5th Circuit issues temporary halt to Biden vaccine mandate

[OpportunityCost]

No I'm not. I'm arguing that forcing people to be vaccinated protects others in the workplace. Do hard hats eliminate all head injuries on the job? Of course not. Do they prevent head injuries on the job? Obviously.

You are incorrect on spread. The majority of cases, hospitalizations and deaths are still the unvaccinated.

Does the vaccination actually prevent spread? Thats the question and the center for the rationale of the mandate. The answer is no so the mandate should also be a no.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Does the vaccination actually prevent spread? Thats the question and the center for the rationale of the mandate. The answer is no so the mandate should also be a no.

No. You can still carry the virus and spread it.

 

[mrjurrs]

Does the vaccination actually prevent spread? Thats the question and the center for the rationale of the mandate. The answer is no so the mandate should also be a no.

I'll need a source for 'the vaccination does not prevent spread'. Again, you believe we would be in the same position (or better) if we had not gotten the vaccine?

 

[OpportunityCost]

I'll need a source for 'the vaccination does not prevent spread'. Again, you believe we would be in the same position (or better) if we had not gotten the vaccine?

It lessens the effects. The body fights the disease more effectively. Again you aren't even speaking to the same issue. Whether better or not, the principle reason for the mandate is stated to control the virus and prevent risk to other coworkers. The vaccines do not do that, they mitigate the effects for those vaccinated.

 

[jonny5]

The Democrats are arguing the OSHA could order as a condition of employment with proof that all men are circumcised, female employees are on contraceptives, employees are taking the prescription to stop being able to spread HIV, all are tested for STDs and have none, and any other medical treatment the demand. Pure non-legislative totalitarianism and authoritarianism.

For income now a person isn't deciding whether they are willing to be an employee only while at work, but picking between having food and housing or being a slave 24/7 as the government demands their employers require.

It seems pretty simple. There is no power in the constitution granted to congress to regulate workplace safety, much less healthcare. If people want the federal govt to do those things, pass an amendment. But they never do because they know the 3/4 of the states wouldnt approve it. The federal govts powers are extremely limited and congress doesnt care. They passed these bills creating huge sprawling departments involved in the states and peoples lives from cradle to grave, and neither the courts, the exec, the states, nor the sheep themselves stopped it.

 

[mrjurrs]

It lessens the effects. The body fights the disease more effectively. Again you aren't even speaking to the same issue. Whether better or not, the principle reason for the mandate is stated to control the virus and prevent risk to other coworkers. The vaccines do not do that, they mitigate the effects for those vaccinated.

You don't understand what vaccines do.
"Most people who get COVID-19 are unvaccinated. However, since vaccines are not 100% effective at preventing infection, some people who are fully vaccinated will still get COVID-19. An infection of a fully vaccinated person is referred to as a “breakthrough infection.”

COVID-19 Vaccination

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.

www.cdc.gov

While not 100% effective at preventing infections, they are most definitely more effective at it than being unvaccinated is.

 

[mrjurrs]

It lessens the effects. The body fights the disease more effectively. Again you aren't even speaking to the same issue. Whether better or not, the principle reason for the mandate is stated to control the virus and prevent risk to other coworkers. The vaccines do not do that, they mitigate the effects for those vaccinated.

You're wrong. The vaccine is over 90% effective at preventing infections, ergo, if you are vaccinated you are less likely to be infected. If you are less likely to be infected, you are less likely to spread the infection. Do you dispute that?

 

[Mithros]

Nope, they have to prove the need. They are lying and counting on majority support for their lie.

To whom? OSHA safety rulings don't rely on polling. A policy can have 0% support and still be valid.

 

[OpportunityCost]

To whom? OSHA safety rulings don't rely on polling. A policy can have 0% support and still be valid.

I guarantee you a law with 10% support will be repealed quickly because the people that put it into place won't be in office for long. That's kind of the problem here, its an administrative law, not a legislative law. The authority behind it is Biden, and the less popular he is the less support the law has.

 

[Mithros]

Does the vaccination actually prevent spread? Thats the question and the center for the rationale of the mandate. The answer is no so the mandate should also be a no.

Sometimes I find it's useful to take a step back and look at an issue through the lens of other examples.

Take these two examples: Someone returning from a trip to a region in Africa with a known ongoing Ebola outbreak and to use Joko's example... someone who's uncircumcised.

