250+ Disturbing facts surrounding 9/11

[Demon of Light]

Maybe none of you get it. The black box is designed to survive in much higher temperatures than it likely reached in the WTC for at least an hour. Sometimes the data inside is destroyed, but the specific cases you mention all include them having been found even if they were just hunks of metal. In most of those cases there is at least some retrievable data on one of them. One notable case where the black boxes were not found is that Air France flight that crashed in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, which is hardly a basis for establishing the plausibility in this case.

As far as the passport, I am not challenging the notion that it could have survived and been found, but rather the notion that somehow this is not the case with the black boxes that are actually designed to survive such conditions. Also, regular papers inside the buildings are an entirely different story for countless reasons.

 

[mike2810]

Black box data can be used help determine the mechanical status of the aircraft. It also can provide info on what the cockpit crew were saying. since, imo, the planes were dilbrately flown into the buildings, Data from the boxes is a mute point and adds little to the investigation results. So what do you think the boxes would reviel that is not already known?

 

[Demon of Light]

Black box data can be used help determine the mechanical status of the aircraft. It also can provide info on what the cockpit crew were saying. since, imo, the planes were dilbrately flown into the buildings, Data from the boxes is a mute point and adds little to the investigation results. So what do you think the boxes would reviel that is not already known?

What they were saying or the possible identity of the voices are points to consider.

 

[creativedreams]

New York Firefighter Nicholas DeMasi witnessed the finding of three of the black boxes at ground zero and claims there is a cover-up. Who would you believe first...a firefighter at the scene or a federal agent of the most sneaky and secretive country in the world????

Two men who worked extensively in the wreckage of the World Trade Center claim they helped federal agents find three of the four "black boxes" from the jetliners that struck the towers on 9/11 - contradicting the official account.

Philadelphia Daily News | 10/28/2004 | 2 say they found 9/11 'black boxes'

 

[usda select]

Maybe none of you get it. The black box is designed to survive in much higher temperatures than it likely reached in the WTC for at least an hour. Sometimes the data inside is destroyed, but the specific cases you mention all include them having been found even if they were just hunks of metal. In most of those cases there is at least some retrievable data on one of them. One notable case where the black boxes were not found is that Air France flight that crashed in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, which is hardly a basis for establishing the plausibility in this case.

As far as the passport, I am not challenging the notion that it could have survived and been found, but rather the notion that somehow this is not the case with the black boxes that are actually designed to survive such conditions. Also, regular papers inside the buildings are an entirely different story for countless reasons.

We all get it and it has nothing to do with black boxes.

You think there is some sort of entity controlling everything in the world and anytime there is a discrepancy of publc proportions, you try your best to turn it into the crime of the century.

We all get it. We just don't care.

For example...

I imagine that 100% of all inhabitants of the WTC complex who died that day had, on their person, some sort of button or snap, or zipper. I have never seen one brought into public for examination, never one preserved or the 9/11 Commission talk about it. I smell a cover up.

Thats how you sound.

 

[usda select]

Black box data can be used help determine the mechanical status of the aircraft. It also can provide info on what the cockpit crew were saying. since, imo, the planes were dilbrately flown into the buildings, Data from the boxes is a mute point and adds little to the investigation results. So what do you think the boxes would reviel that is not already known?

A classic "distinction without a difference" scenario; point out that an "I" isn't dotted until the cows come home and swear it matters.

 

[Whovian]

Maybe none of you get it. The black box is designed to survive in much higher temperatures than it likely reached in the WTC for at least an hour. Sometimes the data inside is destroyed, but the specific cases you mention all include them having been found even if they were just hunks of metal. In most of those cases there is at least some retrievable data on one of them. One notable case where the black boxes were not found is that Air France flight that crashed in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, which is hardly a basis for establishing the plausibility in this case.

As far as the passport, I am not challenging the notion that it could have survived and been found, but rather the notion that somehow this is not the case with the black boxes that are actually designed to survive such conditions. Also, regular papers inside the buildings are an entirely different story for countless reasons.

You are quite obviously the one who doesn't 'get it'... and I fear you never will.

The black boxes are designed and tested to withstand certain individual extremes... not ALL EXTREMES AT THE SAME TIME!

And please, do us all a favor and drop the 'my sources are better than yours' act... it's pathetic.

