5-10 Years is now Entry-Level

[Checkerboard Strangler]

You don't stop learning once you get out of school, it is a life-long process. Particularly if you wish to advance in the real-world. It was particularly tough immediately after graduation because nothing they taught me at the university prepared me for the real-world.

For instance the graduate with a four year degree from film school.
Typically, if their actual experience amounts to having worked on a student film and nothing else, then they don't have the foggiest notion of what they're doing.

It is required in Ontario from Grade 4 to Grade 9 and optionally till Grade 12 which I did but all you do is fill out verb conjugation sheets and the lessons are bad. I have gone over more in two weeks of my French classes than I did in all the French lessons I had from Grade 4 to 12. It is very similar for other provinces. Even Quebec does not require fluency for English schools.

Ontario??? That's not Quebec. But you're saying that Quebec doesn't require proficiency in French either?
But I don't understand, and that's because I've BEEN to Quebec but never lived there or even worked there for any length of time, how is it possible to live one's entire life there and not interact with Francophones. The best and easiest way to learn a language is total immersion in real life at an early age.

I just don't get it, unless the French and English communities up there have been practicing some form of voluntary self-segregation. Is that it?
If so, that's some real greaseball ****.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I can't afford to live anywhere else.

Unless you can get a better paying job. Which is still a possibility.

 

[NeverTrump]

So I have been spending the last year trying to find a job, I just graduated a month ago. It is a tough horrible process so far but one of the worst thing I keep seeing is that companies will tag their jobs as "internship" or "entry-level" then ask for many years experience, the worst one I have seen is 10 years, 4-5 years is not uncommon. Then there are internships asking for 3-5 years minimum for experience. The requirements only seem to get more outrageous, internships asking for certifications that require years of experience to qualify for, years of experience in a very specific field or niche, experience with very specialized software, etc. All of this for what sounds very often like a fairly entry-level job that doesn't require half the things they ask for or can be very easily trained provided the applicant has the proper background. But I guess they will do literally anything to not have to train people I guess, who cares about long-term right. I also keep seeing them reposted sometimes for months in a row, so clearly they are not finding these people. There was this company I really liked and saw they had a posting for exactly what I do and only asked for 0-1 years of experience, it was an entry-level type of job, so I applied then after a while I followed up with an HR person I connected with on LinkedIn and they said sorry but they are only considering people with 4-5+ years experience. It is just insanity. At this rate I will to resort to my Plan B sooner than I thought.

I think this is a lot of companies these days:
View attachment 67259412

I hear you and I wrote about this in a different thread:

I think we will see this in my lifetime. I'm 30 years old currently climbing the ladder in my industry is all luck. Job apps are terrible and even if you are experienced you get screwed by everyone and their cousin who needs a job.

So I can forsee a political candidate for congress or even President, run on getting unemployment to full employment by trying to do to job searching hiring what Obama did to Healthcare. You have different working class people running for office now that are not rich people pretending to be working class. They were actually in my position six months ago and are learning how screwed up the system is while the old guard tells them to sit down and take it.

Basically they would run on a platform of "people focused job searching". It basically needs a huge overhaul. Everything from the ATS trackers, to HR, to Onboarding practices, resumes, and nepotism. Some future politician is looking at the revolving door of nepotism in both the gov't and corporations right now and is saying enough!!!

There's really no reason for all the companies to have such different methods of applying for jobs. They could repackage the slogan, "Back in the day, all you need was a newspaper and a telephone," to something more progressive and enhancing. "Make Getting a Job Simple Again." It's not enough to have such loose definitions of "employment" numbers. The American people know they are being fudged and the majority are not happy in their jobs in the first place.

Yeah politicians realizing that people working 2-3 jobs to make a livable wage is only the beginning. UBI while a great start. Only the beginning. If your cousin's gf can just bypass all that, what's the point?

 

[Carjosse]

For instance the graduate with a four year degree from film school.
Typically, if their actual experience amounts to having worked on a student film and nothing else, then they don't have the foggiest notion of what they're doing.



Ontario??? That's not Quebec. But you're saying that Quebec doesn't require proficiency in French either?
But I don't understand, and that's because I've BEEN to Quebec but never lived there or even worked there for any length of time, how is it possible to live one's entire life there and not interact with Francophones. The best and easiest way to learn a language is total immersion in real life at an early age.

I just don't get it, unless the French and English communities up there have been practicing some form of voluntary self-segregation. Is that it?
If so, that's some real greaseball ****.

