$25K for new homebuyers? Yeah, dumb idea

[Cope]

There is no way someone who owns a home is going ask $25k above comps / market because... 20-30% of the market got a boost.

There is no way a real estate agent is going to recommend that a seller ask $25k above comps / market because first-time home buyers get a boost.

There are no homes that will sell exclusively -- or even predominantly, these days -- to first time buyers in today's market. A "starter home" does not refer to a size, or type, or price range of home, it's based on how long the buyer expects to live in the home. E.g. Older home owners, or people new to an area, are downsizing into what you might consider a "starter home."

And obviously, this isn't going to impact the upper half of the market.

By the way, Obama passed an $8,000 tax break for first time home owners in 2008. Surprise! It didn't cause home prices to rise (or fall, when the program ended).

It is plausible that this will encourage a few more people to buy homes (i.e. increase demand) and doesn't add to supply, and that can push up prices for lower-priced homes by a small amount. But there is no way it's going to increase the cost of homes by $25k across the board. That's just silly.

First time homes require first time home buyers. Everyone you listed above know who that is, and what houses those are.
Those houses will absolutely go up in price, which unfortunately will cause the other houses on the market to climb as well.

You can take heart in that it may not climb by the same percentage.

 

[NatMorton]

You literally claimed ther answer was "no". Now you agree it's more complex, and then to save face you claim I'm the one that was thinking too narrowly (when I informed you it was more complex!).
You don't appear to be debating in good faith.

I gave you the context of my answer. If you cannot understand it, or accept it as genuine, that is not my problem.

You continue to act like you didn't understand what he's asking.

No, I literally explained my understanding. That understanding may or may not match his intent. He's gotten rather slippery about his intent since I started questioning him about it.

Whatch, I'll show you how to be honest.

@bongsaway

I think they would deserve some of that profit, at least 10%-20%, probably more. All depends on a lot of factors, if the company was in debt, etc., but I'm gonna assume good case scenario.

And my position is that provided they've been paid a wage they (the employees) agreed to, those employees are no more deserving of a share of that company's profits than are you or I. That profit is the property of the company's owners, not of its employees.

 

[Ikari]

It's a bad idea mainly because it will raise housing prices. It may not be by 25K, but this is not a good idea. More infrastructure would be a better idea, raise supply to lower demand.

That only works well in a free market, but housing is a captured market. So "more houses" sounds good, but when a lot of the market is controlled by corporations or other oligarchies setting prices...it's not going to have a dramatic impact.

Harris' plan will not dramatically impact the market either. It's a band-aid proposal that doesn't address the fundamental, so if you want to attack her on something for this plan despite the fact that MAGA and Trump have no plan of their own, you can start there. Platitudes like "more houses" ain't going to cut it either.

 

[Airyaman]

Notice this guy doesn't mention the $25k so not all is bad in her plans?

 

[bongsaway]

You need to look beyond your own perception of things. A company may often have a "hiring" sign out because they're growing.

And you've gotten nothing from me in this thread other than my honest opinions about what I've said and what I mean. That is more than you can say.

It's not growing, it's in the same place it's been for over twenty years. I do not disagree you are giving me honest opinions.

 

[Cope]

Shhhhhhhhh

The point here is to mock Harris for having an idea that may help people buy homes, it's not to actually look at the system and the responses of market. We're here not to propose anything, or offer up what Trump has proposed to address the housing mess, it's just to mock Harris because she dares to want to address this even on a surface level.

The point was to mock Harris for promoting an idea, not fleshed out, for a lack of economic acumen.

In other words, this is another sound bite, not a true policy.

 

[bongsaway]

Mostly because I'm not easily duped and also realize that good intentions are not enough.

We ought to be focusing on helping the needy, not those who are relatively well off yet feel the need to own a home.

Without owning a home, you will always be under the gun paying someone else for something you will never own. Good plan.

 

[NatMorton]

Without owning a home, you will always be under the gun paying someone else for something you will never own. Good plan.

Correct. And if you purchase a home you cannot afford, you will be in even worse shape. That is the great lesson of the 2008 crash.

 

[Ikari]

The point was to mock Harris for promoting an idea, not fleshed out, for a lack of economic acumen.

In other words, this is another sound bite, not a true policy.

What!!!??? Politicians in middle of a campaign are trying to put out stump speeches and sound bites!!!??? Holy shit, when did this start happening? Why clearly they should have all their Congressional proposals fully fleshed out, written, and broken down for all of us.

Why I bet Trump isn't out there giving sound bites and stump speeches. Obviously he has everything completed in full and ready to go. Yes?

 

[Mr Person]

So....you don't know how to address it and any attempt that tries to address it you're just going to say is "stupid".

