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2nd amendment voters more passionate than gun control advocates

I happen to believe it is the role of government to protect the citizens and allowing anyone to get guns is failing in this duty. But my argument is lost. The U.S. Supreme Court saw to that.

We happen to believe that it the role of the citizen to protect themselves from the government and allowing gun control the government would be failing in this duty. Yes, your argument is lost. The US Supreme Court ruled to uphold our Constitution so they saw to that.
 
This might surprise you but American gun violence gets reported in Europe, all the time.

Just like the USSR reported that Americans were starving and had no food during the cold war. I saw Yeltsin's when he walked into an American grocery store in 1997. He started crying when he realized how our grocery stores compared to the stores in Russia, even in 1997, after the Cold War was over. You believe the propaganda. That is on you for believing that lie.
 
I do not believe that the founders meant every nut case when the referred to members of a "well regulated militia" but the U.S. Supreme Court has said this clause has no meaning. The court was wrong but no one can argue with it because the framers of the Constitution said the justices are always right. LOL


You need to study up.

“Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers.” This was written by George Mason.
The English used militias in this sense before 1066. This type of militia was referred to as the “fyrd”. Colonial militias required that every able bodied male over 17 was required to be a member of the local militia. The militia would be commanded by a few officers that were usually local citizens that were appointed by the local government leaders or militia.
To understand the 2nd amendment one needs to look at the intent/purpose of the amendment when it was added to the constitution and the debate surrounding it when it was written and adopted. It was debated in the Ratification Debates.
There was debate on how much power that army should have compared to the citizens. The army would be to prevent insurrection and protect the country. England and other European countries had tried to disarm their citizens in order to further tyranny. America was the one of a few countries that had no such restrictions. The solution to this was to allow the citizens to “keep and bear arms”.

Good paper on the 2nd amendment.
A Primer on the Constitutional Right to Keep and Bear Arms
 
Just like the USSR reported that Americans were starving and had no food during the cold war. I saw Yeltsin's when he walked into an American grocery store in 1997. He started crying when he realized how our grocery stores compared to the stores in Russia, even in 1997, after the Cold War was over. You believe the propaganda. That is on you for believing that lie.

a guy I used to shoot with had been a top competitor for the USSR and he left because he was Jewish and didn't like being treated worse than guys he was better than. He noted what really caused the iron curtain to come down was partly due to the fact that soviet citizens were exposed to accurate views of America -be it students here or athletes like their tennis players and skaters coming here and seeing that women didn't have to stand in line an hour to buy toilet paper or pantyhose etc. too many Soviets had contact with people they trusted who came here in the 70s and reported what they saw in the USA and that sort of information undermined the propaganda they were being fed at home
 
We happen to believe that it the role of the citizen to protect themselves from the government and allowing gun control the government would be failing in this duty. Yes, your argument is lost. The US Supreme Court ruled to uphold our Constitution so they saw to that.

Okay, I have to ask. Sorry...

People think they need guns to protect themselves from the government that allows them to have guns to protect themselves (those same people) from that same government giving them the right to....

Sorry, but it seems really circular. Is there really a threat here? I don't know, just asking.
 
Okay, I have to ask. Sorry...

People think they need guns to protect themselves from the government that allows them to have guns to protect themselves (those same people) from that same government giving them the right to....

Sorry, but it seems really circular. Is there really a threat here? I don't know, just asking.

some parts of the government would love to disarm most citizens. but other parts actually follow the constitution
or at least realize the hell there would be to pay if they tried that crap
 
some parts of the government would love to disarm most citizens. but other parts actually follow the constitution
or at least realize the hell there would be to pay if they tried that crap

Okay, so some parts are bad, but some good. Never really thought about it to be honest.
 
Okay, so some parts are bad, but some good. Never really thought about it to be honest.

and depending on the issue-what is good in some areas can be bad in others and vice versa
 
Please show more respect for the U.S. Army than to equate them with gunlovers.

I was in the Army for 28 years. I love guns. My soldiers loved guns. We all loved guns. I still love guns. I have lots of guns. I will get more guns because I love guns so much. Being a gun lover isn't a bad thing.
 
a guy I used to shoot with had been a top competitor for the USSR and he left because he was Jewish and didn't like being treated worse than guys he was better than. He noted what really caused the iron curtain to come down was partly due to the fact that soviet citizens were exposed to accurate views of America -be it students here or athletes like their tennis players and skaters coming here and seeing that women didn't have to stand in line an hour to buy toilet paper or pantyhose etc. too many Soviets had contact with people they trusted who came here in the 70s and reported what they saw in the USA and that sort of information undermined the propaganda they were being fed at home

yeah, it was impossible to keep the cat in the bag forever.
 
Okay, I have to ask. Sorry...

People think they need guns to protect themselves from the government that allows them to have guns to protect themselves (those same people) from that same government giving them the right to....

Sorry, but it seems really circular. Is there really a threat here? I don't know, just asking.

