400 lb. Mike Moore on the Comedy Show

[Saboteur]

You didn't "get through to me" at all, since there wasn't anything to "get through about". No, I don't understand how anyone who values personal freedom, choice, and responsibilitiy could EVER be pro-UHC. EVER. But, if you don't value freedom, choice, and personal responsibility and instead think that people should be coddled and controlled, then i guess I can see how you would think UHC is a good idea. The fact that I know the government is better suited for certain things in this country isn't an "admission" of anything other than rational thinking. I already knew this. You didn't make me "see the light" on this matter.

Okay, whatever you say :roll:

Ports can be privately run. Prisons would have to be a government thing because I just can't figure out how they could be privatized. Should someone come up with a workable solution for though, I'd be all ears. Roads could be privatized with tolls, but I'm okay with the government handling. There isn't much that they should be handling though. The big thing is national defense, then there are of course some other areas.

Well, if prisons could be privatized then we'd have to kiss all those federal laws goodbye. What a major victory for pedophiles who take minors across state lines!

Huh? Are you just ranting about government spending? Cause I agree that they spend way too much on stupid ****.

So we don't disagree on everything, good

But, my take on spending is more geared towards reallocation of funds going to rediculous things for UHC instead, I know you think UHC is stupid too though. At least then it wouldn't cost anyone another dime and be just the same as it is now.

How can I NOT acknowledge the freeloaders? I had to work with them daily. I saw left and right every single day just how "wonderful" our current socialist systems are, how abused they are, how inefficient they are, how many people purposefully do things so they can continue to draw from the government and not actually work. It's rampant, it's the majority, and it's disgusting.

This seems like more opinion than fact to me but I admit I don't know what experience you're drawing from. If the majority were freeloaders then this country would be in the toilet. I keep telling you that and you keep ignoring it.

I also acknowledge - of course - that there are people in this country who want the government to handle their lives for them. And, who think that the government should handle my life too. I really wish they would just disappear, but hey... I'm all for freedom of speech. Let them have their say, the rest of us will just laugh, and we'll go on our merry way. Personally, I think such people should be allowed to hand control of their lives over to the government - especially if it'll keep them from trying to push the government further into MY life.

I really wish you'd elaborate on how UHC takes your freedom away when you'd be just as free to get quality health care as you are now. And how it runs anybody's life when the choice for clinics and doctors could be just the same too. I just don't get it other than you hate the idea and therefore everyone else should feel the same.

Quite frankly though, people who think the government should coddle them and take care of them all their lives should really just go to a country that does that. That's not what the US is. The US is about freedom and liberty and responsibility and this downward spiral away from responsibility is terribly frightening and frustrating for the rest of us. If we adopt such socialist government plans full on, we might as well rename the country because we sure as **** won't be America anymore.

I wish it was just that easy to move to another country. Unfortunaty even if I had the money saved to do it the U.S. doesn't allow people to take more than $10,000 with them. Not sure how I'd get the rest of my money... Anyway I'd also have to have a job so that I could eat and have shelter and a reason to be in the country. See, they don't just let you freeload like you believe.

Yeah right. Go work in the system for awhile, I think you might actually see the light then.

Well my sister was a social worker for awhile and she worked in child protection. But because of loopholes in the law she couldn't protect the children for very long. In some cases, children would be back in their abusive homes within hours. In this country law can be over ridden by people who can afford to pay their way out of it. Should that be a right?

Regardless, the state by state thing is really the only fair way to do it. That way the rest of us that want to live with LESS government control instead of more, and that wish to be responsible for ourselves can still do so. It would give people the choice instead of forcing crap on everyone in the country.

Jeez this high horse hyperbole is getting old.

Sure, it'll increase the population in a given area. But I doubt you'll care much for the people that move there.

Another opinion that has no facts to back it up.

 

[rivrrat]

This seems like more opinion than fact to me but I admit I don't know what experience you're drawing from. If the majority were freeloaders then this country would be in the toilet. I keep telling you that and you keep ignoring it.

I didn't say the majority of the people in this country were freeloaders. I said the majority of people using our socialist systems are. (Welfare, Medicaid/Medicare - with the exception of the elderly)

I really wish you'd elaborate on how UHC takes your freedom away when you'd be just as free to get quality health care as you are now. And how it runs anybody's life when the choice for clinics and doctors could be just the same too. I just don't get it other than you hate the idea and therefore everyone else should feel the same.

