a conspiracy that would have to involve thousands of people from Congress, the Executive branch, the CIA, the Pentagon, the F.B.I., the N.S.A., the F.A.A., N.O.R.AD., the D.O.D., D.O.S., military intelligence, numerous foreign intelligence sources, the families of the victims, the ground controllers, the U.S. media, the eyewitnesses to the crash, not to mention, A.Q. and O.B.L., could be kept silent let alone occur in the first place is ****ing delusional.

Not so fast--I've posted twice now in threads like this, in direct response to you, that 9/11 could have been carried out by roughly 60 people. Fewer if there were no demolitions. I have provided widely acknowledged historical examples of conspiracies that were larger and kept secret. I have also pointed out, as Chanda has also done, that whistleblowers have come forward with direct knowledge of the conspiracy, though they are typically ignored. Since every time I've brought up these points, you've never responded with anything more than name-calling, I will repeat my lists here in this thread. Perhaps you or (more likely) someone else will be able to offer intelligent counter-debate.

9/11 scenario involving about 60 people:

You'd need:

1) Dick Cheney, Condi Rice, Donald Rumsfeld, John Ashcroft. They're all needed to issue orders or divert attention within their areas of authority. 4 people.

2) A couple case officers and one or two EDI's from the CIA to run general interference, issue orders to contract agents, and divert attention. 4 people.

3) The head of the (now defunct) RFU at FBI, and probably one or two assistant directors, again, to issue orders and divert attention as necessary. Probably also at least one brick agent on the ground in Florida. 4 people.

4) Demolitions team (assuming demolitions), for obvious reasons. Probably recruited from the army and eliminated later. They might well have thought that by wiring the buildings, they were doing a public service. 15 people.

5) The head of Northcom, to help coordinate interference with normal intercept procedures that morning. 1 person.

6) The heads of the Senate and House Select Committees on intelligence, to keep Congress in line and quash investigation. 2 people.

7) Someone with security connections at the WTC and Pentagon sites, to divert attention from preparations. 2 people.

8) The supervisors of the ATCs at Dulles, Boston, and JFK, to keep a lid on the ATCs and also to keep them from coordinating an appropriate response. 3
people.

9) You'd probably have to have some people working for the AP wire services to manage journalism on the ground, but it wouldn't be absolutely necessary. Let's say 3 people.

10) Supervisors of the SS details for Bush and Cheney-2 people.

11) Probably a couple people in the NSA just to divert attention or quash investigation. 2 people.

13) The hijackers, obviously. 19 people.

And that's it; that's 61 people. Other people would be involved, but they wouldn't need to know what they were up to. For instance, when Colleen Rowley was ordered by the head of the FSU, Dave Frasca, to stop her investigation of Moussaoui, she was cooperating with the conspiracy by complying with the order. But as she did so prior to 9/11, she certainly was not in on it in the same way Mr. Frasca probably was.

And she is one of the people I would name among the whistleblowers. Her letter to Robert Mueller is quite enlightening. You can read the entire thing here:

TIME Magazine: The Bombshell Memo

Among other people who have come forward to describe well-nigh inexplicable behavior on the part of those expected to protect us are: Indira Singh, Michael Springman, Randy Glass, Dave Schippers, Garth Nicholson, Robert Wright, Steve Butler, and Sibel Edmonds. There are others I'm forgetting, I'm sure.

Other, much larger, conspiracies have been kept secret much longer. Just to provide a few examples:

1) The holocaust.
2) The Manhattan Project.
3) The NSA.
4) Iran-Contra.

So the notion that 9/11 couldn't have been a conspiracy is absurd.

 

[ARealConservative]

Other, much larger, conspiracies have been kept secret much longer. Just to provide a few examples:

1) The holocaust.

So the notion that 9/11 couldn't have been a conspiracy is absurd.

How is the holocaust a conspiracy? I understand he actual numbers dead has been politicized - but it requires more then minor exaggeration to form a conspiracy.

