20,000 Muslims Attack a Church in Cairo

[UtahBill]

Sorry Bill but I'm Jewish.

You're the one who wrote that "Don't tell me that the majority of Islam is peaceful"
That is where I disagree with you and why I think you have a bias against Muslims.

As a Jew it would be easy for me to hate Muslims but I cannot intellectually hate that way. Sure there are tens of millions or more Muslims who want to slit my throat and destroy me and my family BUT that does not mean that the "majority" as you put it feel that way. You wrote that more than 600 million Muslims want me dead and I consider that a wrong conclusion.

Can you provide more than your personal dislike for most things Muslim to back up your 600+ billion claim?

the bolded part is an incomplete quote from my post, so you are intellectually dishonest...
the italicized part belies your earlier posts about it being a small part of Islam who are radicals. TENS OF MILLIONS???? that is no small number, even if still not a majority.
The underlined parts I never said, YOU say it...but attribute it to me, more "intellectual" dishonesty.
But I am impressed that a Jew can be so generous toward a group that wants to wipe Israel off the map....Do your Jewish friends feel the same? or do you stand alone?
as for my dislike of most things muslim, what does that mean? that I don't like mutton? I wouldn't know muslim culture as well as you do, but I do see muslim terrorism in the news a lot. Must be that damn liberal media in action.:shock:

 

[Family Guy]

Nobody has said that the majority of Islam is NOT peace loving, we all want peace, but much of Islam wants it only on their terms, and much of the rest are complicent by their silence on the violence matter.

Ahhh, but you did say that the majority of Islam is not peace loving in this post in this thread:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...ms-attack-church-cairo-12.html#post1057829549

Don't tell me that the majority of Islam is peaceful

You wrote those words so why are you now denying that you wrote them?

 

[UtahBill]

Ahhh, but you did say that the majority of Islam is not peace loving in this post in this thread:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/break...ms-attack-church-cairo-12.html#post1057829549


You wrote those words so why are you now denying that you wrote them?

again, an incomplete quote, is there no end to your dishonesty? Perhaps I should start chopping up your posts? Here is the complete sentence...
Don't tell me that the majority of Islam is peaceful when some of their own leaders encourage the attacks on other religions, and the rest of the leaders sit on their hands and issue little apologies
As for peace LOVING, we are all peace LOVING, but again, if you want it on your terms only, that is not gonna cut it. If you want freedom for YOUR religion only, that is not peace loving. There is a difference between peace LOVING and peaceful.
People who are as intolerant and bigoted as the thousands who surrounded the christian church should stay home. People here in the USA are far more tolerant of muslims in the USA than many of the muslim world are tolerant of non-muslim everywhere.

 

[Family Guy]

You can libr-o-spin it any way you want.

Nothing has changed. Your arguments sound against action against terrorists and their sympathizers.

This says to me that you much prefer terrorists to your own countryman.

DO NOT try to pass off your liberal bull**** off on me. I call it like I see it.

If you sound off and say you do not like America's stance on terrorism, you are really saying you do not like America.

If we are to stand united against the terrorist hordes, WE MUST BE UNITED. You babbling bull****, much like that of some other people on this board, and those liberals in congress, is the reason Islamic terrorists still screw with America.

If terrorist knew that attacking Americans or their allies was an instant death sentence, THEY WOULD STOP DOING IT.

By standing out against swift punishment for terrorism you are feeding the terrorists with hope. This is A HUGE TACTICAL ERROR AND YOU NEED TO STOP DOING IT.

If you cannot support your country, you shouldn't be talking.

My signature in this Forum says exactly what I believe and apparently what you believe.

The world has never hated America as much as it has over the past 8 years that Bush and his believers (of which you seem to be one) employed the very same cowboy, macho mentality that this post you just wrote espouses.

I disagree with everything you wrote. I do not believe that using violence as my one and only diplomatic weapon is the way to go.

I also believe that America is better than radical Islam and that we can defeat them without using their tactics which to me seem to be the very same tactics that you're promoting or at least that is how I read your posts.

 

[UtahBill]

I also believe that America is better than radical Islam and that we can defeat them without using their tactics which to me seem to be the very same tactics that you're promoting or at least that is how I read your posts.

So you really think we can defeat them without violence?
HOW? Please tell us....
Give us the benefit of your vast knowledge of Arab/Islamic culture so we can appease OBL and his band of merry men.....
This isn't just a holy war, it is also a power struggle for oil riches that are not being shared even remotely fairly, and for ideologies that we westerners have no chance of understanding.
Or perhaps you understand their ideology?
If so, again, please share with us your superior intellect. I will personally forward it for you to Obama and Bush. I am sure they are eagerly awaiting your input....

