18-to-20-year-olds can’t be barred from buying handguns, judge rules

[Lord of Planar]

Yep

1. Some people who have no NEED to own a gun accept that but LIKE to own guns.
2. Some people who have no NEED to own a gun don't accept that and feel that they NEED to own guns.
3. Some people who NEED to own guns will own guns despite the fact that they do not LIKE to own guns.
4. Some people who LIKE to own guns will not own guns despite the fact that they actually do NEED to own guns.
5. Some people who LIKE to own guns will own guns regardless of whether or not they NEED to own guns.
6. Some people do not pose an existential threat to others regardless of whether or not they own guns.
7. Some people do pose an existential threat to others regardless of whether or not they own guns.
8. The degree of threat to others is not dependent on either "Gun LIKE", "Gun NEED", or "Gun OWNERSHIP".
9. A person who poses an existential threat to others poses a greater threat to others as the damage potential of their possessions increases but that does not "peak out" at "guns".
10. Dealing only with items that it is relatively easy to obtain, the existential threat to others that someone who does pose an existential threat to others does "peak out" at "guns" (with some "guns" posing more of a threat than others).

IOW, "gun ownership" may or may not have anything to do with either "Gun LIKE" or "Gun NEED"

The whole "MOREGunz" vs. "LESSGunz" debate (almost uniformly) ignores the above 10 points (and the "MOREGunz" side is more prone to do so than the "LESSGunz" side is).

It appears you have a problem with people making their own choices.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Except for a small minority, people have guns because they like guns. No other reason.

Of the percentage of gun owners who are properly safety trained (and apply that training consistently) and who routinely use the firearms that they possess in order to ensure that they have the requisite skills to use them appropriately, and who are not likely to be a threat to others REGARDLESS of whether or not they own guns, I will agree with you. [CLass 1 Owners]

Of the percentage of gun owners who "Jus' gotta hav GUNZ" and don't particularly care what type or condition the GUNZ IZ IN and don't handle them safely and who do likely to be a threat to others REGARDLESS of whether or not they own guns, I disagree. [CLass 2 Owners]

Now, please provide a detailed breakdown between "CL1" and "CL2" gun owners so that I can see how far apart we are in our estimates of what percentage of gun owners really ought to (regardless of whether they have the legal ability to) possess guns.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

It appears you have a problem with people making their own choices.

Where did you see me saying that.

Those are factors to be considered when considering how wide spread you want to encourage gun ownership to be.

I've posted it before, but you obviously missed it so

Just to clarify my position on "gun control" I am in favour of universal, permitless, open carry (with the proviso that the person doing so should have demonstrated an adequate knowledge of gun safety, skill in gun use, and an understanding of when it is, and is not, appropriate to use guns [much along the lines of how a person would qualify for a Driver's Licence]). I consider "gun banning" to be a waste of time, money, and effort (at least in the United States of America) on the basis that it simply wouldn't work UNLESS there was a VAST, and highly intrusive, federal bureaucracy dedicated to ENSURING that no one had any guns at all - and any "Good Idea" that simply will not work is NOT actually a "Good Idea".​

Once society has some reasonable assurance that a person is able to legally and safely use

• ____ guns
• ____ cars
• ____ _[fill in the blank]_

then that should be the end of the matter as far as I am concerned.

AND, if the person does not legally and/or safely use

• ____ guns
• ____ cars
• ____ _[fill in the blank]_

then they should suffer the consequences of their own delict and that should be the end of it.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Where did you see me saying that.

Those are factors to be considered when considering how wide spread you want to encourage gun ownership to be.

I've posted it before, but you obviously missed it so

​

Just to clarify my position on "gun control" I am in favour of universal, permitless, open carry (with the proviso that the person doing so should have demonstrated an adequate knowledge of gun safety, skill in gun use, and an understanding of when it is, and is not, appropriate to use guns [much along the lines of how a person would qualify for a Driver's Licence]). I consider "gun banning" to be a waste of time, money, and effort (at least in the United States of America) on the basis that it simply wouldn't work UNLESS there was a VAST, and highly intrusive, federal bureaucracy dedicated to ENSURING that no one had any guns at all - and any "Good Idea" that simply will not work is NOT actually a "Good Idea".​

Once society has some reasonable assurance that a person is able to legally and safely use

• ____ guns
• ____ cars
• ____ _[fill in the blank]_

then that should be the end of the matter as far as I am concerned.