 

[ashurbanipal]

How is the holocaust a conspiracy? I understand he actual numbers dead has been politicized - but it requires more then minor exaggeration to form a conspiracy.

Well, just what is a conspiracy? It just requires that 2 or more people agree to act together to acheive some end, and to keep the knowledge of what they're doing either partially or fully concealed from those not of the conspiracy.

The Nazis had a simple goal: the elimination of European Jewry. They built death camps, the true purpose of which were concealed not only from other nations, but from the majority of German citizens as well (though in the latter case, it didn't take too much concealing, but that's another matter). However, to execute the holocaust, a vast number of people had to be involved and had to have reasonably complete knowledge of what was happening. Involved were:

1) Top nazi brass, including Hitler, Goebbels, Roehme, Himmler, Goering, Heydrich, Brunner, Hoesse, etc.

2) A large number (probably several hundred) of senior and intermediate bureacrats: Eichmann, Goethe, the Stangl brothers, Kurt Gerstein (who was later a whistleblower), Christian Wirth, etc.

3) Probably most members of the Einsatzgruppen, who numbered in the thousands.

4) And it's likely that quite a few nazi party officials, secretaries, merchants, lower-level bureacrats, etc. all knew and cooperated.

At the very least, I think it's reasonable to estimate that probably about 10,000 people other than the victims knew not only the scope but also the methods and progress of the holocaust. Those 10,000 (at least) knew, approved, and helped commit a monstrosity. They worked actively to keep what they were doing as silent as possible.

 

[Prezken]

Scott, we know where you live, we have traced your ip address. There is nowhere to run, as you will only delay the inevitable. You know too much and must be stopped. See you soon...... :blowup:


Signed, Conspiracy Agent 007





















Seriously, did you escape from a mental hospital? I think we all should start calling around and see if anyone has been reported missing. That can be the only rational explanation. Either you are an escaped mental patient or you need to be a mental patient. :rofl

 

[Lerxst]

Not so fast--I've posted twice now in threads like this, in direct response to you, that 9/11 could have been carried out by roughly 60 people. Fewer if there were no demolitions. I have provided widely acknowledged historical examples of conspiracies that were larger and kept secret. I have also pointed out, as Chanda has also done, that whistleblowers have come forward with direct knowledge of the conspiracy, though they are typically ignored. Since every time I've brought up these points, you've never responded with anything more than name-calling, I will repeat my lists here in this thread. Perhaps you or (more likely) someone else will be able to offer intelligent counter-debate.

9/11 scenario involving about 60 people:

You'd need:

1) Dick Cheney, Condi Rice, Donald Rumsfeld, John Ashcroft. They're all needed to issue orders or divert attention within their areas of authority. 4 people.

2) A couple case officers and one or two EDI's from the CIA to run general interference, issue orders to contract agents, and divert attention. 4 people.

3) The head of the (now defunct) RFU at FBI, and probably one or two assistant directors, again, to issue orders and divert attention as necessary. Probably also at least one brick agent on the ground in Florida. 4 people.

4) Demolitions team (assuming demolitions), for obvious reasons. Probably recruited from the army and eliminated later. They might well have thought that by wiring the buildings, they were doing a public service. 15 people.

5) The head of Northcom, to help coordinate interference with normal intercept procedures that morning. 1 person.

6) The heads of the Senate and House Select Committees on intelligence, to keep Congress in line and quash investigation. 2 people.

7) Someone with security connections at the WTC and Pentagon sites, to divert attention from preparations. 2 people.

8) The supervisors of the ATCs at Dulles, Boston, and JFK, to keep a lid on the ATCs and also to keep them from coordinating an appropriate response. 3
people.

9) You'd probably have to have some people working for the AP wire services to manage journalism on the ground, but it wouldn't be absolutely necessary. Let's say 3 people.

10) Supervisors of the SS details for Bush and Cheney-2 people.

11) Probably a couple people in the NSA just to divert attention or quash investigation. 2 people.

