$400,000 judgment against Portland bar

[roguenuke]

He has proven who he is. He shouldn't have to prove how he runs his business. His actions have for decades spoke loud and clear. But congrats. You ****ed him out of a business, his employees out of jobs, and a lot of other people including GLBT customers out of a spot. Win. You guys really get that 'win' thing.

I didn't specifically do anything to do this guy, but he is responsible for his actions, including trying to discriminate.

He didn't actually own the bar that whole time. He sold it to someone else, who defaulted. He came back to take over after an unspecified amount of time.

Portland club changes name, labor bureau investigates its treatment of crossdressers | OregonLive.com

He could have revamped the place the way he ended up doing without telling this group they couldn't come in on Fridays anymore. Why not just do that?

 

[justabubba]

Why are protecting choices all of a sudden? I understand the argument of protecting transgenders to a point, but after they made a choice it just comes down to forcing people to accept the choices of others and whatever conclusions they have of them. At that point it's not really comparable to innate characteristics, but more in line with things like the woman that fails to wear panties and a skirt long enough to cover her butt.

let's go with your example

and if that woman's inappropriate attire causes undesirable commotion in the establishment, management can ask her to leave

hopefully, you will then recognize how wrong (and illegal) it would be to exclude ALL women as customers only because of how this one dressed/acted

even more hopefully, you will be able to now substitute an inappropriate behaving transvestite for that woman, and realize that all transvestites should not be excluded for that one transvestite's inappropriate behavior

 

[ludin]

According to the opinion it was actually between 8 and 54 individuals in the group. A group that size is going to be a distraction in any bar no matter what their affiliation may be. Even if the average attendance was only 20 I can absolutely see how that would impact other patrons and especially so if it was a regular event.

it was every Friday night. they would come in disrupt other people. use the women bathroom with the stalls open so when other women came in they would
see a guy there standing up peeing.

they would leave the toilet seat up and not put it back down and probably other things as well.

in the bar business Friday and Saturday are the biggest nights of the week. more importantly is the women attendance at the bar.
if women don't feel comfortable coming into a bar they won't and they will leave.

women don't want to walk into a bathroom and see a man in there peeing or going to the toilet. it is disgusting behavior and
the owner has every right to ask them to stop or leave.

society has lost it's sanity in the name of PC. these so called accommodation laws are discriminating against people and their rights.
they should be outlawed as such.

 

[VanceMack]

Out of curiosity, where did you come up with those figures? I've been looking for them and haven't seen anything.

I cited the article just a few posts earlier.

 

[ludin]

let's go with your example

and if that woman's inappropriate attire causes undesirable commotion in the establishment, management can ask her to leave

yep and this group was causing an undesirable commotion in the establishment

hopefully, you will then recognize how wrong (and illegal) it would be to exclude ALL women as customers only because of how this one dressed/acted

he didn't exclude all of them. he just asked this group to not come back.

even more hopefully, you will be able to now substitute an inappropriate behaving transvestite for that woman, and realize that all transvestites should not be excluded for that one transvestite's inappropriate behavior

it was the group as a whole not all of seattle. you are wrong. and have been wrong from the get go.

 

[VanceMack]

I didn't specifically do anything to do this guy, but he is responsible for his actions, including trying to discriminate.

You and people like you have created a climate where a guy who has a DEMONSTRATED history of tolerance and nondiscrimination can be punished out of existence for trying to protect his business and customers against the actions of a group. Meh. Good job.

 

[ludin]

regarding being intolerant of provable, illegal discrimination in public places
you are finally correct

nope destroying peoples lives over perceived offense.
and yes liberal ideology is about the most intolerant thing out there.
you finally got something right in this thread.

no one illegally discriminated.

liberals got their wish.

this guys livelihood is now destroyed and they ruined the lives of 5 other people as well.
they should feel proud of themselves.

frankly they should be disgusted by their behavior and their actions.

 

[roguenuke]

so you are okay with a group basically changing a business, whether the owner wants that change or not

good to know

Changing it how? Bar patrons change. The bar can adapt or try to revamp to change it back. It is how the business works.