AND, if the person does not legally and/or safely use

• ____ guns
• ____ cars
• ____ _[fill in the blank]_

then they should suffer the consequences of their own delict and that should be the end of it.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood. There are several reasons for any action different people take. For me, I like firing weapons. Hitting a target can be a challenge. I seldom ever go someplace to fire one today, but I use to regularly in high school. Far more than I did in the military. I am comfortable with firearms, and hope I never have to protect myself with one. But especially as our cities grow in crime, it is becoming a perceived need, rather than desire, for me to have one.

 

[Glitch]

It appears you have a problem with people making their own choices.

Fascists always do.

 

[Glitch]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood. There are several reasons for any action different people take. For me, I like firing weapons. Hitting a target can be a challenge. I seldom ever go someplace to fire one today, but I use to regularly in high school. Far more than I did in the military. I am comfortable with firearms, and hope I never have to protect myself with one. But especially as our cities grow in crime, it is becoming a perceived need, rather than desire, for me to have one.

You did not misunderstand. Anyone who thinks they can determine the needs of others is a fascist piece of shit. Only you can determine your needs, nobody else.

Other than hunting, I very rarely carried a firearm when I lived in the lower-48. When living in Nebraska is was common place for high school kids to bring their shotguns to school with them, so we could go hunting pheasant after class. My brothers and I would regularly bring home dinner.

Even while I was serving in the military I regularly hunted wild boar on Catalina Island with my personal firearms. I've owned firearms since my father bought me my first 12-guage at age 10. That was 59 years ago. I still use them today. In two more weeks salmon season begins, and you can be certain that I will be armed for bear.

I have never felt the need to carry a firearm for self-defense from another human. I did not start carrying firearms regularly until after I moved to Alaska in 1991. Now I carry them just about everywhere, but not for protection against another human. The critters I'm concerned about protecting myself against are considerably larger than human.

By staying aware of my surroundings I have managed to have numerous moose and bear encounters in my 32 years in Alaska without resorting to using my firearms once for self-defense. I truly hope it stays that way, but I will continue to carry my firearms just in case it does not. As the adage goes, "it is always better to have a firearm and not need it, than to need a firearm and not have it."

 

[Lord of Planar]

As the adage goes, "it is always better to have a firearm and not need it, than to need a firearm and not have it."

Don't forget Murphy's Law.

It seems when you are prepared for something wrong to happen, it never does. But Lord Murphy seems to have a way off making it happen when you are not prepared.

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood. There are several reasons for any action different people take. For me, I like firing weapons. Hitting a target can be a challenge. I seldom ever go someplace to fire one today, but I use to regularly in high school. Far more than I did in the military. I am comfortable with firearms, and hope I never have to protect myself with one. But especially as our cities grow in crime, it is becoming a perceived need, rather than desire, for me to have one.

Don't you think that your grandkids will sleep better if you adopt a solution that cures the problem rather than one that may or may not prevent the problem from affecting you personally?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

You did not misunderstand. Anyone who thinks they can determine the needs of others is a fascist piece of shit. Only you can determine your needs, nobody else.

Since I never said that I was going to be the person who determined whether or not another "needed" to have guns, I really do wonder what sort of fantasy world your post originated from.

Other than hunting, I very rarely carried a firearm when I lived in the lower-48. When living in Nebraska is was common place for high school kids to bring their shotguns to school with them, so we could go hunting pheasant after class. My brothers and I would regularly bring home dinner.

Obviously didn't live in Omaha.

However, I have never felt the need to carry a firearm for self-defense from another human. I did not start carrying firearms regularly until after I moved to Alaska in 1991. Now I carry them just about everywhere, but not for protection against another human. The critters I'm concerned about protecting myself against are considerably larger than human.

Even to your neighbour's kids Bet Mitzva?