13) The hijackers, obviously. 19 people.

And that's it; that's 61 people. Other people would be involved, but they wouldn't need to know what they were up to. For instance, when Colleen Rowley was ordered by the head of the FSU, Dave Frasca, to stop her investigation of Moussaoui, she was cooperating with the conspiracy by complying with the order. But as she did so prior to 9/11, she certainly was not in on it in the same way Mr. Frasca probably was.

And she is one of the people I would name among the whistleblowers. Her letter to Robert Mueller is quite enlightening. You can read the entire thing here:

TIME Magazine: The Bombshell Memo

Among other people who have come forward to describe well-nigh inexplicable behavior on the part of those expected to protect us are: Indira Singh, Michael Springman, Randy Glass, Dave Schippers, Garth Nicholson, Robert Wright, Steve Butler, and Sibel Edmonds. There are others I'm forgetting, I'm sure.

Other, much larger, conspiracies have been kept secret much longer. Just to provide a few examples:

1) The holocaust.
2) The Manhattan Project.
3) The NSA.
4) Iran-Contra.

So the notion that 9/11 couldn't have been a conspiracy is absurd.

Multiply this number by about 100 and you might have something...maybe. But probably not.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Not so fast--I've posted twice now in threads like this, in direct response to you, that 9/11 could have been carried out by roughly 60 people. Fewer if there were no demolitions. I have provided widely acknowledged historical examples of conspiracies that were larger and kept secret. I have also pointed out, as Chanda has also done, that whistleblowers have come forward with direct knowledge of the conspiracy, though they are typically ignored. Since every time I've brought up these points, you've never responded with anything more than name-calling, I will repeat my lists here in this thread. Perhaps you or (more likely) someone else will be able to offer intelligent counter-debate.

9/11 scenario involving about 60 people:

You'd need:

1) Dick Cheney, Condi Rice, Donald Rumsfeld, John Ashcroft. They're all needed to issue orders or divert attention within their areas of authority. 4 people.

2) A couple case officers and one or two EDI's from the CIA to run general interference, issue orders to contract agents, and divert attention. 4 people.

3) The head of the (now defunct) RFU at FBI, and probably one or two assistant directors, again, to issue orders and divert attention as necessary. Probably also at least one brick agent on the ground in Florida. 4 people.

4) Demolitions team (assuming demolitions), for obvious reasons. Probably recruited from the army and eliminated later. They might well have thought that by wiring the buildings, they were doing a public service. 15 people.

5) The head of Northcom, to help coordinate interference with normal intercept procedures that morning. 1 person.

6) The heads of the Senate and House Select Committees on intelligence, to keep Congress in line and quash investigation. 2 people.

7) Someone with security connections at the WTC and Pentagon sites, to divert attention from preparations. 2 people.

8) The supervisors of the ATCs at Dulles, Boston, and JFK, to keep a lid on the ATCs and also to keep them from coordinating an appropriate response. 3
people.

9) You'd probably have to have some people working for the AP wire services to manage journalism on the ground, but it wouldn't be absolutely necessary. Let's say 3 people.

10) Supervisors of the SS details for Bush and Cheney-2 people.

11) Probably a couple people in the NSA just to divert attention or quash investigation. 2 people.

13) The hijackers, obviously. 19 people.

You think that that 1 or 2 people within the organizations you listed could really have done all those things you give them credit for? And you left out a whole bunch of stuff for example the F.A.A. and the coroners in D.C..

And that's it; that's 61 people. Other people would be involved, but they wouldn't need to know what they were up to. For instance, when Colleen Rowley was ordered by the head of the FSU, Dave Frasca, to stop her investigation of Moussaoui, she was cooperating with the conspiracy by complying with the order. But as she did so prior to 9/11, she certainly was not in on it in the same way Mr. Frasca probably was.

