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2014 Deficit estimate down to 514 billion

MTAtech said:
What you are discussing is income mobility. In the U.S., income mobility is among the lowest of developed nations.
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I have heard that but it makes no sense to me. Were Buffet, Gates, Zuckerberg, Bezos, Chambers etc born into the .1 of 1%??? Not sure what quintile your grandparents were born into and where you are, if you are in the workforce yet.
 
MTAtech said:
Except that half of the capital stock is owned by the top 1% and half of that is owned by the top 0.1%. The bottom 99% have the other half, and I bet the bottom 50% don't have any.
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Those numbers are guesses and are irrational.
 
washunut said:
I have heard that but it makes no sense to me. Were Buffet, Gates, Zuckerberg, Bezos, Chambers etc born into the .1 of 1%??? Not sure what quintile your grandparents were born into and where you are, if you are in the workforce yet.
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It's not a matter of whether one or two people move upwards or downwards. It's the matter of how many move up or down. In the U.S. not many move up or down between boundaries and many times they just cross the border. So, someone who earns $975,000 a year moves the next year into the millionaire's bucket and someone in the millionaire's bucket has a bad year and moves down to $950,000.

Gates' parents were well-off, by the way.
 
MTAtech said:
Except that half of the capital stock is owned by the top 1% and half of that is owned by the top 0.1%. The bottom 99% have the other half, and I bet the bottom 50% don't have any.
fmw said:
Those numbers are guesses and are irrational.
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My numbers are verifiable. Just because you don't like the numbers doesn't make them wrong.

Oh, I did make a mistake. I said 50% of capital gains goes to the 1%. I was wrong, it's really the 0.1%, acording to that left-wing rag, Forbes:

Forbes: The Top 0.1% Of The Nation Earn Half Of All Capital Gains

Income and wealth disparities become even more absurd if we look at the top 0.1% of the nation’s earners– rather than the more common 1%. The top 0.1%– about 315,000 individuals out of 315 million– are making about half of all capital gains on the sale of shares or property after 1 year; and these capital gains make up 60% of the income made by the Forbes 400.
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washunut said:
I have heard that but it makes no sense to me. Were Buffet, Gates, Zuckerberg, Bezos, Chambers etc born into the .1 of 1%??? Not sure what quintile your grandparents were born into and where you are, if you are in the workforce yet.
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Most "self made" uber rich people had significant financial advantages before they became uber rich. When you don't have to worry about paying the rent or the power bill, then it becomes much easier to focus on building a great company. Bill Gates parents weren't uber rich, but they were well to do, and financed Microsoft. His mom also was a personal friend of the CEO of IBM and set that whole deal up for him.

Warren Buffets parents were also rich, and hooked him up with his earliest business dealings. You don't really believe that a 8 year old saved enough money from delivering papers on a bicycle to purchase a farm do you?

Donald Trump was a millionare before he graduated college, although he had only worked for his dad. When pops is paying you $10,000 an hour to run errands, it's not that hard to become rich. His dad was also his first business partner, and the Donald never had to use any of his own money to fund his endevors.

The reality is that no one makes it big-time totally on their own merit, they always have a little help.

Most people are so busy just trying to make a living that they don't have the time or energy to make any real money. thats basically my situation.
 
imagep said:
Most "self made" uber rich people had significant financial advantages before they became uber rich. When you don't have to worry about paying the rent or the power bill, then it becomes much easier to focus on building a great company. Bill Gates parents weren't uber rich, but they were well to do, and financed Microsoft. His mom also was a personal friend of the CEO of IBM and set that whole deal up for him.

Warren Buffets parents were also rich, and hooked him up with his earliest business dealings. You don't really believe that a 8 year old saved enough money from delivering papers on a bicycle to purchase a farm do you?

Donald Trump was a millionare before he graduated college, although he had only worked for his dad. When pops is paying you $10,000 an hour to run errands, it's not that hard to become rich. His dad was also his first business partner, and the Donald never had to use any of his own money to fund his endevors.

The reality is that no one makes it big-time totally on their own merit, they always have a little help.

Most people are so busy just trying to make a living that they don't have the time or energy to make any real money. thats basically my situation.
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Pretty sad commentary that so many have bought into the Obama line that folks don't do it on their own. Yes Buffet's parents has some some, but what has that got to do with the fact he is acclaimed as the best investor of his generation. Assume we put you where he was financially 30 years ago ( or me or anyone else) what are the chances of building Berkshire the way he has. The guy who just sold his company for $19 billion was an immigrant whose family was on food stamps.

On a less dramatic note, most of the people I grew up with come from first generation Americans. For the most part discriminated against at most major companies, many started their own business or were tradespeople. A number of their kids made it to college and the middle class or somewhat above. That is the greatness of America.