By staying aware of my surroundings I have managed to have numerous moose and bear encounters in my 32 years in Alaska without resorting to using my firearms once for self-defense. I truly hope it stays that way, but I will continue to carry my firearms just in case it does not. As the adage goes, "it is always better to have a firearm and not need it, than to need a firearm and not have it."

For some reason you appear to think that rational people are attempting to stop other rational people from doing a rational thing - just because that other person is carrying a gun when it is rational to do so.

BTW, did you know that the District of Columbia has the highest violent crime rate in the US? If so, do you know what state has the second highest?

 

[TU Curmudgeon]

Don't forget Murphy's Law.

It seems when you are prepared for something wrong to happen, it never does. But Lord Murphy seems to have a way off making it happen when you are not prepared.

The second part is correct, but the first isn't.

The correct formulation is "When you are prepared for something wrong to happen, it WILL still happen - but it will happen in a way that you weren't prepared for it to happen.".

 

[Glitch]

Don't forget Murphy's Law.

It seems when you are prepared for something wrong to happen, it never does. But Lord Murphy seems to have a way off making it happen when you are not prepared.

I have used firecrackers to scare away bears that I felt were getting too close, but I have never had to resort to using firearms. I would only use firearms if I felt my life was in immediate danger, and that has not been the case. I have only encountered non-aggressive bears, and I defer to them. If we find ourselves approaching one another, I will step off the trail a few feet and allow the bear to pass unimpeded. I never attempt to pass a bear without them knowing I'm around first, and I always give them lots of space. The very last thing I want is a surprised bear.

 

[Captain America]

The American Divide

Here's the deal.

There are a LOT of Americans, myself included, that were brought up in a different time. A time when an 8 year old boy got his favorite daisy Red Rider BB gun and spent his days shooting Amalie oil cans off the fence post. Except for the occassional window shot, or a downed sparrow (when mama wasn't looking) no harm was ever realized. When that 8 year old turned 10, his papa bought him his 1st .410 and let him go squirrel hunting with his papa and uncles. Walking through the woods, chasing the squirrel dogs, riding in the back of the truck. Those memories are lifetime memories. Eventually, this boy, having honed his skills and gun safety habits from his childhood, graduates to 30.06 and is driving the 4 wheeler at deer camp. He likes guns. They are fun to shoot at the range and they are fun to hunt with and all that goes with it. This boy, now a man, owns severally guns and he is very responsible with them.

On the other hand.......

There are a LOT of Americans who have a totally different gun experience. Maybe, their uncle committed suicide in the front seat of their car. Perhaps they have been robbed at gun point. Maybe their car was riddled with bullet holes during the latest drive-by. Maybe they, too, out of fear, had to go out and buy a gun of their own. The same one that little 2 year old sister found and accidently shot mommy with. A LOT of those Americans never owned a BB gun or experienced the fellowship and camaradie and family traditions the guy above knew at his deer camps. They cannot relate. Guns, from every angle, has been a curse in their lives.

The people who were raised in the culture of BB guns and family traditions, cannot accept that they should be monitored and controlled or, even worse, banned from having any weapon of choice just because of a bunch of heathens, 100 miles away from them, decided to go all gangsta and can't control their violent actions. They do not see this as their problem.

These two types of cultures are worlds apart.

I wish both sides would take a moment to stand in the shoes of the guy on the other side. Just for a while. But we know that ain't gonna happen either, right? "Not my circus, not my monkeys." Most people are like that these days.

Thus the divide.

Even if we ALL wanted zero tolerance on gun possession, it would still never work.

As cliche as it is, when guns are outlawed, only outlaws..... (you know the rest.) The irony is, if you run out and get a gun for protection, there are significant odds that the gun will harm you before it ever protects you.

Myself, I wish guns were never invented. I prefer hunting with a bow anyway. But that cat is out of the bag. That ship done sailed. We can't get toothpaste back into the tube. The guns are here. The streets are flooded with them. I have experienced both cultures. I have seen the good side of gun ownership and I have witnessed the bad side of irresponsible gun ownership. And as long as people within 10 miles from me out there robbing, car-jacking, etc., I will never stand ready to have my guns taken away. I would love it if God waved a magic wand and took every human killing weapon off the face of this planet. But that ain't gonna happen. So here I remain.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Don't you think that your grandkids will sleep better if you adopt a solution that cures the problem rather than one that may or may not prevent the problem from affecting you personally?