 

[Family Guy]

again, an incomplete quote, is there no end to your dishonesty? Perhaps I should start chopping up your posts? Here is the complete sentence...
Don't tell me that the majority of Islam is peaceful when some of their own leaders encourage the attacks on other religions, and the rest of the leaders sit on their hands and issue little apologies

I do not see the difference Bill. You clearly wrote that you do not believe that the MAJORITY of Islam is not peaceful = 600+ Billion not peaceful Muslims. You appear to be lumping those 600+ Billion Muslims into the pockets of "their own leaders". Who, specifically are these "own leaders" that you're referring to and how is that they speak for 600+ Billion people?

For example how wrong would it be for a Muslim to lump me together with Bush's horrible policies claiming that the majority of Americans are defined by Bush?

People here in the USA are far more tolerant of muslims in the USA than many of the muslim world are tolerant of non-muslim everywhere.

What does that mean? Is it necessary to your happiness to boost your ego this way? Is it a measure of one's insecurity to try to make oneself feel superior?

 

[Family Guy]

So you really think we can defeat them without violence?
HOW? Please tell us....
Give us the benefit of your vast knowledge of Arab/Islamic culture so we can appease OBL and his band of merry men.....
This isn't just a holy war, it is also a power struggle for oil riches that are not being shared even remotely fairly, and for ideologies that we westerners have no chance of understanding.
Or perhaps you understand their ideology?
If so, again, please share with us your superior intellect. I will personally forward it for you to Obama and Bush. I am sure they are eagerly awaiting your input....

I didn't say without force. I said we can defeat them without ONLY USING force. Is it right for me to believe that your method of defeating them is to use force first and only force will win out?

I again refer you to my signature in this Forum to discern what I believe.

 

[UtahBill]

For example how wrong would it be for a Muslim to lump me together with Bush's horrible policies claiming that the majority of Americans are defined by Bush?

What does that mean? Is it necessary to your happiness to boost your ego this way? Is it a measure of one's insecurity to try to make oneself feel superior?

That ship has sailed, my friend, but I know how to fix it....:2razz:
Get yourself captured by radical Islam, and try to convince them that you, a jew, do not agree with Bush's policies. Like you said, they will slit your throat. Like it or not, we have been defined by Bush and Cheney and some of his other cronies...
The rest of your post makes no sense, none at all. You must be tired, after all it is late in NY, and I trust you have to get up and go to work in the morning. I don't have to get up early, I am retired, and it is only 8:22 PM here.:lol:

 

[Vader]

My signature in this Forum says exactly what I believe and apparently what you believe.

The world has never hated America as much as it has over the past 8 years that Bush and his believers (of which you seem to be one) employed the very same cowboy, macho mentality that this post you just wrote espouses.

I disagree with everything you wrote. I do not believe that using violence as my one and only diplomatic weapon is the way to go.

I also believe that America is better than radical Islam and that we can defeat them without using their tactics which to me seem to be the very same tactics that you're promoting or at least that is how I read your posts.

You can ask anybody here... I am NOT a Bush supporter.

I do not want to use violence against anybody; however, the militants in Iran, Syria, Palestine, and Lebanon (Hez-douchbagallah) only understand the language of violence.

The way to stop a bully has always been to stand up to him and tell him to piss off. Then punch him in the mouth if he doesn't piss off.

We will not live in fear of some terrorist doucebags because some members of this country cannot see the harm being done by failing to take the proper stance.

If there is a more peaceful solution, I am willing to give it a shot; however, I do not see any such solution.

The terrorist whores must understand that ****ing with America, her allies, or the free world in general, will suffer the boot of the free world up their terrorist asses.

This is unfortunately the only way to deal with these people.

The other path leads them to see us as weak. This cannot be allowed. They must understand that screwing with us is a good as committing suicide.

It keeps them checked and it limits violence because the terrorists are not so willing to **** around.

This is the sad, dispicable, unescapable truth of it all.

Liberals seem to like to ignore this fact. Some disagree with it; but believe me, I have seen **** that would make you sick to your stomach.

It is all they understand.

Then there are the peaceful muslims who support the terrorists out of fear. If we drive the terrorists out, then that support dies off.

This is the way to win this war.

The final step in the war is to catch Ayman Al Swahiri and put him in a prision in a non-islamic country.

Then make sure his meals consist of pork products, bread, and water.

Once the head is cut from the snake... the body of the snake will die.

I hope you can better understand my point.

Peace be to you.

:2wave:

 

[Invayne]

Go back under your bridge, unless you have a real counter argument to make.