Umm so the SCOTUS was in on the conspiracy too when they created the Quarles "public safety" exception in 1966? This thing goes much deeper than anyone could imagine. :roll:

Other, much larger, conspiracies have been kept secret much longer. Just to provide a few examples:

1) The holocaust.
2) The Manhattan Project.
3) The NSA.
4) Iran-Contra.

So the notion that 9/11 couldn't have been a conspiracy is absurd.

With the exception of the NSA none of those things was kept secret longer than 9-11.

 

[ashurbanipal]

Multiply this number by about 100 and you might have something...maybe. But probably not.

Multiply what number?

 

[ashurbanipal]

You think that that 1 or 2 people within the organizations you listed could really have done all those things you give them credit for?

I do. That was part of the reason I mentioned Dave Frasca. He was the head of the Radical Fundamentalism Unit at the FBI prior to 9/11. He was responsible for stopping at least 4 investigations that could have uncovered 9/11. Colleen Rowley's letter concerns one of the four. I can document the other three if you like, but the point is that one person, placed carefully, can affect alot of others. This is neither amazing nor unusual.

Prior to 9/11, all investigations to do with terrorism inside the United States went through the RFU. The RFU at FBIHQ gave orders to the field agents responsible for prosecuting the investigations, and had the authority to tell agents to not pursue those investigations (which it did).

Similar bottlenecks exist in all organizations; indeed, they are part and parcel of how organizations function--this is called authority. Some person X is in charge of all affairs to do with some domain Y. Therefore, decisions about affairs in that domain are left to person X.

In the case of the FBI, Dave Frasca reported directly to an assistant director, which means any complaints about SA Frasca also landed in that assistant director's lap. If you just get those two guys in on the conspiracy (or better yet, appoint two people already on board into those positions), that's all that is needed. The other agents, out there doing investigations, can be throwing their hands up and screaming bloody murder left and right--which they apparently were--and it will not make a difference. Those field agents are cooperating unwittingly.

And you left out a whole bunch of stuff for example the F.A.A. and the coroners in D.C..

Why would either of those be needed?

Umm so the SCOTUS was in on the conspiracy too when they created the Quarles "public safety" exception in 1966? This thing goes much deeper than anyone could imagine.

No. What I said would have entailed exactly the opposite of that. I'll try to explain again:

The way conspiracies are executed is that few people in the conspiracy know everything there is to know. And many people are made to cooperate with the conspiracy without even knowing about it. To dwell again on the FBI--when the RFU told its field agents to stop investigating someone, those field agents were unwittingly cooperating. They didn't know there was a conspiracy, and probably wouldn't have gone along had they known. The only thing necessary from the point of view of the conspiracy is that one guy, the head of the RFU, was in on it and was able to direct other people's actions.

With the exception of the NSA none of those things was kept secret longer than 9-11.

1) 9/11 is hardly a secret any longer.

2) The holocaust began in 1934 (IIRC) and wasn't revealed until 1945. 11 years. Moreover, had the allies not prevailed, it might well still be a secret.

3) The manhattan project began in 1939, ended in 1945, so you are right, but only trivially so. It seems likely that it could have been kept secret indefinitely. There were no imminent security breaches before Hiroshima.

4) No one knows exactly how long Iran Contra had been going on, or even whether it's really shut down at this point. No one knows who all the players were or what they did. So I don't know why you would exclude this one. Seems to me, it's still largely a secret.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

I do. That was part of the reason I mentioned Dave Frasca. He was the head of the Radical Fundamentalism Unit at the FBI prior to 9/11. He was responsible for stopping at least 4 investigations that could have uncovered 9/11. Colleen Rowley's letter concerns one of the four. I can document the other three if you like, but the point is that one person, placed carefully, can affect alot of others. This is neither amazing nor unusual.

Prior to 9/11, all investigations to do with terrorism inside the United States went through the RFU. The RFU at FBIHQ gave orders to the field agents responsible for prosecuting the investigations, and had the authority to tell agents to not pursue those investigations (which it did).

No it told them to obey a SCOTUS ruling pertaining to miranda rights.