I have a cut and paste. Anyone that has read any of my posts in the forum has seen it and I am sure it gets old but it is a good primer on what the 2nd is about and how it came about. It is easier than typing it every time.

Declaration of Independence:
Militia:
“Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers.” This was written by George Mason.
The English used militias in this sense before 1066. This type of militia was referred to as the “fyrd”. Colonial militias required that every able bodied male over 17 was required to be a member of the local militia. The militia would be commanded by a few officers that were usually local citizens that were appointed by the local government leaders or militia.
To understand the 2nd amendment one needs to look at the intent/purpose of the amendment when it was added to the constitution and the debate surrounding it when it was written and adopted. It was debated in the Ratification Debates.
There was debate on how much power that army should have compared to the citizens. The army would be to prevent insurrection and protect the country. England and other European countries had tried to disarm their citizens in order to further tyranny. America was the one of a few countries that had no such restrictions. The solution to this was to allow the citizens to “keep and bear arms”.
From Cornell (SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA et al. v. HELLER):
Held:
1. The Second Amendment protects an individual right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that arm for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home. Pp. 2–53.
(a) The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2–22.
(b) The prefatory clause comports with the Court’s interpretation of the operative clause. The “militia” comprised all males physically capable of acting in concert for the common defense. The Anti-federalists feared that the Federal Government would disarm the people in order to disable this citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule. The response was to deny Congress power to abridge the ancient right of individuals to keep and bear arms, so that the ideal of a citizens’ militia would be preserved. Pp. 22–28.

James Madison and James Mason were anti-federalists that wrote on the purpose of the 2nd amendment.



Declaration of Independence talks about the power of the citizens against tyranny:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

From Cornell (SUPREME COURT OF THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA et al. v. HELLER):

“keep and bear arms”:
Keep is the right to own arms.
Bear is the right to carry arms.


Good paper on the 2nd amendment. A Primer on the Constitutional Right to Keep and Bear Arms
 
None of the 18th century firearms would pose a threat to anyone today.

So you are saying if someone shot you with a 18th century firearm you would be fine? You wouldn't be killed if you were shot in the head or some other vital part of your body? If someone shot a 18th century grenade launcher or threw a 18th century grenade into a crowd of people then those people would be fine? No one would be severely injured or dead? I think you severely under estimating the lethality of 18th century firearms.


I am assuming that the framers of the Bill of Rights knew that people with brains would be following them in later centuries and be just as capable of amending the Constitution to meet developing needs.
Most opponents of the 2nd amendment do not believe in the amendment process. Instead they use the lie that the constitution is a living document so that they can make fraudulent interpretations that basically nullify the 2nd amendment.
 
Most opponents of the 2nd amendment do not believe in the amendment process. Instead they use the lie that the constitution is a living document so that they can make fraudulent interpretations that basically nullify the 2nd amendment.

Gotta love that way of putting it. Mob majority rule is all it takes when people are more willing to suck in the lies rather than defend their rights they think are still intact but denied to others they fear and hate.
 
D'ya think maybe there's places where the monkeys have learned not to fling poo so much? Places where you don't need to keep a handful in your pocket in case another monkey's gonna threaten to fling his at you?

Nope. If your a monkey, you fling poo. Its what you do. So yep a monkey should keep some around just in case the :hitsfan:. :cool:
 
Okay, I have to ask. Sorry...

People think they need guns to protect themselves from the government that allows them to have guns to protect themselves (those same people) from that same government giving them the right to....

Sorry, but it seems really circular. Is there really a threat here? I don't know, just asking.

Not circular at all.

Government is not the master and it has no power to allow citizens arms. Government governs with the CONSENT of the governed and the constitution lays down what government may not do. That little inconvenient clause in the 2A "shall not be infringed" is used nowhere else and shows the importance of keeping governments power grabbing hands off citizens arms. Apparently it is not enough to write on a piece of paper government may not. Government needs reminding of citizens laws and some enforcement if needed.
 
But - where do criminals get their guns?

Same place they get their drugs and recycled goods. If it is not available and in demand they import or invest in local manufacture.
 
yeah, it was impossible to keep the cat in the bag forever.

It took 33 years to get the prohibition cat out of the bag. Not due in anyway to the anti-dry movement. :)
 
many who join the volunteer army are far more supportive of Gun rights than say those who bash the army.

PW was in the army, that suggests a fair amount of respect for that institution

I think our friend needs to join the marines and get a first hand perspective of our armed forces. That would be the eye opener this person needs.
 
Same place they get their drugs and recycled goods. If it is not available and in demand they import or invest in local manufacture.

Yeah, a little over a year ago the feds shut down a massive illegal gun manufacturing operation.

In california of all places... The bluest of gun control states...

Two Mexicans charged with running outlaw gun factory in California | Reuters

And another one hardly a couple weeks ago, this one was actually MANUFACTURING GUNS as opposed to assembling illegal parts.

Feds Exaggerate As They Bust Eight In California Weapons Raid - Bearing Arms - Crime, ghost gun
 
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