I am from Ontario. The island of Montreal is home to the minority of Anglophones in Québec. The more West you go the more English you get, and the more East you go the more French it gets. I live downtown so it is bilingual but since I went to an English school I just end up speaking English all the time. The West Island is very English with some areas reaching near 100% Anglophone population. You can also see it in the elections, Anglophones are staunch Liberals and so the ridings are as well. There are even smaller extremely wealthy areas where all the signs and everything are in English, it does not even feel like Quebec at that point. The Anglophone areas are generally much wealthier than French ones.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I am from Ontario. The island of Montreal is home to the minority of Anglophones in Québec. The more West you go the more English you get, and the more East you go the more French it gets. I live downtown so it is bilingual but since I went to an English school I just end up speaking English all the time. The West Island is very English with some areas reaching near 100% Anglophone population. You can also see it in the elections, Anglophones are staunch Liberals and so the ridings are as well. There are even smaller extremely wealthy areas where all the signs and everything are in English, it does not even feel like Quebec at that point. The Anglophone areas are generally much wealthier than French ones.

What are "the ridings"??

Like I said, it sounds more and more like Quebec practices a lot of voluntary self-segregation.
Here in Whittier California (some seven miles from downtown Los Angeles) I live in a predominantly hispanic neighborhood, probably about 65-70% Mexican-American.

But almost everyone speaks both languages. I daresay that some hispanics in my neighborhood don't even speak that much Spanish on a daily basis, unless they are maybe conversing with their abuelos or abuelas. (grandparents)

Tablillas autenticas de chocolate Mexicano (Tablets of authentic Mexican hot chocolate)

Los Angeles has six or maybe seven hispanic television stations (broadcast or cable) innumerable Spanish radio stations and even two or more Spanish language newspapers, La Opinion and L.A. Times en Espanol chief among them.

But contrary to possible popular belief, there's no vast and endless hard coded "Spanish only" areas anymore because it simply isn't practical. Each city, suburb, town and unincorporated area that comprises the Greater Los Angeles Metro Area has its own ethnic enclaves but I seldom run into a situation where nobody speaks English, and my own Spanish abilities are such that even on such a rare occasion, I can get by and make myself understood at least at a basic level.

I love my hispanic neighbors and my hispanic neighborhood. True I find the oom-pah-pah music annoying, and they play with fireworks WAY too much, but on the whole they remind me of my Italian family, only with more Tabasco Sauce and more horses. :lol:

 

[Carjosse]

What are "the ridings"??

Like I said, it sounds more and more like Quebec practices a lot of voluntary self-segregation.
Here in Whittier California (some seven miles from downtown Los Angeles) I live in a predominantly hispanic neighborhood, probably about 65-70% Mexican-American.

But almost everyone speaks both languages. I daresay that some hispanics in my neighborhood don't even speak that much Spanish on a daily basis, unless they are maybe conversing with their abuelos or abuelas. (grandparents)

Tablillas autenticas de chocolate Mexicano (Tablets of authentic Mexican hot chocolate)

Los Angeles has six or maybe seven hispanic television stations (broadcast or cable) innumerable Spanish radio stations and even two or more Spanish language newspapers, La Opinion and L.A. Times en Espanol chief among them.

But contrary to possible popular belief, there's no vast and endless hard coded "Spanish only" areas anymore because it simply isn't practical. Each city, suburb, town and unincorporated area that comprises the Greater Los Angeles Metro Area has its own ethnic enclaves but I seldom run into a situation where nobody speaks English, and my own Spanish abilities are such that even on such a rare occasion, I can get by and make myself understood at least at a basic level.

I love my hispanic neighbors and my hispanic neighborhood. True I find the oom-pah-pah music annoying, and they play with fireworks WAY too much, but on the whole they remind me of my Italian family, only with more Tabasco Sauce and more horses. :lol:

Well if you leave the island it is exclusively French, it is just how it always has been. Ridings are like your Congressional or state electoral districts.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

Well if you leave the island it is exclusively French, it is just how it always has been. Ridings are like your Congressional or state electoral districts.

Oh okay, never heard the term before.
So, it is just how it always has been...got it.
Sounds like voluntary self-segregation and extreme insularism whereas I always imagined that the French and English intermingled, the way hispanic and other groups intermingle here in Los Angeles, or New York.

That's a pity and a shame.

And I still suspect you may be on the receiving end of some thinly veiled discrimination as an anglophone in a French province, but I can't prove it.

 

[Carjosse]

Oh okay, never heard the term before.
So, it is just how it always has been...got it.
Sounds like voluntary self-segregation and extreme insularism whereas I always imagined that the French and English intermingled, the way hispanic and other groups intermingle here in Los Angeles, or New York.