No, I wouldn't have the same choices. Every single procedure would be a political battle. It would federally mandated what I could or could not have done. Doctors would also be restricted in what they could do FOR patients and they would be restricted to federally mandated wages. I've elaborated on this several times. I've quoted articles that spelled it out more eloquently than I can.

Well my sister was a social worker for awhile and she worked in child protection. But because of loopholes in the law she couldn't protect the children for very long. In some cases, children would be back in their abusive homes within hours. In this country law can be over ridden by people who can afford to pay their way out of it. Should that be a right?

I don't know what you mean by laws being over ridden by people paying their way out. If you mean some sort of bribery, then no of course I don't agree with that.

Jeez this high horse hyperbole is getting old.

What high horse? Personal responsibility is a "high horse"?

Another opinion that has no facts to back it up.

Trust me dude, I'm all for that test state idea. I would back it 100% just so I could watch it fail miserably and put all these socialist yahoos in their place. It would also help contain them for me.

 

[Onine]

my friend, rivrrat, has been kind enough to explain her position and what exactly she is talking about when she says she doesnt like what she doesnt like. Under a Social Healthcare your payment for healthcare is taken out of your taxes much like a monthly subscription would. It's not like you are giving anyone else anything---------because------youre-----not------

so stop lyin'. I know you spend a lot of money but get off your horse for a second because so does the rest of america and none of us are concerned with anything other than ourselves--such is our american ideology.:roll:


Thats like refusing to give money to charity because it's going towards someone else and not yourself. Wow, you work 60 hours a week and have $20,000 to pay back in a year? But you're getting a college education. When you're through you'll be forking in a 6 digit income. What the HECK are you complaining about?

it all seems rather lame and immature. You are all spoiled rotten. BIAS? Puh-leaze.

 

[Saboteur]

I didn't say the majority of the people in this country were freeloaders. I said the majority of people using our socialist systems are. (Welfare, Medicaid/Medicare - with the exception of the elderly

)

Oh okay. So there are exceptions to the rule of freeloader.

No, I wouldn't have the same choices. Every single procedure would be a political battle. It would federally mandated what I could or could not have done. Doctors would also be restricted in what they could do FOR patients and they would be restricted to federally mandated wages. I've elaborated on this several times. I've quoted articles that spelled it out more eloquently than I can.

It doesn't have to be this is an opportunity for the U.S. to be a leader in health care. So far we're just a tidge better than slovenia. So don't tell me about how great it is to not be great. That didn't make much sense but I'm leaving it:doh .

Anyway, I found your articles on post #47, yes the Canadian system seems flawed, it's their system though. I am not suggesting we adopt their's and should in no way be considered the end all be all for UHS, NHS or socialized medicine.

I also read the full article by Peitkof (I think that's the spelling, I'm sure I'll have lost the debate on those grounds alone if it's not.)

It read like capitalist propaganda with a lot of 'brave words' meant to invoke the feeling of american patriotism but really it was a bunch of garbage IMO. Didn't believe a word and not because I don't want to, but because it just didn't speak to me like it does you.

I don't know what you mean by laws being over ridden by people paying their way out. If you mean some sort of bribery, then no of course I don't agree with that.

I don't just mean corruption and bribary, I mean people who have enough money to buy a lawyer who gets people off of double murder charges like O.J.

What high horse? Personal responsibility is a "high horse"?

No I mean the attitude that everyone is a freeloader waiting to happen. You can use the for your sig if you want. I see WICrippler and Kasmos are spreading my message... They think it's funny but it gets to people also.

Trust me dude, I'm all for that test state idea. I would back it 100% just so I could watch it fail miserably and put all these socialist yahoos in their place. It would also help contain them for me.

I'd love the opprotunity to prove you wrong. I suppose you're picturing a bunch of 'dirty mexicans' while you say it too.:roll:

 

[TOJ]

Alright then. Do everyone a favor and read some of the past posts, please. Instead of just telling me to get off my a$$ and get a better job... it's been done. So, if you have anything useful to add please do, however just trying to insult me doesn't do much for you or your position.

