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10 yr old shot two weeks after 2 yr old

Rich2018 said:
It's not

It's that nothing has been done to reduce it.
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Federal ban on Bump Stocks, States passing red flag laws, States instituting mandatory back ground checks, are all things beinf done to reduce gun deaths.
 
DebateChallenge said:
...I was just pointing out an obvious difference in the requirements to build guns vs the requirements to grow cocaine....
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You've never heard of a greenhouse?


...you must not be familiar with guns in Western Pakistan. Over there if people don't buy guns they often make their own. And they don't need big factories to build guns, there was this fellow who would build guns in his own workshop, he didn't have a big factory with huge resources, he had a workshop. And he had been doing it for more than thirty years. Many of the guns he built were copies of popular American models, and they worked just as well....
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Citation required


...today with modern technology such as 3D printers, some of which print in metal, it will be easier than ever....
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Nope

Is that your cad-cam engineering speaking or some crap you invented ?

...they were manufactured in people's back yards back during colonial times...
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No they weren't

Ammunition perhaps but not guns


...visit a muzzleloading gun shop and talk to some of the people there and you will see that Im right...
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How about you provide some proof ?


...your wet pipe dream of having the same kind of gun control in the USA....will never happen.
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I didn't say it would.

But it is still a goal worth achieving and a possibility.
 
Chillfolks said:
Federal ban on Bump Stocks, States passing red flag laws, States instituting mandatory back ground checks, are all things beinf done to reduce gun deaths.
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Federal bans on bump stocks is nothing - the ban on fully automatic guns were more significant
That said how many mass shootings have ever been carried out with an automatic gun or bump-stock compared to the almost one mass shooting a day total ?

What red flag laws are you talking about ?

Mandatory background checks have been around for a while - how about a mandatory FEDERAL back ground check to close loopholes ?
 
Rich2018 said:
Mandatory background checks have been around for a while - how about a mandatory FEDERAL back ground check to close loopholes ?
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We've been over this. As long as the Mandatory Background Checks are kept at a reasonable price, preferably under $5.00 but not exceed $10.00, and they are open to anyone to use instead of just FFL holders I am fine with requiring background checks.
 
KevinKohler said:
For missuse of their product?

So...if an airline pilot gets smashed, and flies anyway, and crashes, we get to sue Boeing?

You're not worth my time, on this particular subject. You're not changing, and neither am I.
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It is not misuse, handguns are designed to kill people. They have no other valid use.
 
Chillfolks said:
We've been over this. As long as the Mandatory Background Checks are kept at a reasonable price, preferably under $5.00 but not exceed $10.00, and they are open to anyone to use instead of just FFL holders I am fine with requiring background checks.
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I'd say they should be at ecxonomic cost.

So for example id the cost of these national background checks is $80 million and we have 1 million requests, the cost is $80 for every check.
 
Rich2018 said:
how about a mandatory FEDERAL back ground check to close loopholes ?
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The NICS background check is a Federal background check.

You didn't mention in this specific post (I don't want to read through all 46 pages to see if you did in another post but I'm sure we can all understand that lol) so I'm going to assume you're referring to the gunshow loopholes and online purchasing loopholes, correct?
 
Rich2018 said:
I'd say they should be at ecxonomic cost.

So for example id the cost of these national background checks is $80 million and we have 1 million requests, the cost is $80 for every check.
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I would disagree simply because the more expensive you make the background check the less likely it will be run. It needs to be easy and cheap or people will not use the system and we will have accomplished nothing.
 
Premium Paper said:
The NICS background check is a Federal background check.

You didn't mention in this specific post (I don't want to read through all 46 pages to see if you did in another post but I'm sure we can all understand that lol) so I'm going to assume you're referring to the gunshow loopholes and online purchasing loopholes, correct?
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There was a case where a man passed a background check but had been kicked out of the air force for a gun related incident that the back ground check didn't have access to.
 
Chillfolks said:
I would disagree simply because the more expensive you make the background check the less likely it will be run. It needs to be easy and cheap or people will not use the system and we will have accomplished nothing.
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That's Ok, I feel the same about marriage licenses hunting licenses, fishing licenses and licenses to work as a barman etc
 
Rich2018 said:
It should be mandatory to use it. There should be no choice and the people using it should not pay the fee.
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There is no way to guarantee it will be used, the best we can hope for is the system would be easy enough and cheap enough to use so people would opt to follow any laws regarding its use.
 
Chillfolks said:
There is no way to guarantee it will be used, the best we can hope for is the system would be easy enough and cheap enough to use so people would opt to follow any laws regarding its use.
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Then punish anyone selling a gun who doesn't
 
Rich2018 said:
Then punish anyone selling a gun who doesn't
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Sure if you can catch them and prove they didn't run the background check they should be punished.
 
