17 states sue to block citizenship question on 2020 census

[MSgt]

Here's the thing, slaves were here legally, even if only counted as "3/5ths", illegally here doesn't count and to accord a law breaker with representation is to me, madness.

Sure, but you are arguing with a 2018 perspective of a late eighteenth and nineteenth century reality.

Madness? Maybe. But we live in a society of Rights, taxes, and laws (in that order?). We decided long ago that minorities, without the power to vote, should be represented for simply existing. They were not citizens. We decided long ago that foreigners are accorded our Rights within our borders as we welcomed (italicized) immigrants into Ellis Island. And throughout the nineteenth century, the Southern Border was in constant fluctuation and not so simply established (and it was established in accordance to local ranch, mining, and local government declarations by the way). Today, we want to make "illegal immigrant" synonymous with "criminal," but we are talking about a ridiculously vast number of people who just want to migrate and provide for their family at really no cost to the tax payer. And in the end, most of them pay taxes!

So to me, the madness lies in exaggerating this issue into to some attack on our nationalism or well being. After all, if my livelihood perspective relies on a Mexican looking to feed his family on the bare minimum in our country, or my patriotism to protect the country from actual militant enemies, I should rethink my perspective. In the end, this perspective usually comes from political ideology that has no real established base.

 

[Amelia]

Don't ask if they're a citizen for a census count, and don't require legal ID to vote.

The agenda is pretty clear.

The official constitutional agenda is to get an accurate count of the number of people living in the United States. Presently the Trump administration's agenda threatens the constitutional mandate. We shall see how the courts rule.

 

[Renae]

Sure, but you are arguing with a 2018 perspective of a late eighteenth and nineteenth century reality.

Madness? Maybe. But we live in a society of Rights, taxes, and laws (in that order?). We decided long ago that minorities, without the power to vote, should be represented for simply existing. They were not citizens. We decided long ago that foreigners are accorded our Rights within our borders as we welcomed (italicized) immigrants into Ellis Island. And throughout the nineteenth century, the Southern Border was in constant fluctuation and not so simply established (and it was established in accordance to local ranch, mining, and local government declarations by the way). Today, we want to make "illegal immigrant" synonymous with "criminal," but we are talking about a ridiculously vast number of people who just want to migrate and provide for their family at really no cost to the tax payer. And in the end, most of them pay taxes!

So to me, the madness lies in exaggerating this issue into to some attack on our nationalism or well being. After all, if my livelihood perspective relies on a Mexican looking to feed his family on the bare minimum in our country, or my patriotism to protect the country from actual militant enemies, I should rethink my perspective. In the end, this perspective usually comes from political ideology that has no real established base.

No one is against legal immigrants, just the illegals. It's about discouraging people who would willingly violate our laws from being here.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

In 1940 it was to identify people of German & Japanese citizenship or birth. Then for 78 years it was not a problem. Now under Trump it is a problem.

I looked at volunteering to be an enumerator during a past census. They have classes that they have to attend. I'd love to be a fly on the wall to see the 'special' instructions they might get: does the family look Latino? Middle Eastern? Speak with foreign accent or no English?

Why would that matter since the census is all self reported information anyway? You can lie or not even answer it at all and never get consequences

 

[Amelia]

No one is against legal immigrants, just the illegals. It's about discouraging people who would willingly violate our laws from being here.

Ann Coulter, for one conspicuous example, has come out strongly against even legal immigrants. For that matter, so has Trump. He has insulted wide swaths of legal immigrants and proposed policies to stop more of that supposedly undesireable kind of immigrant from coming in or staying. He only wants a certain class of immigrants from a certain class of countries. It's too bad that he's turning the U.S. into the kind of country which few of the desirable people would find attractive.

 

[JacksinPA]

Ann Coulter, for one conspicuous example, has come out strongly against even legal immigrants. For that matter, so has Trump. He has insulted wide swaths of legal immigrants and proposed policies to stop more of that supposedly undesireable kind of immigrant from coming in or staying. He only wants a certain class of immigrants from a certain class of countries. It's too bad that he's turning the U.S. into the kind of country which few of the desirable people would find attractive.

It should come as no surprise than xenophobia seems to be a hallmark of conservatism.

xen·o·pho·bi·a
ˌzenəˈfōbēə,ˌzēnəˈfōbēə
noun
intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Yet, by law, it is not. Our representation has always, by Constitution, been based on bodies, not simply citizenship. By declaring the slave as three-fifths worthy of representation, we codified existence as mattering to representation. It's why an "illegal" in our country is subject to our Rights. Contrary to this would be to announce that the "illegal" has no Rights.

Besides, after we "kick out" the millions of illegals picking our crops, will you pick my grapes? No? But I like my winses! As I stated, this is not such a black and white issue as some want. You have allowed your leadership to politically manipulate you into an anger that really doesn't merit such energy.

I believe we talked before. Were you blue Navy, white Navy, or green Navy? I just like to try to know the military community around here.