 

[Demon of Light]

We all get it and it has nothing to do with black boxes.

Actually it does have to do with black boxes.

You think there is some sort of entity controlling everything in the world and anytime there is a discrepancy of publc proportions, you try your best to turn it into the crime of the century.

I was skeptical of the claims for a while and only certain things like this caused me to suspect anything else was afoot. Mind you, I am open to all sorts of possible explanations, but without question we are not being given the whole story.

For example...



Thats how you sound.

You are comparing apples and oranges. If a button or zipper could provide damning evidence one way or the other and it was likely that they would survive and be found that might mean something.

You are quite obviously the one who doesn't 'get it'... and I fear you never will.

The black boxes are designed and tested to withstand certain individual extremes... not ALL EXTREMES AT THE SAME TIME!

They are definitely designed to survive all of those extremes. They are not going to build these thinking they will not be subjected to serious pressure and serious heat at the same time. Your "rationalizations" are becoming increasingly irrational.

And please, do us all a favor and drop the 'my sources are better than yours' act... it's pathetic.

Your source was inaccurate and that is undoubtedly due to it being a less reliable source. I am sure "skeptics" feel quite embarrassed when raving mad lunatics like me provide more reliable sources that contradict their own so I understand your frustration.

 

[505]

They are definitely designed to survive all of those extremes. They are not going to build these thinking they will not be subjected to serious pressure and serious heat at the same time. Your "rationalizations" are becoming increasingly irrational.

What? If the box was caught up in the building during the crash, it was destroyed. Plain and simple. Firefighters MEASURED something like 8 floors compacted into 12 feet at one point. Go find a black box in there.

Once again another truther has no idea of the forces involved in the tower collapses. Congratulations.

Also, the passport was found outside of the collapse zone. If the black boxes had managed to miss any major supports and were ejected outside of the collapse zone, they would have been found too. Other things that were onboard the planes were found outside of the collapse zone too... but truth camp doesn't like to talk about those. Yup, how about the bone fragments of passengers that were CONFIRMED to be on those planes?... On the buildings down range from the crash trajectory?

Explain that one away truth camp.

 

[usda select]

You are comparing apples and oranges. If a button or zipper could provide damning evidence one way or the other and it was likely that they would survive and be found that might mean something.

The gist is that if it wasn't the black boxes; it would be something else.

If it wasn't something else, it would be still another thing.

Whatever fits into the psychoses.

 

[I_Gaze_At_The_Blue]

Maybe none of you get it. The black box is designed to survive in much higher temperatures than it likely reached in the WTC for at least an hour.
Sometimes the data inside is destroyed, but the specific cases you mention all include them having been found even if they were just hunks of metal.
In most of those cases there is at least some retrievable data on one of them. One notable case where the black boxes were not found is that Air France flight that crashed in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, which is hardly a basis for establishing the plausibility in this case.

Oh! but we do "get it" Demon, whilst it is perfectly plausible and likely that the black boxes survived the impact and fire ... they most likely did not survive getting tangled up in such a huge collapse as well.

Have you ever looked at the energy potentials for them ... they far exceed anything the boxes were designed to withstand.

This is where common sense comes into play ... those boxes could well survive each of those things in isolation, but not together ... you have to look at damage as more than one-dimentionally.

By having combined stresses put on them it adds up overall.

It was impact damage at higher velocities than usual, PLUS a bigger fuel fire than usual, PLUS a raging inferno (and don't forget that a combination of fuel sources will always burn hotter than in isolation), PLUS a collapse involving forces in at least hundreds of thousands of tons range !!!

but rather the notion that somehow this is not the case with the black boxes that are actually designed to survive such conditions.

Are you really asserting that the conditions of 9/11, which were unique in the annals of history, was what black boxes are "designed" to withstand ???

Are you really saying that black boxes are "designed" to survive in collapses of buildings weighing in excess of 500,000 tons ???

Have you any idea of the grinding, crushing, tearing, ripping, twisting forces going on in such huge buildings coming down ... by whatever means ???

Why do you think the boxes should have stood up to such grinding, crushing, tearing, ripping, twisting ???

