250+ Disturbing facts surrounding 9/11

[Demon of Light]

Did I say 'every last piece of the towers, even parts well below where the planes hit, fell on these four black boxes'? No, I did not. You're reading something into it that isn't there, to no ones real surprise. The fact that you're arguing something I did not say or imply says a lot about you and your beliefs in this matter.

Even if you take the weight of just what was above the planes, and consider a small fraction of said weight, it is well beyond 'thousands of pounds'.

I wasn't reading anything into what you said other than what you said. You quote something naming the entire weight of the towers after commenting about how it was not meant to endure millions of pounds. I already addressed this in fact because I noted that this weight would not be evenly distributed and even if it was that would be well within its endurance.

Also, it seems no one is even interested in touching the simple fact that there was a clean hole all the way through both towers meaning there is a strong chance at least one or two of the black boxes was not even in the towers at the time of collapse.

Never mind that even when the data is destroyed the black box itself is still almost always found.

Have you contacted any flight recorder manufacturers to ask if their product could withstand all the individual tests they put them through... all at one time?

Seriously, think about what you are saying for a moment. They expose them to the kind of heat that is about what would occur in a crash and impact damage that would likely occur in any crash. You are arguing that somehow they did not anticipate the regular impact damage in a crash would occur at the same time as the regular heat in a crash.

 

[Whovian]

I wasn't reading anything into what you said other than what you said. You quote something naming the entire weight of the towers after commenting about how it was not meant to endure millions of pounds. I already addressed this in fact because I noted that this weight would not be evenly distributed and even if it was that would be well within its endurance.

Also, it seems no one is even interested in touching the simple fact that there was a clean hole all the way through both towers meaning there is a strong chance at least one or two of the black boxes was not even in the towers at the time of collapse.

Never mind that even when the data is destroyed the black box itself is still almost always found.



Seriously, think about what you are saying for a moment. They expose them to the kind of heat that is about what would occur in a crash and impact damage that would likely occur in any crash. You are arguing that somehow they did not anticipate the regular impact damage in a crash would occur at the same time as the regular heat in a crash.

Giving you the weight of the towers in total was for informational purposes. I was trying to impart some semblance of actual knowledge into you, as opposed to the sources you normally rely on for your information. OBVIOUOSLY, anyone with an once of common sense would understand that I was not even REMOTELY claiming that the entire weight of the towers fell on the flight recorders.

I'll take that as 'No, I did not do any real research with people who actually know what they are talking about... instead, I concentrated my efforts on nonsense blogs, useless videos by teens, and my own imaginings'.

 

[Demon of Light]

Giving you the weight of the towers in total was for informational purposes. I was trying to impart some semblance of actual knowledge into you, as opposed to the sources you normally rely on for your information. OBVIOUOSLY, anyone with an once of common sense would understand that I was not even REMOTELY claiming that the entire weight of the towers fell on the flight recorders.

I'll take that as 'No, I did not do any real research with people who actually know what they are talking about... instead, I concentrated my efforts on nonsense blogs, useless videos by teens, and my own imaginings'.

Why do people always think they know what I am reading? All I have ever cited are reliable and objective sources so the notion that I am actually uninformed or not doing real research is just ridiculous. I think you just do not have a reasonable response to what I said so you resort to personal attacks.

 

[Whovian]

Why do people always think they know what I am reading?

All I have ever cited are reliable and objective sources...

It's blatantly obvious, that's why.

Ridiculous. There is not a single credible or reliable resource that can prove 9/11 was an inside job. Your sources are garbage. Period. I feel sad for you, knowing how desperately you cling to the believe that it was.

 

[Demon of Light]

It's blatantly obvious, that's why.

Ridiculous. There is not a single credible or reliable resource that can prove 9/11 was an inside job. Your sources are garbage. Period. I feel sad for you, knowing how desperately you cling to the believe that it was.

I hate to disappoint you, but I mostly get my information from the mainstream media and other reliable sources. That is not enough to prove a conspiracy, but it provides enough basis for doubting the official story.

 

[Whovian]

I hate to disappoint you, but I mostly get my information from the mainstream media and other reliable sources. That is not enough to prove a conspiracy, but it provides enough basis for doubting the official story.

Please show us one major mainstream source that proves conclusively that 9/11 was an inside job. Someone like CNN, ABC News, CBS News, etc. Not Huf Po or some other rag or online blog. Something that can be independently verified.

 

[Whovian]

The Black Boxes - 911myths

The flight 77 cockpit voice recorder casing... and it didn't have several floors of a building fall on it.