This is a terrible argument “who will pick my grapes” well if there’s not enough grape pickers the vineyards will have to raise wages until they find enough labor or automate roles until they can do without as much labor. This is propaganda by farmers to justify paying illegals low wages and force their labor costs on to society

 

[Renae]

Ann Coulter, for one conspicuous example, has come out strongly against even legal immigrants. For that matter, so has Trump. He has insulted wide swaths of legal immigrants and proposed policies to stop more of that supposedly undesireable kind of immigrant from coming in or staying. He only wants a certain class of immigrants from a certain class of countries. It's too bad that he's turning the U.S. into the kind of country which few of the desirable people would find attractive.

Please provide the evidence of your claims, as far as I am aware, you are... most wrong.

 

[Mason66]

It was asked in 1940 but not since. The world in 1940 was very chaotic - wars in Asia & in Europe, and a lot of people were concerned about foreign spies & such. There are a lot of people who believe that FDR was working to get us into WWII so if Britain got invaded we wouldn't be facing the Nazis in Canada & perhaps Mexico.

So why now - under Trump?

Was it not asked in the '90s as well?

 

[Mason66]

They would in 2020 if Trump gets his way. You have to wonder what the real reasons are for suddenly putting the citizenship question back in.

Scholars are concerned that most illegals will simply not answer this question & as a result their district will be undercounted.

Asking a question is not asking to see papers.

 

[Mason66]

It's the principle of being required possibly to in some way incriminate yourself as an illegal.

The last time a census taker asked you questions, did he ask your name and other personal information?

I don't remember giving any of that. He asked general questions and that was it.

 

[JacksinPA]

Was it not asked in the '90s as well?

Here is the 1990 form. They ask about race but not about citizenship. That was last asked in 1940 as I have posted before. https://www.census.gov/history/pdf/1990_questionnaire.pdf

 

[Amelia]

Ann Coulter, for one conspicuous example, has come out strongly against even legal immigrants. For that matter, so has Trump. He has insulted wide swaths of legal immigrants and proposed policies to stop more of that supposedly undesireable kind of immigrant from coming in or staying. He only wants a certain class of immigrants from a certain class of countries. It's too bad that he's turning the U.S. into the kind of country which few of the desirable people would find attractive.

Please provide the evidence of your claims, as far as I am aware, you are... most wrong.

Which claims? I don't want to knock myself out going to find links for what I thought was more common knowledge on a political forum.

I'll start with one of Ann Coulter's statements in opposition to legal immigrants:

Here she comes out against 90% of legal immigrants:

Ann Coulter: It's not just illegal immigration that's the problem; it's all immigration

That wasn't her only statement against legal immigration.


For Trump will start with his attempt to end what he calls "chain migration". That's ONE kind of legal immigration that he is opposed to, and one class of legal immigrant he has not been shy about insulting.

Do you need more examples?

 

[MSgt]

No one is against legal immigrants, just the illegals. It's about discouraging people who would willingly violate our laws from being here.

Sure, but what "illegal" is hurting who's rights and well being? It's largely BS, politicized into an ideology, that demands we pay through treasure to deal with.

- Actual terrorists are either home grown or fly in on airplanes.
- It is a proven fact that "illegal" immigrants are less likely to commit crime, not only for fear of discovery but because of cultural community and peer pressure.
- And it is a proven fact that most wind up paying taxes, depending on their employment, which goes into an American tax pool.

In the mean time, schools, theaters, and Vegas concerts are being shot up by red-blooded white Americans. So what, other than the ideology of it, is the real problem? To me, this is like demanding we have anti-Sharia laws, despite Sharia not being a threat.

 

[Mason66]

Here is the 1990 form. They ask about race but not about citizenship. That was last asked in 1940 as I have posted before. https://www.census.gov/history/pdf/1990_questionnaire.pdf

The 2000 census question 12.

https://www.census.gov/dmd/www/pdf/d02p.pdf

Do you know who was President when the 2000 census questions were created?

 

[Samhain]

Sure, but what "illegal" is hurting who's rights and well being?

As a sponsor for a legal immigrant, I can tell you she's not happy with those that are skipping the process.

 

[MSgt]

This is a terrible argument “who will pick my grapes” well if there’s not enough grape pickers the vineyards will have to raise wages until they find enough labor or automate roles until they can do without as much labor. This is propaganda by farmers to justify paying illegals low wages and force their labor costs on to society

Sure. I look forward to you raising your children to perform manual grape picking labor. Hey, there's a tomato farm down the street looking for privileged white/black kids who are raised to think that their youthful computer expertise guarantees them a generous salary after High School!

The terrible argument is to argue against the reality. It actually argues against our entire history.

 

[madman]

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/wh...lock-citizenship-question-2020-census-n862406

A coalition of 17 states, Washington, D.C., and six cities announced Tuesday that they are suing to block the Trump administration from adding a citizenship question to the 2020 U.S. census.

