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43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforcemen

Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
They were neither. I was just letting you know the way a man would question my service. :shrug:
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I see. ......So calling me "Old Man" twice in the same sentence was really your way of endearing yourself? :kissass
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc


I love when people bring up the trumped up armor issue. Newsflash: a Hummvee isn't a tank and no matter how much armor you hang on it, or on the body of a soldier, you're not going to make them impregnable. I always taught my soldiers how to avoid getting shot, therefore negating the need for body armor. But, at the end of the day, Bush isn't president anymore. is he?





The goal is to destroy the enemy. That's been the goal of warfare since cavemen first went after each other with rocks and sticks.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Devil505 said:
I see. ......So calling me "Old Man" twice in the same sentence was really your way of endearing yourself? :kissass
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How about you get back to the topic instead of whining about the response you got to trolling me?
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
How about you get back to the topic instead of whining about the response you got to trolling me?
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OK...I will then.

At the risk of antagonizing TacticalEvilDan again..I'll just ask you one pertinent question:

Why should we accept the military strategy/advise of an ex AF sergeant over the words of our DefSec & Chief of Staff & CinC when it comes to high level Afghanistan policy?
 
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Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc


Are you saying they're just bagging the whole thing?

If it was such a "comprehensive strategy," it should be able to weather a few things going the wrong way, and it should anticipate that the unexpected would happen. There weren't that many more troops committed back in March; a simple request for more shouldn't send him into such a spin.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc



I was not the one who injected my military experience into the conversation.

Are you done yet?
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc


Afghanistan cannot be fixed with military intention alone. It has to form part of the strategy, as does humanitarianism, politics and economics. The humanitarian problem is huge and plays a complex role, which needs complex negotiations on a multinational basis.

UNHCR - Afghanistan

"Even though the international community pledged an additional USD 21 billion to Afghanistan in 2008 to support the Afghanistan National Development Strategy, the country's transition to political, economic and social stability remains uncertain"

So this perhaps highlights where some of the problems lie. As we all know corruption is a charge floated about with regards to Afghanistan.

With porous borders refugee movement is vast

"The return of almost 5 million Afghans since 2002 has placed great pressure on the country's absorption capacity, especially on its limited local-labour markets"

This problem is intertwined with much of the stability problems.

I think you mentioned somewhere using smaller mobile forces, this of course can be effective but a double edged sword also


8 Americans Dead in Fierce Afghan Battles - CBS News

"Hundreds of insurgents armed with automatic rifles and rocket-propelled grenades stormed a pair of remote outposts near the Pakistan border, killing eight U.S. soldiers and capturing more than 20 Afghan security troops in the deadliest assault against U.S. forces in more than a year, military officials said."

"It was the heaviest U.S. loss of life in a single battle since July 2008, when nine American soldiers were killed in a raid on an outpost in Wanat in the same province."

A couple of instances of the vulnerability of lightly protected outposts. You may suggest these were perhaps sitting ducks but all the same you need some-kind of static base, if only for re-supply or alternatively it does, and obviously did, draw the insurgents out of cover. But of course their are other ways of using smaller forces in a more effective manor such as special forces long range patrolling techniques etc

Paul
 
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Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc


The Chief of Staff and the CENTCOM Commander both support McChrystal's evaluation of the scene on the ground in Afghnistan. The question is, why should the opinions of highly experienced and educated officers suddenly become suspect, by people who aren't nearly as qualified to make such judgements. It appears that PBO is ignoring his entire uniformed chain of command.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
I was not the one who injected my military experience into the conversation.

Are you done yet?
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Not quite Rev......

You did in fact inject your military experience when you presumed to attack the CinC for his military thinking when you said this in your OP:

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Which is more inportant to Obama the olympics or US troops. There has been a request for reinforcments and a plea that we are going to lose this war id this requirment is not met.
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That would presume that you know better about military decision making than the CinC who has the advise of the Joint Chiefs, The Sec. of Defense & others at hand.

You went on to say:





Which can only be interpreted as you chastising the CinC's decision schedule as "Inexcusable"....when you have no way of knowing the info that he has gotten from his commanders & advisers, & alleging that he can't walk & chew gum at the same time. (Presidents are always required to juggle many important things.....at the same time, especially wartime Presidents)

So I ask again, totally pertinent to your topic:
Why should we accept your castigation of the CinC as you knowing better than the him & all his advisers combined?