Black boxes not indestructible:

The crew of the Korean Air (KAL) Boeing MD-11 freighter which crashed near Shanghai on 15 April complained to each other of control problems soon after take-off, according to an initial decoding of the aircraft's cockpit voice recorder (CVR)...
The CAAC, which is being assisted in its investigation by the NTSB and the Korean Civil Aviation Bureau, says the aircraft's flight data recorder was destroyed by the impact, "and only fragments of the tape have been recovered".

The helicopter was not found until the next day at 9:45 a.m., thirty hours later. Searchers were hampered by thick brush because very little of the helicopter remained. Even the flight data recorder had been destroyed.

The so-called black box, which records the cockpit conversations of the pilot and co-pilot, was destroyed by fire after the MK Airlines Ltd. jumbo jet crashed on takeoff last Thursday at Halifax International Airport.

Fowler said the recorder was found Monday and shipped to the board's lab in Ottawa.

It was quickly determined that no recording survived the fire that resulted when the jet, carrying a full load of fuel, hit the ground and broke up.

During their second attempt, the pilots failed to notice a left-hand drift, which caused the aircraft to roll over when it touched down. Although the crew evacuated safely, the aircraft and its flight data recorder were destroyed in the resulting fire.

As for the guys who 'supposedly' helped the FBI 'find' the black boxes?

...the story was first mentioned in a book, and any controversy would generate a few more sales. The proceeds were for Bellone’s Trauma Response Assistance for Children (TRAC) Team, however, so this seemed like a worthy cause... Until we discovered a few newspaper reports...

The Post has learned that the group:

* Owes New Jersey graphics company ADP $200,000 for printing its self-published book about Ground Zero.

* Stiffed a company that provided the American flags TRAC hands out to local dignitaries.

* Left a cross-country trail of more than $20,000 in unpaid bills, including hotel rooms, flights, FDNY shirts, business cards and even prescription drugs.

Any and all of these points can easily be verified and corroborated by mainstream news outlets.

So... in conclusion, it is certainly possible that the black boxes did not survive the crash into the towers. It is certainly possible that DeMasi and Bellone LIED about 'finding' them with the FBI to generate sales for their books and publicity for their bogus charity.

But I fully expect deniers and conspiracy nuts here to poo-poo all this because it doesn't fit their mindset.

 

[I_Gaze_At_The_Blue]

I already addressed this in fact because I noted that this weight would not be evenly distributed and even if it was that would be well within its endurance.

Excuse me ... are you really saying that the "weight" of the collapsing Towers, even if just the bit above the area where the planes were, is "still" within tolerance of the black boxes ???

For that is truly moronic ... to think that the weight and energy impact of for Tower 1, hit between the 93rd and 99th floors, leaving 11 storeys to fall on top of Flight 11's boxes was within the range of the boxes test specification ... are you for real ???

And for Tower 2, the weight and energy coming down on top of the black boxes would be even greater, as Flight 175 which hit between floors 77 and 85, meaning that 25 storeys of a building an acre coverage whose dead weight alone per floor was around 10,220,630 lb !!!

Are you seriously thinking that even just one floor falling, whose dead load, which discounts things like the contents and equipment and people, and in the order of TENS OF MILLIONS OF POUNDS is survivable for a black box whose upper tolerarances is for thousands of pounds pressure ... are you for real ???

Do you understand the difference it makes to weight of it being dynamic ... do you know the difference between static and dynamic forces ???

Are you really so ignorant of physics and maths as to think that 11 and 25 storeys of buildings covering an acre each is equal to the boxes tolerances ???

That is truly asinine ... sorry, Demon it is !!!

http://www.911myths.com/WTCREPORT.pdf

Also, it seems no one is even interested in touching the simple fact that there was a clean hole all the way through both towers meaning there is a strong chance at least one or two of the black boxes was not even in the towers at the time of collapse.

Ah! so the planes just flew clean through the Towers then ... :roll:

God, that is dense !!!

Where are the black boxes found on an aircraft ???

Are they in the nose cone ???

Are they in the tail section ...

Did the tail sections of the aircraft at any time EVER exit the buildings ???

The correct answer is NO ... ergo, the black boxes were INSIDE the buildings !!!

Never mind that even when the data is destroyed the black box itself is still almost always found.

Why do you say "almost" and "always" if you genuinely believe they are beyond destruction ???

Seriously, think about what you are saying for a moment. They expose them to the kind of heat that is about what would occur in a crash and impact damage that would likely occur in any crash. You are arguing that somehow they did not anticipate the regular impact damage in a crash would occur at the same time as the regular heat in a crash.

Bollocks, that is not what Whovian claims ... that is your rather weak spin on what he says !!!

For on what planet was the impacts of 9/11 a "regular" aircrash ???

You are aware that MOST plane crashed happen on take-off or landing, in either case the pilots will try to DUMP as much fuel as possible, as well as reduce speed.

Do you understand why pilots even dump fuel for just a routine emergency such as a medical landing ???