I have a question for you. UtahBill said "Until the leaders get together and decide to ban the radical element from Islamism, they are all partly to blame..."

You answered, "Why would they ban it when it gives them power?"

If they like power (and I can guess what kind of power you are talking about), then they like the radical element, which makes them partly to blame. Thank you for clearing that up for us. I've always thought that, but your confirmation is appreciated.:2wave:

 

[Invayne]

You said it yourself, they want power, and the rest of Islam just gets on their knees and lets radical islam do deep throat on them.....
I am done dealing with terrorist apologetics, have a nice life under the lash....:2wave:

Heh, you beat me to it. My sentiments exactly.

 

[Invayne]

Children are targets of Nigerian witch hunt | World news | The Observer


Very evolved :no:

Must be the location. That crap doesn't happen here where people are educated. They're still living in the 1600's.:roll:

 

[UtahBill]

I have a question for you. UtahBill said "Until the leaders get together and decide to ban the radical element from Islamism, they are all partly to blame..."

You answered, "Why would they ban it when it gives them power?"If they like power (and I can guess what kind of power you are talking about), then they like the radical element, which makes them partly to blame. Thank you for clearing that up for us. I've always thought that, but your confirmation is appreciated.:2wave:

no, the bolded part is not me speaking, I was quoting someone else...oops. you were responding to Orius, not me..."never mind"...
but correct in that they do like the power even if they sit back and let others do the dirty work...

 

[Invayne]

Believe me, so am i.
I am forever indebted to my Mom when she stood up to my Dad and told him to **** off when he tried to get that to happen to me

He thinks i won't be able to ever get a husband now im dirty :/

If that's you in your avatar, from what I can see (it's so small!) you'll have no problem.:mrgreen:

 

[Invayne]

No matter how you parse it Bill your posts scream out a hatred for Muslims and I find your posts very disturbing. You lower yourself to the "I have some best friends who are...." generalization only you invert it citing some inane example (aka hearsay) that has no bearing in this debate and has nothing to do with 1.2 billion Muslims.

I cannot accept anyone's opinion as non-biased when they write multiple posts that are filled with hatred towards more than 1 billion people AND you're actually trying to justify your hatred with ridiculous examples.

Sorry Bill but my opinion of your posts in this thread is that you're severely biased against Muslims and that your bias is rooted in hatred. Hating an entire people just for being Muslim, or American, or Jewish or Black is always wrong and always unjustifiable IMHO.

:doh

See why I ignore you?:rofl

 

[Invayne]

I think you're attack on Bill is based on latent support for terrorism.

You say he posts hate-filled threads. I say you support the very acts he is protesting.

Why is it that you attack those who attack terrorists and their retarted ideology?

BINGO! :2wave:

 

[Orion]

You said it yourself, they want power, and the rest of Islam just gets on their knees and lets radical islam do deep throat on them.....
I am done dealing with terrorist apologetics, have a nice life under the lash....:2wave:

Please stop twisting my words to suit your agenda.

My analysis wasn't from the religious angle like yours... I was talking about the power angle. If breeding bunnies was a popular tradition in the Theocratic states, then they would somehow twist that tradition to give them power. They are simply hijacking a tradition that people know in order to mold it into their power structure. It's like how the Catholics used scripture reinforced by words from the Pope to engage in the Crusades, even though we can now all agree that the Crusades were barbaric and had nothing to do with true Christian teachings.

Power is the vehicle, religion is just a facilitator. I am trying my best to explain things rationally because I want you to understand where I'm coming from, but you keep coming back at me with that apologetic BS. Show some moderation like your title stands for. You're not even trying to see the other side.

At the end of the day, the government weilds the power, and the moderates are not in a position to create a revolution, especially with outside forces interfering. Iran had a fully functional liberal and democratic society before the CIA sponsored its overthrow and helped the radicals to implement Shariah law. When the fundamentalists were marching in the streets and slowly rising to power, it was the moderates and the liberals who were out there chanting right back at them. But once the radicals got to power, they had the guns and they had the military.

Please state WHICH countries you are talking about when you refer to radical Islam. The "Islamic world" is not the title of a COUNTRY, it's a philosophical title. Not all countries in the Middle East are lead by radicals. Be more specific or you're just going to come across as a flamer.

 

[Invayne]

Then I KNOW the way I feel about 'em is gonna freak ya out. :shock:

I take the, "Nuke 'em all and let Allah sort 'em out," approach myself.

But that's just me..... :mrgreen:

NOW we're talking!:rofl

 

[Orion]

I have a question for you. UtahBill said "Until the leaders get together and decide to ban the radical element from Islamism, they are all partly to blame..."