 

[roguenuke]

You and people like you have created a climate where a guy who has a DEMONSTRATED history of tolerance and nondiscrimination can be punished out of existence for trying to protect his business and customers against the actions of a group. Meh. Good job.

I don't agree with the size of the fine, but do see the necessity for such laws and their enforcement.

 

[Henrin]

let's go with your example

and if that woman's inappropriate attire causes undesirable commotion in the establishment, management can ask her to leave

hopefully, you will then recognize how wrong (and illegal) it would be to exclude ALL women as customers only because of how this one dressed/acted

even more hopefully, you will be able to now substitute an inappropriate behaving transvestite for that woman, and realize that all transvestites should not be excluded for that one transvestite's inappropriate behavior

Actually, if transvestites in general are a problem with my clientele then it's reasonable to exclude them. There is actually nothing about this that is different than the example I provided. In both cases the individuals have made a choice that is causing problems for my business that I don't have to tolerate.

 

[ludin]

Changing it how? Bar patrons change. The bar can adapt or try to revamp to change it back. It is how the business works.

he was losing clientele by the behavior of this group.
he was accommodating and everything else up until he started to lose business by their behavior when they were in the bar.

business works to protect their business and their clientele that is what he was doing and why he asked them
to not come back. they were driving off business.

 

[Hard Truth]

Laws prohibiting discrimination against gays and transgender people have been on the books in many localities since before the turn of the century. There have not been a significant number of public accommodation lawsuits as a result.

 

[roguenuke]

he was losing clientele by the behavior of this group.
he was accommodating and everything else up until he started to lose business by their behavior when they were in the bar.

business works to protect their business and their clientele that is what he was doing and why he asked them
to not come back. they were driving off business.

Again, there is no evidence that this is true. This is his claim, and you are agreeing with it, but neither of those things make this true.

 

[roguenuke]

I cited the article just a few posts earlier.

Can you please repost that link or at least the number of the post. I cannot find any link like that in your posts, even going back through them.

 

[ludin]

Again, there is no evidence that this is true. This is his claim, and you are agreeing with it, but neither of those things make this true.

because there is nothing to prove it false other than a politically driven state committee that has it out for people who don't think like they do.

 

[Lutherf]

It doesn't matter what he said was the reason. He doesn't actually know that this is the reason, only believes it.

And how can people showing up on more than one day make you look like a gay bar, but not having a night that you actually refer to as "gay night" make you look like a gay bar? This is not much different than "you can eat at the restaurant, but due to <factor x about you> you must eat separate than other people who don't have <factor x>". It is essentially "people of this orientation/gender identity can come in on this night, but not other nights".

It's one of those things that often happens in the bar business. Bars, especially those that have been around for a while, tend to take on the character of their regular clientele. If that clientele is working class sports fans it usually ends up as some version of a "team" bar. If it's a bar and grill kind of thing it often ends up as a neighborhood casual dining spot. If it hosts pool and dart tournaments it'll end up as a "club" bar. From the sound of things this place was more or less a "club" bar but one club started to overshadow the others and, since that club was a tranny club, the bar got a reputation as an "alternative lifestyle" place. The owner seems to have wanted to get it back to a more open environment and asked this one club to find somewhere else to gather. This actually makes a lot of sense if the other clubs (as has been suggested) were more focused on playing pool or some other activity while the club at the center of this controversy seems to have been more into a purely social and lifestyle thing. It's as much a factor of the type of activity going on as it is who is present that drives these things.

 

[VanceMack]

I don't agree with the size of the fine, but do see the necessity for such laws and their enforcement.

Of course you do...without regard to the facts of the case. Cuz...tolerance and all that bull****.

You have driven a man out of business and left 5 others unemployed. You have destroyed a business that has a demonstrated history of tolerance and in fact support towards the GLBT community. Well done. You couldnt be more effective if you were a Klansman.

 

[VanceMack]

Out of curiosity, where did you come up with those figures? I've been looking for them and haven't seen anything.