One is clearly a public health risk which government intervention is necessary, and one is none of the government's business. The person who might have been exposed to Ebola can feel very deeply that they are not placing anyone at risk and that any quarantines, tests, or extra ppe they have to use is government tyranny. Thankfully it's not up to them. And some moralistic crusaders may feel deeply that circumcision is necessary for workplace safety for spiritual reasons. Again, not up to them.

This is why we have experts.

 

[OpportunityCost]

You don't understand what vaccines do.
"Most people who get COVID-19 are unvaccinated. However, since vaccines are not 100% effective at preventing infection, some people who are fully vaccinated will still get COVID-19. An infection of a fully vaccinated person is referred to as a “breakthrough infection.”

COVID-19 Vaccination

COVID-19 vaccines protect against COVID-19. Get safety info and more.

www.cdc.gov

While not 100% effective at preventing infections, they are most definitely more effective at it than being unvaccinated is.

So a few follow ups, what is the percentage of spread difference in someone that has had Covid and someone that has been vaccinated and the third portion I guess would be someone who has both had it and been vaccinated.

Some solid study numbers to make your case.

 

[OpportunityCost]

Sometimes I find it's useful to take a step back and look at an issue through the lens of other examples.

Take these two examples: Someone returning from a trip to a region in Africa with a known ongoing Ebola outbreak and to use Joko's example... someone who's uncircumcised.

One is clearly a public health risk which government intervention is necessary, and one is none of the government's business. The person who might have been exposed to Ebola can feel very deeply that they are not placing anyone at risk and that any quarantines, tests, or extra ppe they have to use is government tyranny. Thankfully it's not up to them. And some moralistic crusaders may feel deeply that circumcision is necessary for workplace safety for spiritual reasons. Again, not up to them.

This is why we have experts.

No offense but your post is a diversion at best from the central question.

 

[Mithros]

I guarantee you a law with 10% support will be repealed quickly because the people that put it into place won't be in office for long. That's kind of the problem here, its an administrative law, not a legislative law. The authority behind it is Biden, and the less popular he is the less support the law has.

What law? This is an OSHA policy. It relies on the authority congress gave to the agency in the 1970 Occupational Safety and Health Act.

OSH Act of 1970 | Occupational Safety and Health Administration

www.osha.gov

 

[Elmo]

Vaccination doesn't prevent spread

I keep asking and I don't get an answer, the primary risk mitigation from the vaccine is to the person being vaccinated, not to the public at large. How is this making more risk for anyone but the unvaccinated? Does it slow the spread? Does it increase risk to the vaccinated in some way?

You are arguing that we need the vaccination to stop the spread when it hasn't been proven to do that.

that's it. vaxxing doesn't stop the spread from and epidemiological pov.

Government is arguing that we need the vaccination to stop the spread when it hasn't been proven to do that.

Vaccination has nothing to do with disease spread at this point.

Does the vaccination actually prevent spread? Thats the question and the center for the rationale of the mandate. The answer is no so the mandate should also be a no.

the principle reason for the mandate is stated to control the virus and prevent risk to other coworkers. The vaccines do not do that, they mitigate the effects for those vaccinated.

No. You can still carry the virus and spread it.

Six months of COVID vaccines: what 1.7 billion doses have taught scientists

At a pivotal moment in the pandemic, Nature explores key questions about the vaccines that countries are racing to deliver while viral variants spread around the globe.

www.nature.com

"And a study17 by Public Health England has found that even a single dose of either the Pfizer–BioNTech or Oxford–AstraZeneca vaccine reduced the spread of disease from infected individuals to household members by up to 50%. “It’s likely that all the vaccines have some similar effect,” says Michael Weekes, a viral immunologist at the University of Cambridge, UK. “Overall, it’s quite an optimistic picture.”"

COVID vaccines slash viral spread – but Delta is an unknown

Studies show that vaccines reduce the spread of SARS-CoV-2 by more than 80%, but the Delta variant is creating fresh uncertainty.

www.nature.com

"Both studies found that two doses of the Pfizer–BioNTech vaccine were 81% effective at preventing infections. Those who did get infected were also less likely to pass the infection to household members than were unvaccinated individuals.

The first study saw a drop of 78%, and the second 41%, in infectiousness — with the large difference in numbers perhaps explained by the fact that the estimates are based on a very small number of vaccinated people who were infected and then infected others."