My grand kids are growing up under different setting than i did. Why do you think your words mean anything to me?

 

[Lord of Planar]

I have used firecrackers to scare away bears that I felt were getting too close, but I have never had to resort to using firearms. I would only use firearms if I felt my life was in immediate danger, and that has not been the case. I have only encountered non-aggressive bears, and I defer to them. If we find ourselves approaching one another, I will step off the trail a few feet and allow the bear to pass unimpeded. I never attempt to pass a bear without them knowing I'm around first, and I always give them lots of space. The very last thing I want is a surprised bear.

When I was out hunting with others, the only time we went bear hunting, I was told you never shoot at a bear unless it is a kill shot.

You only piss them off!

I don't know if its true or not, but it rings true.

 

[Rich2018]

Of the percentage of gun owners who are properly safety trained (and apply that training consistently) and who routinely use the firearms that they possess in order to ensure that they have the requisite skills to use them appropriately, and who are not likely to be a threat to others REGARDLESS of whether or not they own guns, I will agree with you. [CLass 1 Owners]

Of the percentage of gun owners who "Jus' gotta hav GUNZ" and don't particularly care what type or condition the GUNZ IZ IN and don't handle them safely and who do likely to be a threat to others REGARDLESS of whether or not they own guns, I disagree. [CLass 2 Owners]

Now, please provide a detailed breakdown between "CL1" and "CL2" gun owners so that I can see how far apart we are in our estimates of what percentage of gun owners really ought to (regardless of whether they have the legal ability to) possess guns.

Are you suggesting that mass shootings are a result of poor training ?

 

[Fledermaus]

Are you suggesting that mass shootings are a result of poor training ?

Please share where exactly you saw that claim.

 

[Glitch]

When I was out hunting with others, the only time we went bear hunting, I was told you never shoot at a bear unless it is a kill shot.

You only piss them off!

I don't know if its true or not, but it rings true.

Alaskan bear guides want hunters to use 0.4XX caliber rifles or larger. If they use something smaller the guides will add a few more thousand to their fee because they know they will be taking the second shot to kill the bear.

I have seen 900+ pound brown bears taken with a Ruger .454 Casull revolver. I am going to have to agree with the bears guides and stick with 0.4XX cal. or larger when it comes to bears. Which is why I carry .65 cal. slugs in my AR-12 and carry a Rugger .44 Mag. revolver as back-up (because it is damn difficult to fish while holding a long gun).

Charging Bear Killed in Alaska

The story (and photos) of Greg Brush's near-fatal bear encounter near Soldotna, Alaska.

www.fieldandstream.com

It is the reason why I purchased my Remington .458 Win. Mag. just before I moved to Alaska. However, after living in Alaska for a couple of years I decided against hunting bear and sold my rifle. It was costing me more than $5/round and each round I fired came with a 60-pound recoil. I could only fire five consecutive shots with that rifle before my shoulder couldn't take any more. Thankfully, I was able to get what I paid for the rifle, so other than the ammo, it didn't cost me anything.

 

[PirateMk1]

The American Divide

Here's the deal.

There are a LOT of Americans, myself included, that were brought up in a different time. A time when an 8 year old boy got his favorite daisy Red Rider BB gun and spent his days shooting Amalie oil cans off the fence post. Except for the occassional window shot, or a downed sparrow (when mama wasn't looking) no harm was ever realized. When that 8 year old turned 10, his papa bought him his 1st .410 and let him go squirrel hunting with his papa and uncles. Walking through the woods, chasing the squirrel dogs, riding in the back of the truck. Those memories are lifetime memories. Eventually, this boy, having honed his skills and gun safety habits from his childhood, graduates to 30.06 and is driving the 4 wheeler at deer camp. He likes guns. They are fun to shoot at the range and they are fun to hunt with and all that goes with it. This boy, now a man, owns severally guns and he is very responsible with them.