That was not an insult. I was giving you some valuable advise. I have been reading this thread with interest and seen where others have tried giving you the same advise but you just ignored it. I thought you must have missed it or not understood it. I was trying a little reinforcement.

Before whining about someone insulting you, you should read your own posts, sweety.

And unless someone with a hell of a lot more authority over this site than you tells me otherwise, I will post what I want where I want.

 

[rivrrat]

Oh okay. So there are exceptions to the rule of freeloader.

freeloaders are generally drawn to freeloading opportunities.

It doesn't have to be this is an opportunity for the U.S. to be a leader in health care. So far we're just a tidge better than slovenia. So don't tell me about how great it is to not be great. That didn't make much sense but I'm leaving it:doh .

We are a leader in healthcare.

I don't just mean corruption and bribary, I mean people who have enough money to buy a lawyer who gets people off of double murder charges like O.J.

So now you take issue with our justice system? Isn't that a tad off topic? You think all attorneys should be government employees or something? God forbid we actually choose our own defense attorney, eh?

I don't have any issue at all with people paying for their own legal counsel.

I'd love the opprotunity to prove you wrong. I suppose you're picturing a bunch of 'dirty mexicans' while you say it too.:roll:

WTF? What the hell does "dirty mexicans" have to do with anything? That was just out of left field. And you wonder why I'm confused about some of the things you say?

 

[TOJ]

...

Trust me dude, I'm all for that test state idea. I would back it 100% just so I could watch it fail miserably and put all these socialist yahoos in their place. It would also help contain them for me.:

I thought we were going to get this opportunity a couple of years ago. Oregon had a referendum on the ballot that looked like it would pass. Unfortunately, someone pointed out the costs to maintain a system even close to what they had would have been unsustainable even in the short term and the very liberal people of that state voted it down.

 

[Saboteur]

That was not an insult. I was giving you some valuable advise. I have been reading this thread with interest and seen where others have tried giving you the same advise but you just ignored it. I thought you must have missed it or not understood it. I was trying a little reinforcement.

Before whining about someone insulting you, you should read your own posts, sweety.

And unless someone with a hell of a lot more authority over this site than you tells me otherwise, I will post what I want where I want.

Alright, my job is fine, I get decent benefits and I make alright money. Your advise is a little weak really though. Got anything to say about UHC and not just me?

 

[Saboteur]

We are a leader in healthcare.

Yeah just above the third world.

So now you take issue with our justice system? Isn't that a tad off topic? You think all attorneys should be government employees or something? God forbid we actually choose our own defense attorney, eh?

I'm just saying there's a law for the rich and a law for the poor. That's all.

I don't have any issue at all with people paying for their own legal counsel.

Me either.

WTF? What the hell does "dirty mexicans" have to do with anything? That was just out of left field. And you wonder why I'm confused about some of the things you say?

Aren't illegal immegrents part of the whole freeloader bunch? Even though I've seen them work harder, longer and better than pure bred americans.

Anyway I concede, charity, though I think it's totally inadiquate and if that were the sole solution for the poor, would be a mess provided all gov. social programs were eliminated. It still is better than nothing and doesn't infringe on anyones rights. However what would you think of gov. controlled gambiling? Outside of operating costs the profit goes to gov. subsidized healthcare. That way if you don't want to contribute to gov. healthcare or use the gov. program you don't have to and everybody else that chooses to gamble or use the system can. It would at least enhance charitable causes.

I am not suggesting though that private casino's be taken over I mean if you want to gamble without giving to gov. healthcare go to a private casino. Sound good?

 

[Saboteur]

my friend, rivrrat, has been kind enough to explain her position and what exactly she is talking about when she says she doesnt like what she doesnt like. Under a Social Healthcare your payment for healthcare is taken out of your taxes much like a monthly subscription would. It's not like you are giving anyone else anything---------because------youre-----not------

so stop lyin'. I know you spend a lot of money but get off your horse for a second because so does the rest of america and none of us are concerned with anything other than ourselves--such is our american ideology.:roll:


Thats like refusing to give money to charity because it's going towards someone else and not yourself. Wow, you work 60 hours a week and have $20,000 to pay back in a year? But you're getting a college education. When you're through you'll be forking in a 6 digit income. What the HECK are you complaining about?

it all seems rather lame and immature. You are all spoiled rotten. BIAS? Puh-leaze.

