“The material world is a lie" motivations of Oregon CC shooter

[Citizen.Seven]

Re: “The material world is a lie" motivations of Oregon CC shooter

Personally I don't see that as a violation in so much that it is a requirement in stores and is not about controlling firearms. If they extended it beyond stores I would feel differently. It is a protection for stores not selling to convicted felons or anyone else that could be considered a felony. It is like checking your ID to go into a bar. The business doesn't have the luxury of being able to discriminate or profile their customers. That would be a violation of another law, so they must resort to this.

Forcing me to pay for background checks to purchase firearms privately would be an infringement. Especially since I CAN profile.

If gun stores, independent of law, wanted to do background checks, then that would be their right. However, then, I would take my business elsewhere, to a store that does not require this. That is not the case, however. They are required by federal law, so there is no differentiation in the market: everybody has to do it.

Bars, generally, only check if there is some doubt about the age of the patron, that they are legally eligible to drink. Most bars I've been to don't check people obviously old enough.

 

[Cryptic]

Re: “The material world is a lie" motivations of Oregon CC shooter

It looks like the mother of the Oregon rampager knew he had mental health issues:
Oregon shooter's mom wrote about loaded guns, Asperger's - CNN.com

She might have purchased weapons for him, and might have facilitated his going to shooting ranges etc:
All the guns were legally obtained by the shooter or family members over the last three years through a federally licensed firearms dealer, a federal official said last week.


Though I am loathe to punish a third party for another's criminal actions (slippery slope), I would support charging the women with accessorry to murder if both of the above possibilities are true. Likewise, if I know somebody is an alcoholic and is known to drive, yet I provide him with free 12 packs, trips to the store and liquor store coupons etc., I should be held criminally accountable as an accessory as well should he kill someone via DWI.

 

[roguenuke]

Re: “The material world is a lie" motivations of Oregon CC shooter

If gun stores, independent of law, wanted to do background checks, then that would be their right. However, then, I would take my business elsewhere, to a store that does not require this. That is not the case, however. They are required by federal law, so there is no differentiation in the market: everybody has to do it.

Bars, generally, only check if there is some doubt about the age of the patron, that they are legally eligible to drink. Most bars I've been to don't check people obviously old enough.

Most bars I've been to check everyone. In fact, some people get turned away even if they have a valid ID simply because the person has an out of state ID instead of a license.

 

[blackjack50]

Re: “The material world is a lie" motivations of Oregon CC shooter

If gun stores, independent of law, wanted to do background checks, then that would be their right. However, then, I would take my business elsewhere, to a store that does not require this. That is not the case, however. They are required by federal law, so there is no differentiation in the market: everybody has to do it.

Bars, generally, only check if there is some doubt about the age of the patron, that they are legally eligible to drink. Most bars I've been to don't check people obviously old enough.

But with said bar...they are not under any legal obligation to not sell to felons. So an ID and age profiling is OK. Whereas a store cannot profile a customer on not selling to a felon and so on. That's just my argument and view of it: The store isn't LEGALLY allowed to do that.

So the law is a protection for stores. Where it is not, nor should it be a requirement for private sales. There are numerous examples of stores being legally obligated to follow certain procedures where individuals are not.

 

[Moot]

Books and posts are protected by the 1A, guns by the 2A. Therefore, any power you give government to violate the 2A you are implicitly asserting they have to violate the 1A. If you think brain scans (!) could be made a mandatory condition for gun purchases, that the USFG has that power via I presume the commerce clause, then they also have that power for book purchases and posts via the exact same argument.

Perhaps the same rules and laws for getting an abortion should be applied to buying a gun.

 

[Citizen.Seven]

Re: “The material world is a lie" motivations of Oregon CC shooter

But with said bar...they are not under any legal obligation to not sell to felons. So an ID and age profiling is OK. Whereas a store cannot profile a customer on not selling to a felon and so on. That's just my argument and view of it: The store isn't LEGALLY allowed to do that.

So the law is a protection for stores. Where it is not, nor should it be a requirement for private sales. There are numerous examples of stores being legally obligated to follow certain procedures where individuals are not.

them
Actually, they would be still under a legal obligation not to knowingly sell to felons even without a background check requirement, just as private sales are restricted. In Texas, you can privately sell a gun to anyone who meets eligibility (18 for long guns, 21 for handguns, state resident, not a felon or otherwise barred). However, you are not required to do a background check or anything of the sort. You are allowed to presume innocence if the person presents themselves as a lawful purchaser and you have no reason to believe otherwise.