You answered, "Why would they ban it when it gives them power?"

If they like power (and I can guess what kind of power you are talking about), then they like the radical element, which makes them partly to blame. Thank you for clearing that up for us. I've always thought that, but your confirmation is appreciated.:2wave:

You took what I said out of context. They like power but power requires justification otherwise it will come across as senseless savagery. Islam is an ancient spiritual system in the Middle East that all people know and understand, so it can be conveniently manipulated for political causes. Any religion that becomes political is being taken out of context and is NOT true to the vast, vast majority of its followers.

A good allegory is Bush and terrorism. He used military power to invade Iraq even though Al Qaeda had no connection to Saddam, but he used terrorism as the vehicle because it was a popular theme among the people. Islam is being manipulated by the same token, and the leaders have power over the military.

"This is a new kind of, a new kind of evil. And the American people are beginning to understand. This crusade, this war on terrorism, is going to take a while. And American people must be patient."
- Bush, Washington, D.C., Sept. 16, 2001

Same religious rhetoric. Same position of power being used to manipulate a belief system to suit an agenda.

So please tell me what the average joe who is just trying to live their day to day life is supposed to do in the face of that power? What are they supposed to do in a nation like Iran where any inkling of protest results in you AND your family getting dragged away in the night and never seen again? Tell me.

It's the fact that the majority of people, even in the fascist countries, are peaceful, non-violent people that it makes it incredibly difficult to overthrow a powerful Shariah regime.

The issue is POWER and not religion.

 

[Invayne]

So you really think we can defeat them without violence?
HOW? Please tell us....

Maybe the same way the Jews defeated the Nazis in WW2?

 

[Invayne]

For example how wrong would it be for a Muslim to lump me together with Bush's horrible policies claiming that the majority of Americans are defined by Bush?

They already have us "generalized"...infidels, kaffirs, etc. Bush has nothing to do with it.

 

[Laila]

Wait a minute. Are you trying to compare a few scam artist "prophets" from a couple of made-up "churches" in the tiniest provence of one of the smallest, poorest, and least educated countries in Africa as representing hundreds of millions of Christians?

Sweetheart, i watched the documentary on Channel 4. Nigeria's witch children and the thinking is directly linked in with their faith.

Oh is that the excuse then?
'Its a made up church'?
I love these excuses, poor and least educated right?

What about Somalia?
People didn't seem to mind shoving that against Islam despite the fact it is THE most unstable, poorest, least educated country in the world.

Quit the whining, Christianity is still as ****ed up as it ever was in parts of the world. Christians have just sugar coated it to make it acceptable.

 

[Laila]

Maybe the same way the Jews defeated the Nazis in WW2?

Wait for the European/US army to come in and save them?

Must be the location. That crap doesn't happen here where people are educated. They're still living in the 1600's.:roll:

Im noting down these excuses so i can use them for Islam when it occurs in poor parts of the world.

But I am impressed that a Jew can be so generous toward a group that wants to wipe Israel off the map....Do your Jewish friends feel the same? or do you stand alone?

Excuse me?
Since when did Muslims as a group say they wanted to wipe out Israel?
Oh wait, now Iran represents us eh? :roll:
What clever thinking.

As a matter of fact, i fully support Israel's right to exist tyvm.

 

[Laila]

They already have us "generalized"...infidels, kaffirs, etc. Bush has nothing to do with it.

Are you sure?
Bush had alot to do with it.

Why wasn't US as hated when Clinton was in power if it has nothing to do with the President in power?

 

[Invayne]

It's like how the Catholics used scripture reinforced by words from the Pope to engage in the Crusades, even though we can now all agree that the Crusades were barbaric and had nothing to do with true Christian teachings.

Yes, they were barbaric and went against Christian teachings, but the Crusades were a defensive war. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression...a defense against Muslim conquests of Christian lands. At some point, Christianity had to defend itself or be consumed by Islam. And they didn't even start defending themselves until, what, 400 years later?:roll:

Iran had a fully functional liberal and democratic society before the CIA sponsored its overthrow and helped the radicals to implement Shariah law.

OMG! Thank you for this! Every time I've said this, all the leftists would scream that it was the Shah that was the evil one, but I guess that's because they didn't like him killing commies.:lol:

When the fundamentalists were marching in the streets and slowly rising to power, it was the moderates and the liberals who were out there chanting right back at them. But once the radicals got to power, they had the guns and they had the military.

Yes, our greatest president of all time, Dhimmi Carter, sure loved him a terrorist. We can thank him for that.