I am reminded of a time I was in a global management meeting. As a get to know you type of thing, we all had to do a little personal timeline from birth to the meeting. It was fascinating to see how many of my European counterparts came from well to do families, and most of the Americans in the room came from lower middle class backgrounds.

I had to see the defeatism I see in posts such as yours, where folks have been taught you can't move up the ladder of success so we need to the government to drag down the fortunate few.
 
washunut said:
Pretty sad commentary that so many have bought into the Obama line that folks don't do it on their own. Yes Buffet's parents has some some, but what has that got to do with the fact he is acclaimed as the best investor of his generation. Assume we put you where he was financially 30 years ago ( or me or anyone else) what are the chances of building Berkshire the way he has. The guy who just sold his company for $19 billion was an immigrant whose family was on food stamps.

On a less dramatic note, most of the people I grew up with come from first generation Americans. For the most part discriminated against at most major companies, many started their own business or were tradespeople. A number of their kids made it to college and the middle class or somewhat above. That is the greatness of America.

I am reminded of a time I was in a global management meeting. As a get to know you type of thing, we all had to do a little personal timeline from birth to the meeting. It was fascinating to see how many of my European counterparts came from well to do families, and most of the Americans in the room came from lower middle class backgrounds.

I had to see the defeatism I see in posts such as yours, where folks have been taught you can't move up the ladder of success so we need to the government to drag down the fortunate few.
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There is nothing "defeatist" in what I said, it is all factual. You act as if I suggested that it is impossible for someone to climb the economic ladder. I simply pointed out the reality that the uber rich rarely become uber rich on their own.

Maybe if you want to make the point that it is possible to become uber rich without having any help, then maybe you shouldn't use examples of people who did have significant examples. Know of any?

And why are you comparing some random people at a meeting with the uber rich?

Twenty five years ago I started a business from scratch, and with no financial resources, and I have supported my family very nicely, so believe me, I do not advocate defeatism, just reality.
 
washunut said:
Pretty sad commentary that so many have bought into the Obama line that folks don't do it on their own. Yes Buffet's parents has some some, but what has that got to do with the fact he is acclaimed as the best investor of his generation. Assume we put you where he was financially 30 years ago ( or me or anyone else) what are the chances of building Berkshire the way he has. The guy who just sold his company for $19 billion was an immigrant whose family was on food stamps.

On a less dramatic note, most of the people I grew up with come from first generation Americans. For the most part discriminated against at most major companies, many started their own business or were tradespeople. A number of their kids made it to college and the middle class or somewhat above. That is the greatness of America.

I am reminded of a time I was in a global management meeting. As a get to know you type of thing, we all had to do a little personal timeline from birth to the meeting. It was fascinating to see how many of my European counterparts came from well to do families, and most of the Americans in the room came from lower middle class backgrounds.

I had to see the defeatism I see in posts such as yours, where folks have been taught you can't move up the ladder of success so we need to the government to drag down the fortunate few.
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I thought you might enjoy this. It is extracted from an essay I wrote a couple years ago.

“Happiness lies in the joy of achievement and the thrill of creative effort” – President Franklin D. Roosevelt

Last Sunday our pastor’s sermon included a bullet:

Thoughts -> Attitudes -> Actions-> Habits

He went on to say that we are thinking all of the time. When we come back to a thought many times, when we think something over and over, then we have an attitude – a behavioral trait that is outwardly evident. Persistent attitudes lead to actions. At first our action may be tentative but the more often we repeat the action the more routine it becomes. Then it is a habit – which is something we do subconsciously without recollection of the thought that originated the behavior. Certainly we can see how this progression has led to the breakdown of respect and civility that we see in American politics today.

As I was struck by the simple wisdom in the sermon, I pondered another sequence:

Hardship-> Resolve-> Satisfaction-> Happiness

We all have this sequence in our lives, often more than once. Here is one of mine. ………

Everyone has a different flavor of this story in their life……………

Here is another story. I got it from a book that I lost a long time ago. It was the Great Depression. There was an out-of-work Okie mechanic. He had a little money saved and he thought that he might be able to survive until he could find work. But, as time passed, it seemed like there were fewer opportunities for work. In those days oil wells were drilled by first erecting a fixed structure to hold the drilling machinery. A new structure was built every time a new well was drilled. The Okie mechanic thought that he might be able to build a drilling rig on a truck. Then the truck could be set-up quickly and could be driven from one site to the next. He didn’t have any money, but he didn’t let that stop him. He went to the local Ford dealer and told him about his idea. He asked the Ford dealer to “sell” him a truck which he would pay for if he was successful. The Ford dealer went for it because he really didn’t have anything to lose – nobody was buying trucks anyhow. He made similar deals with scrap dealers. He built the rig and drove out into the Oklahoma oil patch, where he showed it. He planned to ask a high price assuming that he would have to bargain. To his surprise, he sold the rig at the first demonstration for his asking price. As he returned home, he was contemplating living off his profit until he could find mechanic work. But when he arrived at home his wife greeted him with three orders! He had to hire people to make more rigs.
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The essay title is "Victory Gardens". It is the last chapter in a book titled "The Wind Of Hope". I wrote this book because I am tired of the politics of negativism. True leadership is always positive. We need to stop convincing people that they can't..... and show them that they can....
 
imagep said:
There is nothing "defeatist" in what I said, it is all factual. You act as if I suggested that it is impossible for someone to climb the economic ladder. I simply pointed out the reality that the uber rich rarely become uber rich on their own.