Similar bottlenecks exist in all organizations;

Name one.

indeed, they are part and parcel of how organizations function--this is called authority. Some person X is in charge of all affairs to do with some domain Y. Therefore, decisions about affairs in that domain are left to person X.

In the case of the FBI, Dave Frasca reported directly to an assistant director, which means any complaints about SA Frasca also landed in that assistant director's lap. If you just get those two guys in on the conspiracy (or better yet, appoint two people already on board into those positions), that's all that is needed. The other agents, out there doing investigations, can be throwing their hands up and screaming bloody murder left and right--which they apparently were--and it will not make a difference. Those field agents are cooperating unwittingly.

There is no way a false flag operation of this magnitude could have occurred with as few people with direct knowledge as you claim, it would have taken 100's of people to set the explosives in the WTC's alone.

Why would either of those be needed?

It depends if you believe in the "no plane," theory of the pentagon because if you do then you would need the ground controllers in Cleveland and the coroner who matched the body parts with the plane rosters. I also left out OBL and Zawahiri who have admitted to the deed.


No. What I said would have entailed exactly the opposite of that. I'll try to explain again:

[/quote]

No because following the law established by the SCOTUS is simply that IE following the law, it was the Quarles decision of the SCOTUS which prevented further questioning of Moussawi.

2) The holocaust began in 1934 (IIRC) and wasn't revealed until 1945. 11 years. Moreover, had the allies not prevailed, it might well still be a secret.

The holcaust didn't begin in 1934 for starters, and secondly many people knew about it during the war, there was even an ally plan to bomb one of the camps but was deemed to risky not to mention that there was no free press in Nazi Germany which was a totalitarian police state at the time.

3) The manhattan project began in 1939, ended in 1945, so you are right, but only trivially so. It seems likely that it could have been kept secret indefinitely. There were no imminent security breaches before Hiroshima.

Actually Stalin knew about it before we even dropped the bomb.

4) No one knows exactly how long Iran Contra had been going on, or even whether it's really shut down at this point. No one knows who all the players were or what they did. So I don't know why you would exclude this one. Seems to me, it's still largely a secret.

umm the Contras no longer even exist so what are you talking about? It wasn't kept a secret anyways there were even congressional hearings about it.

 

[ashurbanipal]

No it told them to obey a SCOTUS ruling pertaining to miranda rights.

I'm not sure what you mean. Read paragraph 3 of Colleen Rowley's letter, linked above. It had nothing to do with Miranda rights.

Ash:Similar bottlenecks exist in all organizations;

TOT:Name one.

Well, in the company I work for, I am the database director. That means that all decisions that pertain to any of our databases are my responsibility. No one does anything to any database without my say-so, though in the case of routine updates, my approval is tacit.

I work with a marketing director, who has similar responsibility over our marketing efforts. I work with an operations director, who has similar responsibility for our store operations. I work with an HR director, who has similar responsibility over our benefits and payroll. I work with a purchasing director who has similar responsibility over our inventory procurement. And so on. Other companies I've worked for operate in a similar manner. Any of us could further a conspiracy in our respective domains, or by cooperating, across domains, without our employees knowing anything about it.

There is no way a false flag operation of this magnitude could have occurred with as few people with direct knowledge as you claim, it would have taken 100's of people to set the explosives in the WTC's alone.

I don't think so, for a couple reasons (and I preface this by saying that I'm not entirely convinced the Twin Towers were blown up--I think they probably were, but there's reasonable doubt):

1) If the towers were blown, then it was obviously a rush job. They didn't collapse the way a normal implosion happens--though the rub is they didn't collapse the way they should have had their structures had simply failed. This means that if they were wired, they were wired for overkill. It wouldn't have taken months of planning the way a traditional implosion does. The idea would have been to bring the buildings down without toppling them over, but otherwise, they can be exploded any which way. The solution would be to just wire some very large bombs every ten floors or so.