That's a pity and a shame.

And I still suspect you may be on the receiving end of some thinly veiled discrimination as an anglophone in a French province, but I can't prove it.

There are mixed areas but think about it, if you are Anglophone you are going want to live around and near Anglophone institutions like English schools, English libraries, English community centres, etc. Same with French. Spanish in the US is not the same as English or French in Canada, it has different status.

 

[gulfman]

Put your application in at a company that your relatives or family member owns.Your odds are much better.

 

[Mustachio]

I agree that unpaid internships should be outlawed.

See, there are things we can agree on!

 

[Greenbeard]

Welcome to reality, and the world.

This isn't 1972, Boomer, you can't just stroll into a place and get a decently paid job simply for having a pulse.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

There are mixed areas but think about it, if you are Anglophone you are going want to live around and near Anglophone institutions like English schools, English libraries, English community centres, etc.

Why? Why wouldn't it be better for everyone to just mix it up more?
I didn't say that NO Spanish is spoken where I live, I am saying that there isn't as much self-segregation as people might be inclined to believe.
The Spanish speaking people (well...citizens and legal residents anyway) have for the most part assimilated, and vice versa, because I am a wee bit more "hispanicized" after first moving here in 1981.
I spent ten years down in Texas but the moment we moved back to Southern California I noticed that I instinctively began to re-learn more Spanish again. It came back to me pretty naturally. I can't say I'm fluent but I can haggle in Spanish at a Mexican yard sale pretty well and I can read La Opinion and watch TV novellas in Spanish or pick up what's going on if I watch the newscast on Telemundo.

Same with French. Spanish in the US is not the same as English or French in Canada, it has different status.

Sorry but while we do not have "official" languages, Spanish IS the de facto #2 language in this country and has been for at least half a century, and not just in California either.

The South has Florida, with a huge Spanish speaking population, Nueva York (New York) has a very large Puerto Rican AND Mexican population, and the entire Southwestern United States, California, Nevada, Arizona and New Mexico, has a booming Spanish speaking population.
I would add Texas, but they're a bit more like Quebec, in that they do self segregate hispanic AND black populations to a fairly large extent.

So saying that Spanish "has different status" is pointless because in a very real sense Spanish is by sheer numbers the unofficial second language in this country.

Personally, I think two things should happen down here in the USA.

1. If you're coming here to live, English, just basic English (enough to haggle at a yard sale and understand signs or instructions) needs to be a requirement, with exceptions for the elderly of course.

2. Basic Spanish should also be required to graduate high school here in the USA. Again, just basic enough to get by, read instructions or signs, haggle at a yard sale, ask for directions, etc.

 

[Lord Tammerlain]

Most of them are entering things into Excel and doing basic analysis and VBA coding, you don't need 5 years of experience and a CBAP to do that. Then again in my experience older people seem to think it does.

Job and salary protection

They say the job needs this level of experience to protect their salary. If people with limited to no experience can do the job they will lower the salary of the experienced staff

 

[Darth BB]

So I have been spending the last year trying to find a job, I just graduated a month ago. It is a tough horrible process so far but one of the worst thing I keep seeing is that companies will tag their jobs as "internship" or "entry-level" then ask for many years experience, the worst one I have seen is 10 years, 4-5 years is not uncommon. Then there are internships asking for 3-5 years minimum for experience. The requirements only seem to get more outrageous, internships asking for certifications that require years of experience to qualify for, years of experience in a very specific field or niche, experience with very specialized software, etc. All of this for what sounds very often like a fairly entry-level job that doesn't require half the things they ask for or can be very easily trained provided the applicant has the proper background. But I guess they will do literally anything to not have to train people I guess, who cares about long-term right. I also keep seeing them reposted sometimes for months in a row, so clearly they are not finding these people. There was this company I really liked and saw they had a posting for exactly what I do and only asked for 0-1 years of experience, it was an entry-level type of job, so I applied then after a while I followed up with an HR person I connected with on LinkedIn and they said sorry but they are only considering people with 4-5+ years experience. It is just insanity. At this rate I will to resort to my Plan B sooner than I thought.

I think this is a lot of companies these days:
View attachment 67259412

Haven't we been told that the job market has turned around? Record numbers of Americans under full employment, etc.? Isn't that one of Trump's memes?

And yet, here is your story, and I've seen many more like it. It would seem like in order to get a job as a janitor, one must first spend four years and six figures to get a degree, then work as an intern or amateur for five years in order to be considered qualified to mop floors.