Here is what hundreds of thousands of tons of pressure can do to steel column beams 14 inches in diameter, capable of withstanding (in daily compressive usage) up to 100,000 pounds per square inch ... the steel casing of black boxes is no more than one and a half inches ... do you really expect them to survive such immense forces then ... on top of "normal" aircrash damage ???

ASTM A36 / A36M -08 Standard Specification for Carbon Structural Steel

 

[I_Gaze_At_The_Blue]

Mind you, I am open to all sorts of possible explanations, but without question we are not being given the whole story.

Does that automatically mean someone is therefore guilty of causing something ... during rape trials you never get the "whole story" either, does that mean the woman caused her rape ???

During trials involving children, certain information is withheld, does that mean then, those children were the authors of their horrors ???

Just because you do not know everything about a topic does not mean another scenario is at play ... that is simplistic one-dimentional thinking.

Yes, the gubmint have not told the whole story ... of their gross incompetance and ineptitude ... but covering up mistakes AFTER is not an indication of you causing the fact beforehand !!!

Just because they have swept under the carpet their failings to prevent 9/11 is not indicative of them causing it ... why can you not see this, that your personal incredulity is NOT enough, for these kinds of things you need hard evidence, not just speculation and possibility ???

You are comparing apples and oranges. If a button or zipper could provide damning evidence one way or the other and it was likely that they would survive and be found that might mean something.

Every single fragment of debris from Ground Zero was taken to Fresh Kills on Staten Island where it was subjected to a FINGERTIP search ... nothing incriminating, regarding explosives, thermite or anything else was ever found.

America Rebuilds: A Year at Ground Zero . Artifacts | PBS

And thousands of bits of steel and other objects are preserved in a humidity controlled enviroment in Hanger 17 at JFK International ...

At Hangar 17, Pieces of Ground Zero - Interactive Feature - NYTimes.com

They are definitely designed to survive all of those extremes. They are not going to build these thinking they will not be subjected to serious pressure and serious heat at the same time. Your "rationalizations" are becoming increasingly irrational.

So being entangled in falling building debris is part of the specifications of black boxes ... please point out to this part of their capabilities then ... must be somewhere ???

Sorry Demon, but it appears more your "rationalizations" at fault if you think the forces at play during the collapses of two of the tallest buildings in the world is comparable to those of an aircrash !!!

Your source was inaccurate and that is undoubtedly due to it being a less reliable source. I am sure "skeptics" feel quite embarrassed when raving mad lunatics like me provide more reliable sources that contradict their own so I understand your frustration.

Bollocks Demons ... as both sources say EXACTLY the same thing ...

Yours ...

"Researchers shoot the CSMU down an air cannon"

Whovians ...

"Black boxes are shot from cannons"

~~~~

Yours ...

"researchers drop a 500-pound (227-kg) weight with a 0.25-inch steel pin protruding from the bottom onto the CSMU from a height of 10 feet (3 m) ."

Whovians ...

"stabbed by thin steel rods, attached to 500 lb (227 kg) weights and dropped from 10 ft (3 m) above the ground"

~~~~

Yours ...

"researchers apply 5,000 pounds per square-inch (psi) of crush force to each of the unit's six major axis points"

(Now I know this was your sticking point but the psi rating does not cover the whole box ... just some points, so you were being needlessly and overly pedantic)

Whovians ...

"crushed in a vice at 5,000 lb (2,270 kg) of pressure"

~~~~

Yours ...

"unit sits inside the fire at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit (1,100 C) for one hour"

Whovians ...

"cooked with a blow torch for an hour at 2,012°F (1,100°C)"

~~~~

Yours ...

"CSMU must survive in a salt water tank for 30 days"

Whovians ...