Maybe if you want to make the point that it is possible to become uber rich without having any help, then maybe you shouldn't use examples of people who did have significant examples. Know of any?

And why are you comparing some random people at a meeting with the uber rich?

Twenty five years ago I started a business from scratch, and with no financial resources, and I have supported my family very nicely, so believe me, I do not advocate defeatism, just reality.
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For whatever reason you skipped the person who just became a billionaire selling his app company. He came to the US when he was 16 from the Ukraine and for a while lived on food stamps. He created an app that allowed him to safely talk to relatives and friends overseas. Now he is a billionaire and many of his employees are millionaires.

Not saying that every story is like this, but that it is possible. Also America in my view is the best place for people to thrive. This is the greatness of America.

A separate issue is how these folks should be taxed or whatever but to say that you can only achieve by riding your daddy's coattails like a Donald Trump, is simply not true.
 
washunut said:
For whatever reason you skipped the person who just became a billionaire selling his app company. He came to the US when he was 16 from the Ukraine and for a while lived on food stamps. He created an app that allowed him to safely talk to relatives and friends overseas. Now he is a billionaire and many of his employees are millionaires.

Not saying that every story is like this, but that it is possible. Also America in my view is the best place for people to thrive. This is the greatness of America.

A separate issue is how these folks should be taxed or whatever but to say that you can only achieve by riding your daddy's coattails like a Donald Trump, is simply not true.
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You just made a good argument for welfare. Are you a socialist?
 
washunut said:
For whatever reason you skipped the person who just became a billionaire selling his app company. He came to the US when he was 16 from the Ukraine and for a while lived on food stamps. He created an app that allowed him to safely talk to relatives and friends overseas. Now he is a billionaire and many of his employees are millionaires.

Not saying that every story is like this, but that it is possible. Also America in my view is the best place for people to thrive. This is the greatness of America.

A separate issue is how these folks should be taxed or whatever but to say that you can only achieve by riding your daddy's coattails like a Donald Trump, is simply not true.
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Good thing we had that social safety net to keep him alive so he could program instead of panhandle.
 
MTAtech said:
Good thing we had that social safety net to keep him alive so he could program instead of panhandle.
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I am a strong believer in a strong social safety net.
 
washunut said:
I am a strong believer in a strong social safety net.
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The government can't create prosperity by sucking from the middle class to feed unproductive pets. You shills for the socialist party are disgusting to tax payers like myself.
 
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imagep said:
The government can't create prosperity by sucking from the middle class to feed unproductive pets. You shills for the socialist party are disgusting to tax payers like myself.
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Pretty confident I have paid more taxes than you by orders of magnitude.
 
DA60 said:
Pretty confident few much care.

Bragging on chat forums is for the weak.
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Was not to brag but to show that I am not some parasite living off government as was inferred.

Bragging is weak, butting in without knowledge of what you speak is weaker yet.
 
I accept that you may pay a lot in taxes, but you are still a shill for the socialist party.
 
imagep said:
I accept that you may pay a lot in taxes, but you are still a shill for the socialist party.
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Really think you are going off the deep end with these personal insults. Not even sure what you are driving at. But then again could care less.
 
fmw said:
Those numbers are guesses and are irrational.
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No, the numbers are pretty much spot on.... that said, I do agree with you that wealth distribution in America, since about 1981 anyway, is irrational; that is if we are interested in an healthy economy and the continued viability of the United States of America...

Who Rules America: Wealth, Income, and Power

OTH, if we are trying to emulate the Mexican financial model, things are going well...

http://www.gfmag.com/tools/global-d...ribution-income-inequality.html#axzz2uTh5KQyT
http://www.theatlantic.com/internat...anks-near-bottom-on-income-inequality/245315/
 
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bubbabgone said:
We're talking about health insurance companies who were promised to be compensated if they couldn't recover their expenses through Obamacare enrollments should they not be sufficient.
They needed to be brought on board for this Ponzi scheme and that was how the Admin did it.
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If you require that health care in the U.S. has to be done with private insurance companies, that's what you need to do -- immunize potential loses.

I prefer a the government replace private insurance companies, just like we do for Medicare and Medicaid. Health insurance should be built into the tax-structure, just like the rest of the modern world.
 
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