Im so glad I'm retired. That said, sometimes a strong will and a sharp mind is helpful. So is luck. Sometimes it depends on what you do for a living, which your post doesn't mention. Maybe you can find a mentor.

 

[joko104]

See, there are things we can agree on!

There are probably many issues and topics we agree on.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

But they keep getting reposted, clearly they are not finding people. My dad's company is the same, they would rather lose some money by not hiring someone and forcing everyone else to work more than to have to spend the money and time training someone because the long-term doesn't matter. I think it is much more of a case of companies being short-sighted as they usually are. Most companies are very bad at thinking about things for the long-term.

The best job postings I have seen are from the government, they are the only ones to talk about the understanding that people need training.

The fact the job is being reposted doesn’t mean it’s not filled. They could be expanding, they could be trying to get resumes to see what their potential labor pool is, they might just post it for fun.

Clearly they are functioning just fine without hiring people with no experience

But you’ve posted this problem before, and you won’t move, won’t take on work beneath you to get a reference, won’t become more socially active to build connections, people have given you advice before and you’re not going to follow it and so a year from now you’ll still be posting these threads

 

[EMNofSeattle]

This isn't 1972, Boomer, you can't just stroll into a place and get a decently paid job simply for having a pulse.

You couldn’t do that in 72 either. Ever hear of the “American Malaise”? The 70s was a time of much hardship and decline in the US

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Thankfully unpaid internships are illegal in Canada for the most part. Like I said in another post a lot of the people who i know have already found jobs got them through family contacts which is not an option for me.

Well in your case that’s very not thankful. Those laws are “protecting” you from building out your contacts and proving to a company you’re worth wasting time on.

Start attending church, and be nice and polite, after mass go downstairs for the coffee and donuts and mingle with people. You’ll have a massive network of contacts in like maybe 2 months if you’re active and participating

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I agree that unpaid internships should be outlawed.

Why? That only hurts the people it is purported to protect.

If you don’t want an unpaid internship do not apply for one.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I can't afford to live anywhere else.

My great great grandparents in Norway had nothing and somehow they ended up here.

The truth is you can’t afford to stay if what you’re saying Is true

 

[Mustachio]

There are probably many issues and topics we agree on.

I used to say that 90% of Americans agree on 90% of all issues but spend 90% of their time talking about the other 10%.

I haven't said that in many years because people stopped acting the way they would if they believed the things they said. We're willfully stupid, repeating talking points and playing what-about-your-party 100% of the time. What's the point of engaging in conversation anymore? But I appreciate that you took the time to say that you agreed with a policy proposal I threw out there. When you did that, an angel somewhere out there got its wings.

Adding to the thread, I wanted to get into improv or acting about 8 years ago and you needed to have a resume of productions you had been in. But to be in any said production, you'd need the same resume. I didn't know I'd be physically incapable of acting within 5 years at that point, but the world of employment - even in something as absurdly small as local theater - is filled with catch 22s. I agree with Dennis Prager when he says too many kids go to school and then I think he should be arrested moments later when he says that Prager U is better than Harvard. Not literally arrested. Ok, maybe literally arrested.

 

[Mustachio]

Why? That only hurts the people it is purported to protect.

If you don’t want an unpaid internship do not apply for one.

When you say that, it reminds me of a child hitting somebody on the arm over and over again and saying "why do you keep hitting yourself?" There is such a thing as a minimum wage, and intern is a job. I've never met an intern who doesn't work harder than half the people with fat salaries they're handing out lunch to.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

When you say that, it reminds me of a child hitting somebody on the arm over and over again and saying "why do you keep hitting yourself?" There is such a thing as a minimum wage, and intern is a job. I've never met an intern who doesn't work harder than half the people with fat salaries they're handing out lunch to.

Ok, so now those people who would do internships and meet people and get paid jobs are not being paid to be losers who can’t get a job period, what benefit did they receive?

The free market fixes this, if no one applies to a an unpaid internship it would disappear.