"submerged under the equivalent of 20,000 ft (6,000 m) of seawater for one month"

~~~

But if you think that the forces at play during the Towers collapse were in the order of what those boxes are designed for, you are being extremely naive ... somehow I think the falling debris generated MORE energy than 3,400 times the boxes weight ... and MORE than 500 pounds of penetration pressure ... and MORE than 5,000lb crush pressure !!!

According to various suppliers of this type of equipment the weights of FDR's and
CVR's is a maximum of 20lbs ... do the maths and see if 3,400 times this is less/more or the same as what the Tower collapses generated ...

Avionics Sales CVR FDR Aviation Equipment

http://www.l-3ar.com/PDF_Files/MKT051_FA2100FDR.pdf

http://www.l-3ar.com/PDF_Files/MKT047_FA2100CVDR.pdf

So both sources quote the same standardized tests ... the only difference was in descriptive language (which doesn't count) ... your desperation for however pyrrhic a small victory is palpable !!!

 

[Demon of Light]

It seems all of you have some very mistaken impressions of this situation. Assuming every last black box was in the towers during the collapse, something that is probably not true since the black boxes are in the back of the plane and each of the twin towers had holes puncture all the way to other end. It seems reasonable that at least one or two of the black boxes would have not been in the twin towers.

Also pointing out the total weight of each of the twin towers is just plain deception. The entire building did not drop on the black boxs. Also, when one considers the distribution of weight you would have to conclude that all of the black boxes were right under the columns because otherwise the amount of pressure applied would likely be well below what the black box can endure.

In order for them not to find the black boxes these would not just have to be seriously damaged but pulverized something that has never happened in any crash under any circumstances. The data may be destroyed, but the black box itself will still be in tact.

Yes, the gubmint have not told the whole story ... of their gross incompetance and ineptitude ... but covering up mistakes AFTER is not an indication of you causing the fact beforehand !!!

First of all, it is nice to see that you concede a coverup and therefore a conspiracy concerning 9-11. That much is progress. Of course, if it was really "incompetence" it would have to be a level of incompetence as to constitute criminal negligence. Even with your rosy outlook there are still many people in government who should have gone to prison for these attacks.

However, the black boxes would not in any way prove incompetence or ineptitude. Also, there are several things suggestive of far more than mere incompetence.

 

[OscarB63]

Disturbing fact #251:

despite the complete and total lack of any real evidence, the truthers still insist that this was an inside job.

 

[Whovian]

You are quite obviously the one who doesn't 'get it'... and I fear you never will.

The black boxes are designed and tested to withstand certain individual extremes... not ALL EXTREMES AT THE SAME TIME!

They are definitely designed to survive all of those extremes. They are not going to build these thinking they will not be subjected to serious pressure and serious heat at the same time. Your "rationalizations" are becoming increasingly irrational.

They are most certainly NOT designed to survive all those extremes at the same time. I'd suggest you check with several manufacturers, but when they tell you their products are not designed to withstand all those conditions at the same time, you'll likely just conclude they must be hiding something or that the government is shutting them up or some such nonsense.

 

[Demon of Light]

They are most certainly NOT designed to survive all those extremes at the same time. I'd suggest you check with several manufacturers, but when they tell you their products are not designed to withstand all those conditions at the same time, you'll likely just conclude they must be hiding something or that the government is shutting them up or some such nonsense.

If they are not they must be real idiots to presume that there will not be intense fires and extreme impact damage at the same time in a plane crash.

 

[Whovian]

It seems all of you have some very mistaken impressions of this situation. Assuming every last black box was in the towers during the collapse, something that is probably not true since the black boxes are in the back of the plane and each of the twin towers had holes puncture all the way to other end. It seems reasonable that at least one or two of the black boxes would have not been in the twin towers.

Also pointing out the total weight of each of the twin towers is just plain deception. The entire building did not drop on the black boxs. Also, when one considers the distribution of weight you would have to conclude that all of the black boxes were right under the columns because otherwise the amount of pressure applied would likely be well below what the black box can endure.

In order for them not to find the black boxes these would not just have to be seriously damaged but pulverized something that has never happened in any crash under any circumstances. The data may be destroyed, but the black box itself will still be in tact.

Once again, you prove beyond any reasonable doubt that you haven't got the slightest clue what you're talking about.