2) So let's figure that each core column got 20 pounds of C4 and thermate every ten floors (it wouldn't be quite that neat, but probably close). Let's also figure that each member of a demolitions team could push about 100 pounds of explosives ahead of them, disguised in toolboxes on a maintenance cart or something.

That's 9800 pounds of explosives per building. Divide by 100 to get 98 total trips from a cache of explosives on the ground into each building. Spread over a team of, say, ten guys actually wiring the buildings, that's slightly fewer than ten total trips per man into each building.

Now, if you figure 490 total charges set per building, and you figure that each one took about half an hour (again, remember we're not going for surgical precision, here. The only requirement is that the buildings don't topple over) to set, then that works out to about 25 hours of work setting the bombs, plus you figure an hour for each trip back to the cache on the ground, and an extra ten hours for who-knows-what so 45 hours of work per building for a fifteen man team--ten to set bombs, five to supervise and coordinate. This could easily have been done provided someone in the right place on the security team was there to run interference.

It depends if you believe in the "no plane," theory of the pentagon because if you do then you would need the ground controllers in Cleveland and the coroner who matched the body parts with the plane rosters.

I'm not sure about the no-plane theory. Something weird did happen at Cleveland, but I'm more inclined to think that that was another to-be-hijacked plane rather than flight 77.

I don't know how no-planers get around the eyewitness reports of the airplane hitting the pentagon. What I am convinced of is that the surveillance video does not show a 757 impacting the pentagon. Currently, I am unable to draw conclusions about what this means, so it's a mystery. I'm not sure how important it is; I think the no-plane theory is possible, but unlikely. If forced to answer, I would say that flight 77 did hit the pentagon.

I also left out OBL and Zawahiri who have admitted to the deed.

The tape of OBL admitting to 9/11 is an obvious forgery. Even cursory comparison between the man in that video and other pictures of Bin Laden are enough to show this.

But even if you add them, that's 63 people. Still not a huge conspiracy. Even if you allow a 100% margin for stuff I might not have thought of, that's 106 people, still entirely manageable.

No because following the law established by the SCOTUS is simply that IE following the law, it was the Quarles decision of the SCOTUS which prevented further questioning of Moussawi.

Even if that were the case, that wouldn't imply that SCOTUS was in on the conspiracy. I don't think they were. The reason given by the RFU for halting the Moussaoui investigation was that probable cause didn't exist. The field agents couldn't have been trying to invoke Quarles since they were seeking a warrant.

The holcaust didn't begin in 1934 for starters, and secondly many people knew about it during the war, there was even an ally plan to bomb one of the camps but was deemed to risky not to mention that there was no free press in Nazi Germany which was a totalitarian police state at the time.

1) Dachau opened in March of 1933, came under control of the SS in April or May of 1933, began systematic executions in October of 1933. However, it could be argued that because the prisoners there were transfers from other prisons, the holocaust did not really begin until the summer of 1934, when Dachau began to receive shipments of newly interned prisoners, about half of them Jews. The numbers were relatively small--in the thousands--as Dachau was the model area where methods were still being worked out. I don't recall the exact date, but it was in 1934 that the first ethnic prisoners arrived.

2) Yes, many people knew about it during the war, just as many people know that 9/11 was an inside conspiracy. However, the full extent of the holocaust was not known until April of 1945.

Actually Stalin knew about it before we even dropped the bomb.

As did Churchill and his ministers. We told our allies we were developing the bomb, but the point is it didn't become common knowledge until August of 1945. Stalin was not about to send the Japanese a telegram to be on the lookout for the Enola Gay.

umm the Contras no longer even exist so what are you talking about?

I meant that the basic financial and operational model--i.e. selling arms and drugs to finance rebel groups in Central and South America, brokered by the U.S., and maybe with the same players or their successors--could still be occurring, and probably is.

It wasn't kept a secret anyways there were even congressional hearings about it.

Yes, but if you study the history of it, it becomes pretty clear that those hearings didn't work to expose everyone involved.