On the other hand.......

There are a LOT of Americans who have a totally different gun experience. Maybe, their uncle committed suicide in the front seat of their car. Perhaps they have been robbed at gun point. Maybe their car was riddled with bullet holes during the latest drive-by. Maybe they, too, out of fear, had to go out and buy a gun of their own. The same one that little 2 year old sister found and accidently shot mommy with. A LOT of those Americans never owned a BB gun or experienced the fellowship and camaradie and family traditions the guy above knew at his deer camps. They cannot relate. Guns, from every angle, has been a curse in their lives.

The people who were raised in the culture of BB guns and family traditions, cannot accept that they should be monitored and controlled or, even worse, banned from having any weapon of choice just because of a bunch of heathens, 100 miles away from them, decided to go all gangsta and can't control their violent actions. They do not see this as their problem.

These two types of cultures are worlds apart.

I wish both sides would take a moment to stand in the shoes of the guy on the other side. Just for a while. But we know that ain't gonna happen either, right? "Not my circus, not my monkeys." Most people are like that these days.

Thus the divide.

Even if we ALL wanted zero tolerance on gun possession, it would still never work.

As cliche as it is, when guns are outlawed, only outlaws..... (you know the rest.) The irony is, if you run out and get a gun for protection, there are significant odds that the gun will harm you before it ever protects you.

Myself, I wish guns were never invented. I prefer hunting with a bow anyway. But that cat is out of the bag. That ship done sailed. We can't get toothpaste back into the tube. The guns are here. The streets are flooded with them. I have experienced both cultures. I have seen the good side of gun ownership and I have witnessed the bad side of irresponsible gun ownership. And as long as people within 10 miles from me out there robbing, car-jacking, etc., I will never stand ready to have my guns taken away. I would love it if God waved a magic wand and took every human killing weapon off the face of this planet. But that ain't gonna happen. So here I remain.

If somehow God took all the man killing weapons away, man would not exist as man is the man killing weapon.

 

[Glitch]

If somehow God took all the man killing weapons away, man would not exist as man is the man killing weapon.

As far as natural weaponry is concerned, humans are pathetic. We are just about on the level as slugs and sponges. We are pathetically soft, only requiring 3 PSI to break our flesh. Had it not been for our one natural advantage that sets our species apart from all others we would have gone extinct long ago.

Although, looking at what has become of our species it can be seriously questioned how we managed to get so far with as many stupid people we see in society today. Maybe we've reached our peak and are now devolving instead of evolving.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Although, looking at what has become of our species it can be seriously questioned how we managed to get so far with as many stupid people we see in society today. Maybe we've reached our peak and are now devolving instead of evolving.

It does appear we are devolving. Too many people wanting to control others, with stupid ideas. Too many people wanting to be lazy and benifit from the spoils of those who work hard and achieve.

 

[PirateMk1]

As far as natural weaponry is concerned, humans are pathetic. We are just about on the level as slugs and sponges. We are pathetically soft, only requiring 3 PSI to break our flesh. Had it not been for our one natural advantage that sets our species apart from all others we would have gone extinct long ago.

Although, looking at what has become of our species it can be seriously questioned how we managed to get so far with as many stupid people we see in society today. Maybe we've reached our peak and are now devolving instead of evolving.

Natural selection was put on pause for a bit. It will soon be in full force. The stupid will die out quickly when the smart realize just how mush a drag they are. Of course keeping a dummy or 2 around as a way to attract the attention of an unwanted interloper may be smart.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Natural selection was put on pause for a bit. It will soon be in full force. The stupid will die out quickly when the smart realize just how mush a drag they are. Of course keeping a dummy or 2 around as a way to attract the attention of an unwanted interloper may be smart.

I think Star Trek Deep Space 9 was correct on upcoming sanctuary district in cities.

 

[Lord of Planar]

 

[Rich2018]

A second Trump presidency would be a nightmare.

 

[SiNNiK]

Please share where exactly you saw that claim.

I'm sure I don't want to see where he pulled that from.