Yes?

lol

What plan does Trump have to address the gross overpricing of housing?

So... you don't have a clue how to rebut my point that the only response will be sellers raising their prices, likely more than the 25k credit, and you're going to call my response "stupid"?

Yes?

lol

And then you're going to whaddabout to Trump not having a plan?




Talk about stupid and dishonest. Perhaps the government could give credits to builders of lower-income housing while also capping the total profit they might reap. I dunno. I don't need a perfect solution to see the problem with her plan. And the Trump deflection is ....well, it's hard to state just how idiotically snotty that is. That Trump doesn't have a plan doesn't make any and all other plans automatically good.

Maybe it sounded like a debate board zinger, but it's a completely asinine thing to say.

 

[Ikari]

So... you don't have a clue how to rebut my point that the only response will be sellers raising their prices, likely more than the 25k credit, and you're going to call my response "stupid"?

Yes?

lol

And then you're going to whaddabout to Trump not having a plan?




Talk about stupid and dishonest. Perhaps the government could give credits to builders of lower-income housing while also capping the total profit they might reap. I dunno. I don't need a perfect solution to see the problem with her plan. And the Trump deflection is ....well, it's hard to state just how idiotically snotty that is. That Trump doesn't have a plan doesn't make any and all other plans automatically good.

You don't have a point. You just said "blah blah blah this is stupid blah blah blah"

Come back when you DO have a point.

lol

 

[daeler]

That only works well in a free market, but housing is a captured market. So "more houses" sounds good, but when a lot of the market is controlled by corporations or other oligarchies setting prices...it's not going to have a dramatic impact.

I disagree, when supply is higher than demand prices always drop, it has an effect. It can be dramatic if the supply is large enough.

Harris' plan will not dramatically impact the market either. It's a band-aid proposal that doesn't address the fundamental,

It's economic plans like these that cause inflation. By giving people money to buy house she will raise demand higher than supply which will increase housing prices. This is basic economy supply vs demand.

so if you want to attack her on something for this plan despite the fact that MAGA and Trump have no plan of their own, you can start there. Platitudes like "more houses" ain't going to cut it either.

Why do people jump to this? Do I have to be attacking Harris because I disagree with one policy? Can't I just support Harris and disagree with this particular policy?

Who cares about Trump and MAGA? we are talking about this policy. When they have a policy we can then talk about that one.

 

[Mr Person]

So it seems Harris/Walz is floating this turd of a policy



I get it might look attractive to young people wanting to get into unaffordable homes, but injecting government money is only going to making housing even more expensive.

Dumb.

Apparently the facts that you did not include a magical solution to rising home prices and that Trump doesn't have a plan means Harris's plan is automatically awesome and cannot be criticized. Because that's how logic and debate work, or something.

Just ask @Ikari.


(The reference is above...)

 

[NatMorton]

You don't have a point. You just said "blah blah blah this is stupid blah blah blah"

Come back when you DO have a point.

lol

Rare is the time I'm in agreement with Mr. Person, but he's absolutely right on this. He's making a point and you're ducking it.

 

[KingLeo]

I think this is a much better idea to start with.

Cutting the Hedges: The Bill to Ban Hedge Fund Home Buying​

The proposed End Hedge Fund Control of American Homes Act would stop institutional investors from buying single-family properties and force them to empty their residential real estate portfolios over a 10-year stretch.
Hedge funds and other institutional investors stand as a major detriment for home buyers, as they use their huge capital reserves to scoop up available properties. This reduces the already-slim inventory in the marketplace, creating a more acute affordability crunch. Additionally, their abilities to outbid normal borrowers and offer all cash make house hunting more difficult.

Merkley, Smith Lead Bicameral Action to Ban Hedge Fund Ownership of Residential Housing - Merkley

End Hedge Fund Control of American Homes Act

www.merkley.senate.gov

 

[Airyaman]

Housing Market Still A Struggle For First-Time Buyers | Bankrate

First-time buyers make up a third of the housing market, according to the National Association of Realtors. But the challenges are real.

www.bankrate.com

According to Bankrate’s survey, 73 percent of non-homeowners who hope to own someday cited personal affordability issues as their largest obstacle. Insufficient income was cited by 46 percent, and 40 percent noted an inability to afford a down payment and closing costs. Meanwhile, 53 percent named market conditions, like low inventory and high mortgage rates, as an obstacle.

$25k could help with affordability but the other component low inventory means there is still more demand than supply. So that $25k will mean sellers can ask for more.

 

[bongsaway]

Correct. And if you purchase a home you cannot afford, you will be in even worse shape. That is the great lesson of the 2008 crash.