Penner said business had declined since the T-girls started coming to the bar. Between eight and 54 T-Girls came in on Friday nights. But all other P Club customers stopped coming, Penner said. In 2009, the bar sold a total of $110,000 in drinks on Friday nights, Penner said. By 2012, that dropped to $81,000.
"We said at the hearing he was an idiot when he said that," said Jonathan Radmacher, Penner's lawyer. "But he has a track record of decades of being supportive of the LGBT community.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOO...2013/08/bureau_of_labor_and_industries_1.html

 

[roguenuke]

because there is nothing to prove it false other than a politically driven state committee that has it out for people who don't think like they do.

Except for the fact that there are others that claim this didn't happen and the fact that he didn't actually state it was their behavior at all nor is there any evidence that he said anything to any of them about their behavior while being in the bar.

 

[roguenuke]

Penner said business had declined since the T-girls started coming to the bar. Between eight and 54 T-Girls came in on Friday nights. But all other P Club customers stopped coming, Penner said. In 2009, the bar sold a total of $110,000 in drinks on Friday nights, Penner said. By 2012, that dropped to $81,000.
"We said at the hearing he was an idiot when he said that," said Jonathan Radmacher, Penner's lawyer. "But he has a track record of decades of being supportive of the LGBT community.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOO...2013/08/bureau_of_labor_and_industries_1.html

That link is to a Monty Python sketch. Not the evidence you claimed.

And just because he claimed it, doesn't mean that happened. How can he prove that it was because of them, and not a bad economy? So what if there was a drop? That isn't evidence that it was because of them.

 

[ludin]

Except for the fact that there are others that claim this didn't happen and the fact that he didn't actually state it was their behavior at all nor is there any evidence that he said anything to any of them about their behavior while being in the bar.

the only people that claimed it didn't happen are a bunch of liberal ideologues that sit on the committee board.
I have no more reason to believe what they say.

there have been numerous articles posted that he was receiving complaints from other clients about their behavior more so when it
came to the women's bathroom that they should be in to begin with.

 

[roguenuke]

Of course you do...without regard to the facts of the case. Cuz...tolerance and all that bull****.

You have driven a man out of business and left 5 others unemployed. You have destroyed a business that has a demonstrated history of tolerance and in fact support towards the GLBT community. Well done. You couldnt be more effective if you were a Klansman.

So now you get to decide what I think? Um, no.

 

[roguenuke]

the only people that claimed it didn't happen are a bunch of liberal ideologues that sit on the committee board.
I have no more reason to believe what they say.

there have been numerous articles posted that he was receiving complaints from other clients about their behavior more so when it
came to the women's bathroom that they should be in to begin with.

There have been a number of articles posted that say he and his lawyer claim there were complaints from other customers. No articles posted so far have shown evidence from anyone else to support that claim.

 

[roguenuke]

It's one of those things that often happens in the bar business. Bars, especially those that have been around for a while, tend to take on the character of their regular clientele. If that clientele is working class sports fans it usually ends up as some version of a "team" bar. If it's a bar and grill kind of thing it often ends up as a neighborhood casual dining spot. If it hosts pool and dart tournaments it'll end up as a "club" bar. From the sound of things this place was more or less a "club" bar but one club started to overshadow the others and, since that club was a tranny club, the bar got a reputation as an "alternative lifestyle" place. The owner seems to have wanted to get it back to a more open environment and asked this one club to find somewhere else to gather. This actually makes a lot of sense if the other clubs (as has been suggested) were more focused on playing pool or some other activity while the club at the center of this controversy seems to have been more into a purely social and lifestyle thing. It's as much a factor of the type of activity going on as it is who is present that drives these things.

Then he is free to change the bar in a way that attracts different people (like he did), not to tell people they are not welcome.

 

[Lutherf]

Penner said business had declined since the T-girls started coming to the bar. Between eight and 54 T-Girls came in on Friday nights. But all other P Club customers stopped coming, Penner said. In 2009, the bar sold a total of $110,000 in drinks on Friday nights, Penner said. By 2012, that dropped to $81,000.
"We said at the hearing he was an idiot when he said that," said Jonathan Radmacher, Penner's lawyer. "But he has a track record of decades of being supportive of the LGBT community.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOO...2013/08/bureau_of_labor_and_industries_1.html

I'm not following. The link goes to a Monty Python video.