I'm just replying for fun here...

First, what are you talking about?

Second, I think most of the members on this site are lame and immature (not you rivrat).

 

[Saboteur]

I thought we were going to get this opportunity a couple of years ago. Oregon had a referendum on the ballot that looked like it would pass. Unfortunately, someone pointed out the costs to maintain a system even close to what they had would have been unsustainable even in the short term and the very liberal people of that state voted it down.

Seroiusly out of curiosity, was the idea that the system would be unsustainable spread by a series of 'smear' campaign commercials?

Or was there a type of town meeting debate about it?

 

[rivrrat]

Yeah just above the third world.

I get better care than third world countries. Far superior.

I'm just saying there's a law for the rich and a law for the poor. That's all.

No, there are good lawyers and bad lawyers. Generally the good ones are more expensive because they're worth it. And unless someone is paying off the jury or judge, it's all perfectly "equal".

Aren't illegal immegrents part of the whole freeloader bunch?

Of course they are because they're criminals who don't pay income taxes yet benefit from the services our taxes provide. But I fail to see what that has to do with your "dirty mexicans". Illegal immigrants come from all countries.

Anyway I concede, charity, though I think it's totally inadiquate and if that were the sole solution for the poor, would be a mess provided all gov. social programs were eliminated. It still is better than nothing and doesn't infringe on anyones rights. However what would you think of gov. controlled gambiling? Outside of operating costs the profit goes to gov. subsidized healthcare. That way if you don't want to contribute to gov. healthcare or use the gov. program you don't have to and everybody else that chooses to gamble or use the system can. It would at least enhance charitable causes.

I am not suggesting though that private casino's be taken over I mean if you want to gamble without giving to gov. healthcare go to a private casino. Sound good?

Why not just donate to a charitable cause? If I really want to help people, I'm not going to gamble with the money I want to help them with. Hell, I might win and end up doing the exact opposite of my intention. Easier to just donate the money.

 

[Saboteur]

Why not just donate to a charitable cause? If I really want to help people, I'm not going to gamble with the money I want to help them with. Hell, I might win and end up doing the exact opposite of my intention. Easier to just donate the money.

Sure it would just be easier to donate money I agree. But maybe a little incentive, like the chance of winning money, would be more favorable to people who don't give to charity at all. If there were som gov. casino's in every state, you hitting the jackpot where you are wouldn't take away so much of the profit that the whole system goes down. Heck, I've lived in MN for the past 10 years and the casino's here have probably paid out millions over that time, but the owners are still in business without any slow down in profit. In fact it increases every year despite joe miller winning $165,000.00 and Lucy Johnson winning $300,000.00 right after him.

 

[TOJ]

Seroiusly out of curiosity, was the idea that the system would be unsustainable spread by a series of 'smear' campaign commercials?

Or was there a type of town meeting debate about it?

I think most folks just figured out it would cause productive, self-reliant people to leave and attract folks like you who want someone else to take care of them. I was rooting for it. I really would like to see one or more states try it. :2wave:

 

[Saboteur]

I think most folks just figured out it would cause productive, self-reliant people to leave and attract folks like you who want someone else to take care of them. I was rooting for it. I really would like to see one or more states try it. :2wave:

Alright, you didn't answer my question so I guess I'll just have to take this as another jab at my character.

 

[TOJ]

Alright, you didn't answer my question so I guess I'll just have to take this as another jab at my character.

I don't know what caused them to change their minds. I wish they hadn't. My guess is you will find the reasons depend on who you ask. If you ask supporters of the idea like yourself, they will say because the big, bad healthcare industry lied and people died. If you ask an objective person, you would probably get an entirely different answer.

If you are that interested, look it up yourself. I'm sure you can find an answer you like.

 

[wonder cow]

That is also why when you charge your groceries to your credit card and use the store discount card you data (what you purchased) is forwarded to insurance companies.

Do you have evidence of this? A source?

I know that grocery stores collect and sell data if you use their discount card and no doubt credit card companies do (which is outrageous if they do it without consent IMO), but if credit cards and insurance companies have some kind of arrangement to share detailed purchase information, then this is a serious privacy issue.