Aerospaceweb.org | Ask Us - Airliner Black Boxes

So again, on what planet is an impact involving MORE fuel than a "regular" crash and MORE velocity than a "regular" crash what those tests are accounting for ???

But you entirely MISSED answering what was asked of you, which was ... WILL YOU CONTACT THE BLACK BOX MANUFACTURES TO TEST YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF THEIR SPECIFICATIONS ???

And I will add to that ... IF NOT ... WHY NOT ???

 

[I_Gaze_At_The_Blue]

All I have ever cited are reliable and objective sources so the notion that I am actually uninformed or not doing real research is just ridiculous.

And WHO is MORE credible than the ACTUAL manufacturers themselves ... so WHY have you not contacted them if you are so interested, as you say, in real research ???

Throughout this entire thread you have cited JUST one source ..."How Stuff Works" ... which considering its target demographic of mostly youngsters is not the most technically detailed and authorative source going ... now there is nothing particularly wrong with it, but condering how you are commenting on the technical capabilites of a piece of technology, surely it is better to go to "THE" most authorative ... which IS the manufacturers and aircrash investigators direct ???

Howstuffworks.com Site Info

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[usda select]

And WHO is MORE credible than the ACTUAL manufacturers themselves ... so WHY have you not contacted them if you are so interested, as you say, in real research ???

Throughout this entire thread you have cited JUST one source ..."How Stuff Works" ... which considering its target demographic of mostly youngsters is not the most technically detailed and authorative source going ... now there is nothing particularly wrong with it, but condering how you are commenting on the technical capabilites of a piece of technology, surely it is better to go to "THE" most authorative ... which IS the manufacturers and aircrash investigators direct ???

Howstuffworks.com Site Info

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Sometimes I get the feeling that all of the self defined truth seekers work for a construction company in Mississippi. Their slogan is:

If you got a molehill, we'll make it into a mountain. Gar-on-teed!

 

[Demon of Light]

Please show us one major mainstream source that proves conclusively that 9/11 was an inside job.

Did you read my post at all?

The flight 77 cockpit voice recorder casing... and it didn't have several floors of a building fall on it.

No, but that plane did crash into a solid reinforced wall. Also the entire weight of the WTC floors above would not fall on just those four black boxes. The weight would have been distributed along a large area and it would not be evenly distributed.

Once more, we also have to assume that all of the black boxes were in the building, an assumption that is very likely to be wrong.

 

[Whovian]

Did you read my post at all?



No, but that plane did crash into a solid reinforced wall. Also the entire weight of the WTC floors above would not fall on just those four black boxes. The weight would have been distributed along a large area and it would not be evenly distributed.

Once more, we also have to assume that all of the black boxes were in the building, an assumption that is very likely to be wrong.

Yes, I did... it's nonsense.

You're actually trying to say that flying 'into a single reinforce wall' would do MORE damage to a black box than having a portion of the weight of 15 floors of the Trade Center falling on a black box along with the resulting fire and eventual crash to the ground with all the kinetic energy of portion of the weight of 15 floors of the Trade Center falling on top of it ? Really? What college did you go to? I want to make sure my son doesn't go there.

I already explained to you... I did not say the ENTIRE WEIGHT of the floors above fell on the boxes... only a fraction would have. But a fraction of that weight is well beyond the design tolerance of the black boxes. THAT, is what you continue to fail to comprehend.

Why, because YOU say it is likely to be wrong?

 

[Demon of Light]

Yes, I did... it's nonsense.

You're actually trying to say that flying 'into a single reinforce wall' would do MORE damage to a black box than having a portion of the weight of 15 floors of the Trade Center falling on a black box along with the resulting fire and eventual crash to the ground with all the kinetic energy of portion of the weight of 15 floors of the Trade Center falling on top of it ? Really? What college did you go to? I want to make sure my son doesn't go there.

I already explained to you... I did not say the ENTIRE WEIGHT of the floors above fell on the boxes... only a fraction would have. But a fraction of that weight is well beyond the design tolerance of the black boxes. THAT, is what you continue to fail to comprehend.

It depends on the fraction we are talking about. These black boxes are pretty small compared to the buildings and like I said the weight was not evenly distributed. Even if we presume all of the black boxes were in the Towers, a likelihood that none of you have even tried to address, the chances that they were all pulverized and thus not possible to find is very low.

 

[Whovian]

It depends on the fraction we are talking about. These black boxes are pretty small compared to the buildings and like I said the weight was not evenly distributed. Even if we presume all of the black boxes were in the Towers, a likelihood that none of you have even tried to address, the chances that they were all pulverized and thus not possible to find is very low.

Said chances are higher by a long shot than 'the boxes survived, but are being hidden by the government because 9/11 was an inside job'.