Once again you want to blame the consumer and not corporate America for creating the conditions for the crash to happen. They created the worthless pieces of shit they were selling the consumer and the banks were more than happy to play along as long as they were getting their cut. The markets knew they were selling worthless crap and so did the banks, they both knew it would eventually all come crashing down and then the taxpayers had to pay to bail out the free markets. Millions of people got ****ed from that fiasco and most of us ended up bearing the burden.

 

[Michael Cole]

Cash payments don't sound wise. The VA system works well. Give qualified buyers a similar deal given to vets. Or at least work off of that template.

 

[Michael Cole]

Housing Market Still A Struggle For First-Time Buyers | Bankrate

First-time buyers make up a third of the housing market, according to the National Association of Realtors. But the challenges are real.

www.bankrate.com

$25k could help with affordability but the other component low inventory means there is still more demand than supply. So that $25k will mean sellers can ask for more.

$25k buys much more house in Cheyenne than in Seattle.

This is a huge flaw in the proposal. One-size-fits-all defies the reality of the housing market. A percentage-based proposal would be preferable.

 

[Ikari]

I disagree, when supply is higher than demand prices always drop, it has an effect. It can be dramatic if the supply is large enough.

It's economic plans like these that cause inflation. By giving people money to buy house she will raise demand higher than supply which will increase housing prices. This is basic economy supply vs demand.

Why do people jump to this? Do I have to be attacking Harris because I disagree with one policy? Can't I just support Harris and disagree with this particular policy?

Who cares about Trump and MAGA? we are talking about this policy. When they have a policy we can then talk about that one.

You would have to saturate the market to start making a dent, and I'm not sure that could be done.

This isn't "basic economy" because this isn't a free market, it's a captured market. Captured markets don't immediately respond to supply vs demand.

So Kamala put out a statement on some plan she might pursue to address the housing crisis in America, it won't raise costs of homes appreciably, the home prices are already inflated far past market value or rather free-market value. It might help first time home buyers, not as much as crashing out the market would help first time home buyers, but that's a different "solution".

 

[Rumblefish]

It's like posters on this forum haven't heard of Hometown Hero programs that offer down payment and closing cost assistance to first-time home buyers.

 

[NatMorton]

Let's think about this for a moment. The median price of a home in the US is about $450k. There are various rules of thumb for determining how much home you can afford based on your income. If you apply the most commonly used of those rules you find that it is recommended you should be making $150k to $180k per year to afford a $450k home.

So that's what we're doing here, subsidizing people with six figure incomes?

Or look at this way. I Googled the starting salary of a public school reading tutor, and curiously enough the average starting salary was listed as $24,444 per year. So, which do we think would do more public good, helping out 100,000 six figure income families per year or hiring a 100,000 urban public school reading tutors?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

There is no shortage of housing. There is price gouging going on. The key word there is “affordable” is big corporate real estate owners have been mass buying houses to jack up the costs.

In many areas there really IS a shortage of inventory.
Investor groups, some of them foreign, really ARE gobbling up as many homes as they can get their hands on and converting them to rentals.
For instance, now that China's ghost city homes and apartments are no longer considered sound investments, dozens of major Chinese banks are scrambling to re-provision their portfolios with something that actually HAS intrinsic value and apparently that would be private US homes.

No less than seventy-some homes in our former 250 home neighborhood of Mansfield TX are now Chinese owned and are being rented out.
One of Remington Ranch's original selling points back when the neighborhood was built in 2004 was that it was a stable family oriented place to buy a home.

The Brentwood hamlet where my parents spent their last years together while Dad was still alive now has something like twenty percent AIR BnB properties, also bought up by "investor groups".

You know where there's no shortage of housing inventory for sale?
Check out cheapoldhouses.com but beware that 90 percent of the homes listed are located where there are no businesses, no jobs, little to no infrastructure and a WHOLE LOTTA NUTHIN for miles around, and where the next town might be thirty miles away.

 

[Ikari]

Apparently the facts that you did not include a magical solution to rising home prices and that Trump doesn't have a plan means Harris's plan is automatically awesome and cannot be criticized. Because that's how logic and debate work, or something.

Just ask @Ikari.


(The reference is above...)

I didn't say it was awesome, I'm saying you didn't have a point. Which you didn't.

 

[NatMorton]

Once again you want to blame the consumer and not corporate America for creating the conditions for the crash to happen. They created the worthless pieces of shit they were selling the consumer and the banks were more than happy to play along as long as they were getting their cut. The markets knew they were selling worthless crap and so did the banks, they both knew it would eventually all come crashing down and then the taxpayers had to pay to bail out the free markets. Millions of people got ****ed from that fiasco and most of us ended up bearing the burden.

Do you recall the concept of a "liar loan?" If you do, who was doing the lying?

And yes, when you agree to take a mortgage, it is on you to ensure you have the means to repay the loan.