'Why' does that seem reasonable to you, but the idea of an object that is NOT completely indestructable getting completely destroyed is beyond your cognative abilities?

The black boxes are designed to withstand 'thousands' of pounds... not 'millions'...

The weight of structural steel used in each Tower is generally reported to be 96,000,000 kg and the weight of concrete is said to be 48,000,000 kg per Tower. I have also seen the weight of aluminum cladding reported to be 2,000,000 kg, and the weight of wallboard quoted at 8,000,000 kg per Tower, giving a total weight of structural materials of 154,000,000 kg per Tower.

 

[Whovian]

If they are not they must be real idiots to presume that there will not be intense fires and extreme impact damage at the same time in a plane crash.

Again... go check with a few black box manufacturers... then slink back and tell us what they say. We won't say 'we told you so'... promise.

 

[usda select]

Again... go check with a few black box manufacturers... then slink back and tell us what they say. We won't say 'we told you so'... promise.

He won't, of course. The bottom line is that it makes so precious little difference what, if anything, were on any black boxes found at Ground Zero. Personally--we're on post 44 now--I think it is suspect from the get-go; Here is the quote:

Two men who worked extensively in the wreckage of the World Trade Center claim they helped federal agents find three of the four "black boxes" from the jetliners that struck the towers on 9/11 - contradicting the official account.

Its strange verbiage to say the least. Also the boxes are small enough to be carried by a teenage girl so how exactly did they "help"? I didn't bring it up until now because the entire topic is so asinine. Air traffic controllers heard Atta's voice from the cockpit. So we know he was in control of the plane. We saw it hit the tower. WE saw UAL 175 hit the South tower.

This is truther-dom at it's most disgraceful worst; find something like this that has zero implications on any of the basic facts and shout about it 9 years after. I think there is a special place in hell for people like this. If there isn't; there should be.

 

[Demon of Light]

The black boxes are designed to withstand 'thousands' of pounds... not 'millions'...

Seriously, do you people think there was some sort of giant funnel with the ability to bend space that made every last piece of the towers, even parts well below where the planes hit, fall on these four black boxes?

Its strange verbiage to say the least. Also the boxes are small enough to be carried by a teenage girl so how exactly did they "help"? I didn't bring it up until now because the entire topic is so asinine. Air traffic controllers heard Atta's voice from the cockpit. So we know he was in control of the plane. We saw it hit the tower. WE saw UAL 175 hit the South tower.

It seems some of you think that if you prove one person wrong on this issue that you have proven everyone wrong. Just because a few guys made a piece of **** video years ago rambling about remote-controlled airplanes and cruise missiles that a lot of people believed does not mean their argument is the only one that exists.

Proving Loose Change wrong is not the same as proving everyone's doubts to be unfounded.

 

[creativedreams]

New York Firefighter Nicholas DeMasi witnessed the finding of three of the black boxes at ground zero and claims there is a cover-up. Who would you believe first...a firefighter at the scene or a federal agent of the most sneaky and secretive country in the world????



Philadelphia Daily News | 10/28/2004 | 2 say they found 9/11 'black boxes'

The sheeple won't acknowledge what is everywhere in the news....this is just one small sample....

 

[usda select]

Seriously, do you people think there was some sort of giant funnel with the ability to bend space that made every last piece of the towers, even parts well below where the planes hit, fall on these four black boxes?



It seems some of you think that if you prove one person wrong on this issue that you have proven everyone wrong. Just because a few guys made a piece of **** video years ago rambling about remote-controlled airplanes and cruise missiles that a lot of people believed does not mean their argument is the only one that exists.

Proving Loose Change wrong is not the same as proving everyone's doubts to be unfounded.

I wasn't even aware I was addressing Loose Change or anything brought up in the movie. That is how easy it was to debunk.

The only difference between them and you is that they took some sort of timid stand, at least, and was easily dismissed. The reason you won't is because you know the same fate awaits you. So after nine tractionless years of innuendo; you guys are still at square one and are a world wide punchline.

Again, the black boxes are just this week's rendition of WTC7. They/it have nothing to do with 9/11 and are simply detail to the main event.

 

[I_Gaze_At_The_Blue]

If they are not they must be real idiots to presume that there will not be intense fires and extreme impact damage at the same time in a plane crash.

I find it endlessly funny that people considered REAL experts in this kind of thing, you know, like REAL aircrash investigatores, are not the ones claiming this.

These REAL experts seem to have no problem accepting the fact that the conditions of 9/11 were above and beyond what black boxes are capable of withstanding.