The impact of SARS-CoV-2 vaccination on Alpha & Delta variant transmission

Background Pre-Delta, vaccination reduced transmission of SARS-CoV-2 from individuals infected despite vaccination, potentially via reducing viral loads. While vaccination still lowers the risk of infection, similar viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals infected with Delta...

www.medrxiv.org

"Conclusions Vaccination reduces transmission of Delta, but by less than the Alpha variant."

How much less likely are you to spread covid-19 if you're vaccinated?

A man getting vaccinated in LA People who are fully vaccinated against covid-19 are far less likely to infect others, despite the arrival of the delta variant, several studies show. The findings refute the idea, which has become common in some circles, that vaccines no longer do much to prevent...

www.newscientist.com

“They absolutely do reduce transmission,” says Christopher Byron Brooke at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. “Vaccinated people do transmit the virus in some cases, but the data are super crystal-clear that the risk of transmission for a vaccinated individual is much, much lower than for an unvaccinated individual.”

How getting vaccinated can slow the spread of the virus to others | Wear The Gown

"The vaccines are incredibly effective at preventing the most serious complications of COVID-19, which is hospitalizations and deaths."

www.kens5.com

"Dr. Alsip told KENS 5, "There's also data to suggest that those who are vaccinated carry fewer viral particles in the respiratory tract, which makes them less likely to actually spread the disease to somebody else, even if they don't have symptoms.""

Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19)

CDC provides credible COVID-19 health information to the U.S.

www.cdc.gov

"As expected, because no vaccines is 100% effective, infections in fully vaccinated persons (e.g. breakthrough infections) have been observed, albeit at much lower rates than infections among unvaccinated persons; vaccine effectiveness against severe disease remains high."
____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Repeating the same ignorant claim over and over again does not make it true. VACCINATION. DOES. SLOW. THE. SPREAD. The experts and current data is very clear on this. It's also blindingly obvious to anyone with even a basic understanding of biology. You people are spreading misinformation that is getting people killed. Stop it.

 

[eohrnberger]

if you dont understand the narrow purview of OSHA is workplace safety.and want to conflate that to a public health issue I cant really helpout here
Watch the courts. this thing is another Biden disaster and is going nowhere

The other issue is making businesses the vaccine police for the federal government.

Similar patterns of federal government demands are present in history, Stasi, and has always ended up far worse than the initial problem.

 

[Elmo]

I get the beakthru part where the viral load is equal to an unvaxxed, but for a shorter time.
- in the epidemiological transmission though one is bound to run across vaxxed and unvaxxed and various viral loads.
Since virtually everyone has been infected,virtually everyone has acquired immunity as well

what makes no sense is the viral replication mutations in the body is different for vaxxed and unvaxxed at the same viral load -
I've never seen any evidence or claims for this

The impact of SARS-CoV-2 vaccination on Alpha & Delta variant transmission

Background Pre-Delta, vaccination reduced transmission of SARS-CoV-2 from individuals infected despite vaccination, potentially via reducing viral loads. While vaccination still lowers the risk of infection, similar viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals infected with Delta...

www.medrxiv.org

"The single measured Ct value only approximates viral load at the time of transmission, as viral loads are dynamic over time.22 Hence, observed viral loads may not be representative of viral loads at transmission, however, the strong relationship between measured Ct values and risk of onward transmission argues against this15 (replicated here, Figure 4B). Therefore, it is possible vaccination acts by facilitating faster clearance of viable infectious virions,17,18 but leaving damaged ineffective virions behind that still contain PCR-detectable RNA. This may mean antigen assays have advantages in predicting the risk of onward transmission in those vaccinated, but this needs further study."

Read that please. It's preliminary and not yet peer-reviewed, but the data is there.

 

[eohrnberger]

I'm not talking about public health, I'm talking about harm reduction in the workplace. Watch the courts? I have. "In 1905, the high court made a fateful ruling with eerie parallels to today: One person’s liberty can’t trump everyone else’s."

The Surprisingly Strong Supreme Court Precedent Supporting Vaccine Mandates

In 1905, the high court made a fateful ruling with eerie parallels to today: One person’s liberty can’t trump everyone else’s.

www.politico.com

There's a difference between a state government vaccine mandate and a federal government vaccine mandate.

but harm in the workplace doesn't mean OSHA can mandate public health policy. "Workplace harm" is an exigent circumstance where OSHA can make corrective workplace ( like physical things, or hours) only . not a broader public health mandate.