Rich2018 said:
It should be mandatory to use it. There should be no choice and the people using it should not pay the fee.
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if we could only demand crack dealers and heroin pushers require prescriptions from those who buy narcotics from them. That will stop overdoses for sure
 
Rich2018 said:
There was a case where a man passed a background check but had been kicked out of the air force for a gun related incident that the back ground check didn't have access to.
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Yes I understand the NICS background check isn't perfect, and there have been changes made over time,
"The Fix NICS Act of 2017 is a United States federal law passed as part of the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2018 signed as Pub.L.115-141 by President Donald Trump on March 23, 2018. "The law applies penalties to government agencies for not reporting to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)."

The first FixNICS Act report was submitted not too long ago either, finding that it improved the NICS background check system,
"
- There was an increase of over six million records in the three national databases searched with every NICS check – a 6.2 percent increase.

- The number of Firearm Retrieval Referrals (FRRs) – where a prohibited person is able to purchase a firearm because the background check could not be concluded within three business days due to incomplete records – decreased each month in comparison to the same month during the previous year, for an average monthly decline of 102 FRRs.

- With the exception of one month, there was an increase in the percentage of NICS checks resulting in an immediate determination – not requiring a delay for further research – compared to the previous year."
DOJ Submits First Report on Fix NICS Act - Employment Screening Resources

The NICS background check isn't flawless, and there shouldn't be an expectation that the database will be correct every. Single. Time. However improvements made to the database show it is improving. According to a study by the Department of Justice, between 1994 and 2014, federal, state, and local agencies conducted background checks on more than 180 million firearm applications and denied 2.82 million gun sales to prohibited purchasers. To date, the background check system has blocked over 3 million firearm sales to prohibited purchasers.

Karberg JC, Frandsen RJ, Durso JM, et al. "Background Checks for Firearm Transfers, 2013-2014." Bureau of Justice Statistics. https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/bcft1314st.pdf. Published June 2016. Accessed November 19, 2019.

Now as I had asked about before, what loopholes specifically were you referring to in the context of purchasing firearms?
 
Making something cheap doesn't necessarily mean that the people who follow it would be okay with it.
 
Rich2018 said:
There was a case where a man passed a background check but had been kicked out of the air force for a gun related incident that the back ground check didn't have access to.
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Right but that doesn't mean that the NICS background check doesn't work, and there have in fact been new legislation put in place to try and help improve the NICS.

"The Fix NICS Act of 2017 is a United States federal law passed as part of the Consolidated Appropriations Act, 2018 signed as Pub.L.115-141 by President Donald Trump on March 23, 2018. The law applies penalties to government agencies for not reporting to the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS)."

Fix NICS Act of 2017 - Wikipedia.

The Department of Justice recently released its first report on the Fix NICS Act, finding,
"-There was an increase of over six million records in the three national databases searched with every NICS check – a 6.2 percent increase.

-The number of Firearm Retrieval Referrals (FRRs) – where a prohibited person is able to purchase a firearm because the background check could not be concluded within three business days due to incomplete records – decreased each month in comparison to the same month during the previous year, for an average monthly decline of 102 FRRs.

-With the exception of one month, there was an increase in the percentage of NICS checks resulting in an immediate determination – not requiring a delay for further research – compared to the previous year."

It's unreasonable to believe that any database is going to be flawless and work every time or that every government employee (in this case anyone responsible for inputting data into any of the databases under the NICS check) or even any employee in general is going to do their job to the T every time. But the NICS background check has served well since 1994. According to a study by the Department of Justice, between 1994 and 2014, federal, state, and local agencies conducted background checks on more than 180 million firearm applications and denied 2.82 million gun sales to prohibited purchasers. To date, the background check system has blocked over 3 million firearm sales to prohibited purchasers.

Source: Karberg JC, Frandsen RJ, Durso JM, et al. "Background Checks for Firearm Transfers, 2013-2014." Bureau of Justice Statistics. https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/bcft1314st.pdf. Published June 2016. Accessed November 19, 2019.

There will be some cases where applicants possibly slip through the cracks, and I don't think we should just shrug that off either. Improvements should be made to improve the accuracy and efficiency of the NICS background system. But it is a Federal background check, like you called for.

Now could you please specify the loopholes you were referring to in your previous post?
 
iguanaman said:
It is not misuse, handguns are designed to kill people. They have no other valid use.
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They are designed to kill, yes. But they can still be misused. Which is to say, in the committing of a crime. In fact, their misuses are all completely illegal.
 
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