 

[Saboteur]

I don't know what caused them to change their minds. I wish they hadn't. My guess is you will find the reasons depend on who you ask. If you ask supporters of the idea like yourself, they will say because the big, bad healthcare industry lied and people died. If you ask an objective person, you would probably get an entirely different answer.

If you are that interested, look it up yourself. I'm sure you can find an answer you like.

Of course I can find an answer I want to hear. But I want the truth.

Please stop pigeon holing me, you know nothing about me and I don't appreciate accusations based on assumptions.

 

[TOJ]

Of course I can find an answer I want to hear. But I want the truth.

Please stop pigeon holing me, you know nothing about me and I don't appreciate accusations based on assumptions.

YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!! :lol:

You pigeon holed yourself the first few pages of this thread so don't blame me for that

Who's truth? Unless you ask every voter and they tell you the truth, I don't know how you can ever know the real truth. I'm sure the supporters believe the voters were hoodwinked by the healthcare industry. I would bet those opposed are just as sure the voters finally woke up.

 

[Saboteur]

YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!! :lol:

You pigeon holed yourself the first few pages of this thread so don't blame me for that

Who's truth? Unless you ask every voter and they tell you the truth, I don't know how you can ever know the real truth. I'm sure the supporters believe the voters were hoodwinked by the healthcare industry. I would bet those opposed are just as sure the voters finally woke up.

I can handle the truth. Maybe you've got me figured out and that's fine. But I bet I surprize you later on.

See ya chum! :mrgreen:

 

[TOJ]

I can handle the truth. Maybe you've got me figured out and that's fine. But I bet I surprize you later on.

See ya chum! :mrgreen:

Bye sweetie. :2wave:

 

[nikitas3.com]

Michael Moore's movie should be called Fatso.
All health-care costs could be cut in half if the DEMOCRAT trial lawyers were restrained. This is the leading cause of med-inflation; fear of lawyers leading to more and more treatments, surgeries, procedures, to cover one's rear end. My mother felt ill at the doctor's office and the doctor summoned an ambulance, rather that wheel her 300 feet in a wheelchair through a hallway to the hospital in the next building. Fear of lawsuit! The ambulance bill: $500 for a 1 minute ride. DEMOCRATS oppose tort reform. Their ultimate goal: Wreck the private system so that everyone accepts socialism

 

[Saboteur]

Michael Moore's movie should be called Fatso.
All health-care costs could be cut in half if the DEMOCRAT trial lawyers were restrained. This is the leading cause of med-inflation; fear of lawyers leading to more and more treatments, surgeries, procedures, to cover one's rear end. My mother felt ill at the doctor's office and the doctor summoned an ambulance, rather that wheel her 300 feet in a wheelchair through a hallway to the hospital in the next building. Fear of lawsuit! The ambulance bill: $500 for a 1 minute ride. DEMOCRATS oppose tort reform. Their ultimate goal: Wreck the private system so that everyone accepts socialism

Yeah Moore sure is fat, no denying that. But the movie isn't about him. Could you elaborate on tort reform and democrat trial lawyers?

Simply because that's a new argument here, unlike the ones that have become cliche' enough to be in this satire;

village voice > news > This Modern World: Standard Conservative Responses to Health Care Reform by Tom Tomorrow

 

[ALiberalModerate]

Michael Moore's movie should be called Fatso.
All health-care costs could be cut in half if the DEMOCRAT trial lawyers were restrained. This is the leading cause of med-inflation; fear of lawyers leading to more and more treatments, surgeries, procedures, to cover one's rear end. My mother felt ill at the doctor's office and the doctor summoned an ambulance, rather that wheel her 300 feet in a wheelchair through a hallway to the hospital in the next building. Fear of lawsuit! The ambulance bill: $500 for a 1 minute ride. DEMOCRATS oppose tort reform. Their ultimate goal: Wreck the private system so that everyone accepts socialism

You would have a point if any of the states that have passed tort reform laws actually saw a corresponding drop in healthcare costs (Hint: They haven't).

 

[TOJ]

You would have a point if any of the states that have passed tort reform laws actually saw a corresponding drop in healthcare costs (Hint: They haven't).

Hint: None of them have passed any meaninful reform that cannot be circumvented.