That's a fair question to ask you & not an attack.
 
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Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Devil505 said:
So I ask again, totally pertinent to your topic:
Why should we accept your castigation of the CinC as knowing better than the CinC & all his advisers combined?

That's a fair question to ask you & not an attack.
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Because common sense should dictate that if your Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, your CENTCOM commander and your theater command are all of the same opinion, it shouldn't take this long to make a decision.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

apdst said:
Because common sense should dictate that if your Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, your CENTCOM commander and your theater command are all of the same opinion, it shouldn't take this long to make a decision.
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It obviously does take this long to come up with the correct decision. Afghanistan is not a simple problem.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Devil505 said:
It obviously does take this long to come up with the correct decision. Afghanistan is not a simple problem.
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The correct decision would be to listen to his military commanders.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

There's nothing "obvious" about it.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Devil505 said:
It obviously does take this long to come up with the correct decision. Afghanistan is not a simple problem.
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If three men with over 100 years of combined military experience, who have proven themselves on the battlefield, tell you what the correct decision is, it's usually wise to trust them.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Strucky said:
The correct decision would be to listen to his military commanders.
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Not at all! Civilians control our military...not vice versa! You couldn't be more wrong.
 
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Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

apdst said:
If three men with over 100 years of combined military experience, who have proven themselves on the battlefield, tell you what the correct decision is, it's usually wise to trust them.
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& when our founding fathers specifically prescribed civilian control of the military "it's usually wise to trust them."
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Devil505 said:
Not at all! Civilians control our military...not vice versa! You couldn't be more wrong.
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Civilians do NOT run military operations in a war zone.
 
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Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Devil505 said:
Not at all! Civilians control our military...not vice versa!
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Just because civilians run the show doesn't mean they know what they're doing. They should be smart enough to know their limitations when comes to military matters and trust the leaders that they put in place.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Devil505 said:
& when our founding fathers specifically prescribed civilian control of the military "it's usually wise to trust them."
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When the fouding fathers were looking for someone to make miltiary decisions, who did they turn to? It sure as hell wasn't a lawyer with zero military experience.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

apdst said:
When the fouding fathers were looking for someone to make miltiary decisions, who did they turn to? It sure as hell wasn't a lawyer with zero military experience.
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Is the POTUS CinC or not?

Is there anyone above him to make decisions for this country? (military or not)

Didn't someone once call his job "The Decider?"
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

That the President makes the decision is not the question. That's a blatant strawman.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Two reasons.

We felt the same way when Bush I wasn't sure if we were going into Bagdhad or not.

#2, from people I know in Afghanistan which is the impetus for my recent tirades on this topic.
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Well, this isn't Iraq, Obama isn't Bush, and anecdotal evidence, while it can certainly inspire, doesn't qualify as evidence.


Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Do you think they just accept that or do you think they do that critical thinking sometimes?
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I assume that they think critically about their situation. I also assume that they don't need strategic details any more than, say, I do.

I guess I thought that your average military grunt, with all the training and discipline that comes with being a grunt, would be better equipped to think about and judge the situation better than your average armchair quarterback.

As such, I figured they'd be less susceptible to the media-generated hysteria over the situation -- that they'd know that there's nothing wrong with the fact that Obama isn't communicating regularly with the general, that they'd expect him to need to rethink his strategy after a 50% increase in troops didn't get the job done, that they'd appreciate the extra thought the President is putting into what is a matter of life and death for them, that they wouldn't assume that he's not dealing with the situation simply because he's not having a meeting with the SecDef in front of a camera.

From what you're saying, Rev, I guess I gave the average military grunt too much credit.
 
Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Harshaw said:
That the President makes the decision is not the question. That's a blatant strawman.
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Then what is the question here??? (characterization of someone else's post is not needed or helpful to the discussion)
 
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Re: 43 U.S. Troops Have Died in Afghanistan Since Gen. McChrystal Called for Reinforc

Devil505 said:
Is the POTUS CinC or not?

Is there anyone above him to make decisions for this country? (military or not)

Didn't someone once call his job "The Decider?"
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You are missing the point....If you do not know what to do/what you are doing you should follow the advice of those that do....In this case the military brass.
 
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