The lawsuit, led by New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman, argues that the question will depress responses in states with large immigrant populations. This would cause the census to run afoul of the "constitutional requirement" that the government fairly and accurately count all people in the country, Schneiderman said at a news conference announcing the suit.
=============================================================
I would think that the citizenship question is unconstitutional for several reasons.

Let's also gather papers of those that own guns in the home also.

 

[Middle_Ground]

Bull****. Representatives represent the will of the people in their district that can VOTE.

Hint: illegal immigrants shouldn't be here at all. Let alone be a concern of the census.

So there should be no representation for legal non citizens?
They can't vote but they use the schools, roads, public water and sewer.
Are you really saying only American citizens use those things so **** the LEGAL permanent residents?

 

[Renae]

Which claims? I don't want to knock myself out going to find links for what I thought was more common knowledge on a political forum.

I'll start with one of Ann Coulter's statements in opposition to legal immigrants:

Here she comes out against 90% of legal immigrants:

Ann Coulter: It's not just illegal immigration that's the problem; it's all immigration

That wasn't her only statement against legal immigration.


For Trump will start with his attempt to end what he calls "chain migration". That's ONE kind of legal immigration that he is opposed to, and one class of legal immigrant he has not been shy about insulting.

Do you need more examples?

That's not exactly what she's saying, what you're claiming. You are taking only the bit of her stance that matches your need and making a wide cast. She's making an argument to end all immigration for 10 years, and then to revamp it so that we take in highly skilled people vs "poorest of the poor" and her angle is that our immigration system is broken.

Not the angle you are claiming.

Yes, I'd need a real example, not a falsely constructed one like you made.

 

[Middle_Ground]

This is a terrible argument “who will pick my grapes” well if there’s not enough grape pickers the vineyards will have to raise wages until they find enough labor or automate roles until they can do without as much labor. This is propaganda by farmers to justify paying illegals low wages and force their labor costs on to society

You may want to read up on this problem...$13-16 an hour for unskilled labor is not bad and they still can't get American born. How much are you willing to pay for a green pepper or an onion?
Wages rise on California farms. Americans still don’t want the job - Los Angeles Times

 

[ttwtt78640]

Sure. I look forward to you raising your children to perform manual grape picking labor. Hey, there's a tomato farm down the street looking for privileged white/black kids who are raised to think that their youthful computer expertise guarantees them a generous salary after High School!

The terrible argument is to argue against the reality. It actually argues against our entire history.

Your argument makes sense only in the absence of the "safety net". If the grape picker (or any other occupation getting low wages) gets paid too little (below FPL) then the "safety net" makes up much of the difference. The vineyard owner loves it since they need not pay a living wage to attract and retain qualified labor - other people (aka taxpayers) are forced to make up the shortfall.

 

[MSgt]

As a sponsor for a legal immigrant, I can tell you she's not happy with those that are skipping the process.

I can sympathize. Perhaps this is an issue of our "legal" processes being so gummed up with bureaucracy? My Afghan interpreter (Waheed) is in California right now, having earned his entry on his service to the U.S. military. This does not change the fact that our labor necessities in many fields demand that "illegal" surpass what bureaucracy continually fails to keep up with as we bicker about idiot walls and military occupation on the border as if we are Kenya.

Besides, as a libertarian, shouldn't you be all about the individual freedom of movement beyond petty man-made government borders? Discover the meaning.

 

[Renae]

Sure, but what "illegal" is hurting who's rights and well being? It's largely BS, politicized into an ideology, that demands we pay through treasure to deal with.

- Actual terrorists are either home grown or fly in on airplanes.
- It is a proven fact that "illegal" immigrants are less likely to commit crime, not only for fear of discovery but because of cultural community and peer pressure.
- And it is a proven fact that most wind up paying taxes, depending on their employment, which goes into an American tax pool.

In the mean time, schools, theaters, and Vegas concerts are being shot up by red-blooded white Americans. So what, other than the ideology of it, is the real problem? To me, this is like demanding we have anti-Sharia laws, despite Sharia not being a threat.

Every illegal is a criminal just by being here, so I can say they are 100% criminals.

They cost **** ton more than they pay into the pool.

The Cost of Illegal Immigration to US Taxpayers | FAIR

Do try to educate yourself on the whole issue.

Oh, and illegal and taxes? Yeah, barking up the wrong tree here bud, I know the stats, and you're in error.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robert...cial-security-numbers-for-taxes/#36eb28e64c04

 

[MSgt]

Your argument makes sense only in the absence of the "safety net". If the grape picker (or any other occupation getting low wages) gets paid too little (below FPL) then the "safety net" makes up much of the difference. The vineyard owner loves it since they need not pay a living wage to attract and retain qualified labor - other people (aka taxpayers) are forced to make up the shortfall.

This is unproven ideology and defies good sense. Replace the illegal with the American nineteen year old, and you get the same crappy tax-paying salary. As I have stated, the moment American high school graduates have an aspiration to make it big in the crop picking industry is the moment we can sensibly entertain the idea that illegals Mexicans steal jobs or that illegals reduce salaries.