Klain even understood this calling the OSHA mandate a "workaround". By "courts" I mean the current case

'workaround' = politicization of federal agencies for use as political weapons, i.e. those who don't comply and don't acquiesce to unreasonable federal government demands made in unreasonable ways, to 'workaround' federal government limitations on authority.

 

[mrjurrs]

So a few follow ups, what is the percentage of spread difference in someone that has had Covid and someone that has been vaccinated and the third portion I guess would be someone who has both had it and been vaccinated.

Some solid study numbers to make your case.

I don't need to study to see if water is wet. Fewer people with the illness results in less spread. Period.

 

[mrjurrs]

There's a difference between a state government vaccine mandate and a federal government vaccine mandate.

'workaround' = politicization of federal agencies for use as political weapons, i.e. those who don't comply and don't acquiesce to unreasonable federal government demands made in unreasonable ways, to 'workaround' federal government limitations on authority.

Yes there is. Your point?

 

[Mithros]

So a few follow ups, what is the percentage of spread difference in someone that has had Covid and someone that has been vaccinated and the third portion I guess would be someone who has both had it and been vaccinated.

Some solid study numbers to make your case.

1). If you don't get Covid you can't spread Covid. Vaccine efficacy rates tell us that fully vaccinated individuals are 1/6 as likely to test positive for Covid as unvaccinated .
2). A vaccinated person is less likely to pass on covid, though that effect wanes over time.

Back of the envelope says that vaccinated individuals are at least an order of magnitude less likely to transmit Covid.

The impact of SARS-CoV-2 vaccination on Alpha & Delta variant transmission

Background Pre-Delta, vaccination reduced SARS-CoV-2 transmission from individuals infected despite vaccination, potentially via reducing viral loads. While vaccination still lowers the risk of infection, similar viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals infected with Delta question...

www.medrxiv.org

No offense but your post is a diversion at best from the central question.

Is it? Or is it the point? You or I don't get a say in OSHA safety regulations, and that is a good thing. The entire point of OSHA is that individuals don't get to decide for themselves what's safe for other people.

 

[CLAX1911]

Does the vaccination actually prevent spread? Thats the question and the center for the rationale of the mandate. The answer is no so the mandate should also be a no.

I think one could make the argument that it does reduce the spread of the known variants. The question is how much. Is it enough to throw away the Constitution.

 

[eohrnberger]

I think one could make the argument that it does reduce the spread of the known variants. The question is how much. Is it enough to throw away the Constitution.

There's very little that could cause me to 'throw away the Constitution'. Some, who have the Constitution already, it comes easy, apparently.

 

[anatta]

The impact of SARS-CoV-2 vaccination on Alpha & Delta variant transmission

Background Pre-Delta, vaccination reduced transmission of SARS-CoV-2 from individuals infected despite vaccination, potentially via reducing viral loads. While vaccination still lowers the risk of infection, similar viral loads in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals infected with Delta...

www.medrxiv.org

"The single measured Ct value only approximates viral load at the time of transmission, as viral loads are dynamic over time.22 Hence, observed viral loads may not be representative of viral loads at transmission, however, the strong relationship between measured Ct values and risk of onward transmission argues against this15 (replicated here, Figure 4B). Therefore, it is possible vaccination acts by facilitating faster clearance of viable infectious virions,17,18 but leaving damaged ineffective virions behind that still contain PCR-detectable RNA. This may mean antigen assays have advantages in predicting the risk of onward transmission in those vaccinated, but this needs further study."

Read that please. It's preliminary and not yet peer-reviewed, but the data is there.

good info. thanks.
however from an epidemiological pov I dont think anyone can avoid exposure -so vaxxed or unvaxxed doesnt really stop the spread.
which is consistent with the enourmous numbers of those tested for non-symptomatic infection.
so vaxxing mandates dont really help stop the spread, but they help stop symptomatic infections and the cytokine storm for sure

 

[Elmo]

I think one could make the argument that it does reduce the spread of the known variants. The question is how much. Is it enough to throw away the Constitution.

Fair enough. We can debate the cost-benefit analysis of mandates, as long as we can all recognizes the basic fact that vaccines reduce the spread of disease.

 

[RAMOSS]

if you dont understand the narrow purview of OSHA is workplace safety.and want to conflate that to a public health issue I cant really helpout here
Watch the courts. this thing is another Biden disaster and is going nowhere

That is whats the right wing media is claiming. Other legal experts are saying Biden has a strong case.