No ... this sort of questioning of technical matters like this is the sole preserve of incredulous, rank NON-experts on the internet.

Here contact a few agencies whom are recognized as competent and expert in aircrashes ... see if they agree with you ... or more likely point and laugh at you ???

NTSB - Aviation

Air Accidents Investigation: Home

Air Accident Investigation Unit

BFU Bundesstelle für Flugunfalluntersuchung BFU - Homepage

Bureau d'Enquêtes et d'Analyses (BEA) - English Homepage

ANSV - Agenzia Nazionale per la Sicurezza del Volo

CIAIAC - CIAIAC - Collegiate Body - Ministerio de Fomento

PPRuNe Forums - Professional Pilots Rumour Network

Airline Pilot Central Forums

Not that you will ever test your understanding this way, for deep, deep, deep down inside of yourself you know you are wrong ... I have never yet met a twoof willing to test their incredulity against REAL experts ... moral and intellectual cowardice ensures they will never do something as real world as this ... preferring instead the self-seeking, self-congratularory ego preening they get whining on the net and pretending they are great warriors engaged in some "noble" quest !!!

Whereas reality shows them more to be some Don Quixote de la Mancha tilting at windmills ...

 

[I_Gaze_At_The_Blue]

Proving Loose Change wrong is not the same as proving everyone's doubts to be unfounded.

Incredulity again !!!

You see Demon proving Loose Change wrong DOES count ... for how many of you (truthers) fell for what were such OBVIOUS falsehoods, how many of you FELL for the claims of "hermetically sealed elevator shafts" and the "pod" ... loudly and proudly proclaiming it all as true, telling us we were ignorant sheeple for not seeing LC's truths ???

How often was Loose Change touted as "the" film that was gonna wake everyone up, start the revolution and change everything ... how often were skeptics, like me, told we were blinded by faith of the "official" story ... when some mind-bogglingly, childishly, simple understandings of science clearly demonstrated the lunacy of those claims.

And yet we were constantly told that "we" were the gullible ones !!!

When simple reality gets shown to you that the whole idea of a "hemetically sealed elevator shaft" was moronic then it should give you pause for thought in that is it truly "possible" for some drop-out teenage boys to have worked it all out.

Now I understand that its thumping soundtrack and cool graphics gave it an edginess that for some might be compelling, but honestly, how anyone past their teenage years could find anything of merit in it is beyond comprehension.

Now I did not deny Loose Changes claims because I just sheepishly believed the gubmint, but rather because I have had the benefit of an education and career in a scientific field ... it was GLARINGLY obvious that those KIDS had no idea what they were talking about.

So that education in science, as well as genuine skeptism, prevented me from watching a movie full of (even just at first glance alone) dozens of factual errors and jump right on up shouting "Holy Fecal Matter ...teh gubmint gone dun it !!!"

So Loose Change does count in that it demonstrates that those whom were gullible enough to buy into it clearly were somewhat lacking in some critical, evaluation and analytical skills ... and it demonstrates also a shocking level of gullibility of truthers to so easily fall for what was glaringly ... nonsense.

That is not any insult for anyone stupid enough to fall for some teenage boy non-entities mocumentory fully deserve the sobriquets of idiocy they recieve !!!

It shows that the kind of people whom were willing, and frighteningly so, to "defend" what to truly rational people was a complete hoax are also not au fait enough with science and reason as to be worth of investigating any further claims ???

http://s1.zetaboards.com/LooseChangeForums/single/?p=188214&t=165192

And most truthers, even when shown what a crock of pish Loose Change was still keep to twoofie claims ... they therefore STILL have not the necessary skills in analytical and critical analysis to evaluate ANY technical subject to ANY level of competency.

At the end of the day it shows how gullible and deluded some people are, and those that fell for this have shown they are not competent enough to know what they see or are talking about ... it counted for it demonstrated the naivity and gulliblility of truthers !!!

 

[Whovian]

Seriously, do you people think there was some sort of giant funnel with the ability to bend space that made every last piece of the towers, even parts well below where the planes hit, fall on these four black boxes?

Did I say 'every last piece of the towers, even parts well below where the planes hit, fell on these four black boxes'? No, I did not. You're reading something into it that isn't there, to no ones real surprise. The fact that you're arguing something I did not say or imply says a lot about you and your beliefs in this matter.

Even if you take the weight of just what was above the planes, and consider a small fraction of said weight, it is well beyond 'thousands of pounds'.

Have you contacted any flight recorder manufacturers to ask if their product could withstand all the individual tests they put them through... all at one time?

What's that? No? It would go against your predetermined opinions and make you look foolish? Well, yes.. I guess it would. I can see why you would not want anyone here to think you... 'foolish'.