Also an unpaid internship is a better deal then paying tuition to a college to learn nothing useful

Also your last sentence is total BS and you and I both know it

 

[distraff]

So I have been spending the last year trying to find a job, I just graduated a month ago. It is a tough horrible process so far but one of the worst thing I keep seeing is that companies will tag their jobs as "internship" or "entry-level" then ask for many years experience, the worst one I have seen is 10 years, 4-5 years is not uncommon. Then there are internships asking for 3-5 years minimum for experience. The requirements only seem to get more outrageous, internships asking for certifications that require years of experience to qualify for, years of experience in a very specific field or niche, experience with very specialized software, etc. All of this for what sounds very often like a fairly entry-level job that doesn't require half the things they ask for or can be very easily trained provided the applicant has the proper background. But I guess they will do literally anything to not have to train people I guess, who cares about long-term right. I also keep seeing them reposted sometimes for months in a row, so clearly they are not finding these people. There was this company I really liked and saw they had a posting for exactly what I do and only asked for 0-1 years of experience, it was an entry-level type of job, so I applied then after a while I followed up with an HR person I connected with on LinkedIn and they said sorry but they are only considering people with 4-5+ years experience. It is just insanity. At this rate I will to resort to my Plan B sooner than I thought.

I think this is a lot of companies these days:
View attachment 67259412

The problem is many companies are facing is high turnover, so they know they are going to lose your pretty soon after making the effort to train you. Many entry level people are hired by companies that are very cheap and are just desperate to get staff willing to put up with the poor wages. It can take years to actually be competent. I am a software developer and it took me 3 years to start writing good code that wasn't junk. The company that hired me was left with all my bad code. Another issue is that Canada doesn't have the hot job market the US does. Canada's job market is decent since unemployment is 5.5%, but isn't burning up like the US 3.8% unemployment.

Here are some tips for you to succeed:
1: Network. Reach out to old professors and classmates. Reach out to hiring managers and people on LinkedIn. Get tips from them as well. If you are just doing online applications, big mistake.
2: Make sure your resume, cover letter, and linkedin are actually good. A lot of entry level people just have terrible resumes and linkedins. Often full of fluff, or not specific to the job.
3: No specific job. You need to make every resume specific to the job posting. And you need to be sending out a lot of resumes. The best way to do this is to be very specific about the job you want and make a general resume template for it, and you can modify it a bit for each job opening. The linkedin should also be very specific to what you want.
4: Not searching nationally. Many people limit themselves to just one city, but if you aren't getting a lot of interest in your city, then you will have to look nationally. It can be tough to move and the city expensive, but you can always just rent a cheap room. The first job may not get you much money, but once you have your first, it will be a lot easier to get your second since you will have experience.
5: No extra-curriculars. Many students try to get into the workforce with just a degree. It sounds like you have internships which is great. But you will also benefit from certifications and personal projects. Also consider making a personal website with examples of your work.
6: Not applying efficiently. I suggest you mostly use linkedin and Indeed to apply for jobs online. You can try searching for just entry level jobs specifically. Some jobs only require a resume and cover letter and don't require filling in time consuming forms. Also, consider making your search so narrow that your template resume won't require much time to modify to be perfect for each job. Avoid spending much time on jobs that you don't qualify for on paper, since you will likely get weeded out immediately.
2:

 

[Mustachio]

Ok, so now those people who would do internships and meet people and get paid jobs are not being paid to be losers who can’t get a job period, what benefit did they receive?

The free market fixes this, if no one applies to a an unpaid internship it would disappear.

Also an unpaid internship is a better deal then paying tuition to a college to learn nothing useful

Also your last sentence is total BS and you and I both know it

Perhaps you missed my initial post. I was selected as one of the top 5-10 students in my graduating class for two internships following the completion of my undergrad studies in film (there were like 200 students so it's certainly an honor but I'm not claiming to be Sidney Lumet). The students, including myself, spent the summer at a television production company (and then I received a second similar offer for a film production company reading scripts). The work continued indefinitely and we were told that it would lead to a job. You probably have been watching TV and heard words that I arranged - I didn't write them, I arranged them. My claim to fame

I know all but one or possibly two of the interns selected. I had a brief romantic encounter with one, which was a perk I suppose, but I couldn't survive without pay. And yes, reading scripts for 8 hours a day we were working harder than the highest paid employee supervising us, whose job was to READ SCRIPTS. The same job, but he read fewer scripts (the ones we rated highly) and then relaxed and spent a lot of time on IMDB Pro. So no, not BS. My friend stayed for 3 years. He was promised multiple paid jobs and finally accepted a position at the genius bar inside the Apple store. None of us ever received a paid job, although I cannot speak for the one or possible two individuals I never spoke to or befriended on social media.

Nothing's wrong with that picture? The free market doesn't fix it, because if you can tell an intern "stick with it and you'll be behind my desk one day" knowing they are l-y-i-n-g, why wouldn't you jump at the opportunity? There is no justification for that. If you think there is, I think you're just disagreeing to be a jerkface.