 

[I_Gaze_At_The_Blue]

. Even if we presume all of the black boxes were in the Towers, a likelihood that none of you have even tried to address,

What a blatent and outright lie, for I addressed this exact point not seven posts ago !!!

Perhaps Demon has me on ignore (the sign of losing your argument already) ... in which case if someone else could repost for me ... thanks ... :2wave:

 

[Whovian]

. Even if we presume all of the black boxes were in the Towers, a likelihood that none of you have even tried to address,

What a blatent and outright lie, for I addressed this exact point not seven posts ago !!!

Perhaps Demon has me on ignore (the sign of losing your argument already) ... in which case if someone else could repost for me ... thanks ... :2wave:

You mean THIS post???

Ah! so the planes just flew clean through the Towers then ...

God, that is dense !!!

Where are the black boxes found on an aircraft ???

Are they in the nose cone ???

Are they in the tail section ...

Did the tail sections of the aircraft at any time EVER exit the buildings ???

The correct answer is NO ... ergo, the black boxes were INSIDE the buildings !!!

 

[Demon of Light]

Said chances are higher by a long shot than 'the boxes survived, but are being hidden by the government because 9/11 was an inside job'.

What is your rationale for saying it is more likely that none of the boxes were found? How do you gauge the probability of a conspiracy or cover-up? Do you have some basis beyond your own personal disbelief?

What a blatent and outright lie, for I addressed this exact point not seven posts ago !!!

Perhaps Demon has me on ignore (the sign of losing your argument already) ... in which case if someone else could repost for me ... thanks ... :2wave:

I do not have you on ignore, but when your posts consist largely of personal attacks I tend to ignore your posts all by myself. However, what you said is ultimately quite absurd. What are you basing the claim that neither tail section flew out the other side of one of the towers? I know pieces of the fuselage were recovered outside the building and it seems this was part of the tail section. Even if you were right, and it appears you are not, that says nothing of the black boxes as they are not all tightly knotted together so as to make it impossible for the black boxes to be separate from the fuselage's tail section.

 

[Whovian]

What is your rationale for saying it is more likely that none of the boxes were found? How do you gauge the probability of a conspiracy or cover-up? Do you have some basis beyond your own personal disbelief?.

The answer to your 1st and 3rd qustion... the laws of physics, which you ignore.

As there is zero credible, reliable scientific evidence to prove there was a conspiracy or cover up, I use that lack of evidence, as evidence there was no conspiracy or cover up.

All your 'sources' have been continually debunked since day one. That fact that you continue to cling to this silly little fantasy you and a handful of nut-jobs have concocted says a lot about you.
(Note for reference, I did not call you a nut job.. please re-read what I wrote... thanks)

 

[Demon of Light]

The answer to your 1st and 3rd qustion... the laws of physics, which you ignore.

How do the laws of physics impact the probability of a federal agent concealing or destroying evidence compared to the probability of them not being found?

As there is zero credible, reliable scientific evidence to prove there was a conspiracy or cover up, I use that lack of evidence, as evidence there was no conspiracy or cover up.

You presume there is an actual lack of evidence in that regard. There is nothing conclusive, but plenty that is suggestive of a conspiracy or cover-up.

All your 'sources' have been continually debunked since day one.

Again with you presuming to know what sources I use.

 

[Whovian]

Again with you presuming to know what sources I use.

All I know is what you've posted as sources...all of which have been debunked repeatedly, ad nausea.

If you have other sources that we'd find credible, reliable, and not tin-foil-hatty, please do share them with us. Otherwise, we are force to rely on what you've actually posted.

Personally, I prefer to work with evidence. Actual physical evidence. And as there is no physical evidence the black boxes survived, only some yokel I already discredited, the logical conclusion is that the boxes did not survive.

Sorry if that bursts your delusion, but facts are facts. You've offered none. Thanks for playing.

 

[Whovian]

9-11 Loose Change Second Edition Viewer Guide And debunking of various 9/11 conspiracy theories

 

[Demon of Light]

All I know is what you've posted as sources...all of which have been debunked repeatedly, ad nausea.

None of the sources I have posted have been debunked. Obviously you are getting my sources mixed up with some other person's sources.

 

[Whovian]

None of the sources I have posted have been debunked. Obviously you are getting my sources mixed up with some other person's sources.

It's obvious that reality and you are not on speaking terms and never will be.

 

[Demon of Light]

It's obvious that reality and you are not on speaking terms and never will be.

Point out a source I gave in any thread in this forum that anyone debunked.

 

[creativedreams]

Anyone who has looked through the list of disturbing facts and still beleives the "official story" spoonfed to them is clearly in denial..........or is the true person who is mentally unstable and incapable of self reasoning...