 

[nota bene]

Re: “The material world is a lie" motivations of Oregon CC shooter

It looks like the mother of the Oregon rampager knew he had mental health issues:
Oregon shooter's mom wrote about loaded guns, Asperger's - CNN.com

She might have purchased weapons for him, and might have facilitated his going to shooting ranges etc:
All the guns were legally obtained by the shooter or family members over the last three years through a federally licensed firearms dealer, a federal official said last week.

Though I am loathe to punish a third party for another's criminal actions (slippery slope), I would support charging the women with accessorry to murder if both of the above possibilities are true. Likewise, if I know somebody is an alcoholic and is known to drive, yet I provide him with free 12 packs, trips to the store and liquor store coupons etc., I should be held criminally accountable as an accessory as well should he kill someone via DWI.

The linked NY Times article in the CNN piece discusses that the shooter's mother claimed to have Asperger's herself and spent a lot of time online talking about this. Her son was hospitalized at a behavioral institute at some point.

And she opposed gun control. I don't see how this contributed in any to her mentally ill son's committing mass murder.

 

[DDD]

Re: “The material world is a lie" motivations of Oregon CC shooter

If you use a medical device on a human, it is a medical procedure. Sure, you could use an MRI to image any non-transition metal object, and it wouldn't be a medical procedure because you are not doing it on a person. You can also sew cloth together, which is usually called "sewing", but if you do it to a human, it's a medical procedure.

Researchers that used the MRI as a tool were not medics. They came from various backgrounds. Why would medics and medics alone claim this technology?

So, you're arguing that increased demand will make prices fall? Really? I'm not familiar with the economic theory that predicts that. And what if Clinton and her wise economists don't gain power? Who will pay the 1000 for an MRI? Insurance won't cover it since you maintain it's not a medical procedure. Even if you acknowledge the obvious truth that it is one, it would be elective, so insurance still won't cover it.

It is not a medical procedure, it would be an upgraded background check procedure. What if Hillary and her wise economists do gain power by making Hillary the first female POTUS?

 

[Citizen.Seven]

Re: “The material world is a lie" motivations of Oregon CC shooter

Researchers that used the MRI as a tool were not medics. They came from various backgrounds. Why would medics and medics alone claim this technology?

If it's used on a human, if is medical. If it's used on an inanimate object, it's not. A physician would have to prescribe the MRI on a human, a properly licensed technologist would have to perform it, and a radiologist would have to interpret it. We are dealing with expesnsive and potentially dangerous equipment, and it's being used on a person to take difficult to interpret images of their brain. Corner cutting is not an option.

It is not a medical procedure, it would be an upgraded background check procedure.

It would be a medical procedure for an "upgraded background check procedure". If you get a physical fof insurance purposes, it is still a medical exam, and is still done by a trained and licensed healthcare provider.

What if Hillary and her wise economists do gain power by making Hillary the first female POTUS?

It would be a tragedy. However the world would not end. She could not change state law concerning who could order, perform, and interpret medical imaging procedures. She would be hard-pressed to justify such procedures in order to exercise 2A (or any other) right andm as such, even if such a monstrous scheme were implemented, the courts would put a stop to it assuming even the tatters of respect for the 2A and 4A. The burden of cost alone would be very difficult to legally justify a violation of 2A.

 

[DDD]

Re: “The material world is a lie" motivations of Oregon CC shooter

If it's used on a human, if is medical. If it's used on an inanimate object, it's not. A physician would have to prescribe the MRI on a human, a properly licensed technologist would have to perform it, and a radiologist would have to interpret it. We are dealing with expesnsive and potentially dangerous equipment, and it's being used on a person to take difficult to interpret images of their brain. Corner cutting is not an option.

This may be so today, but not when the policy to use the MRI as an instrument for background checks becomes law. Then the purpose of the instrument as well as the chain of events described above change to something simpler, such as: MRI centers performing regular brain scans as background checks.

It would be a medical procedure for an "upgraded background check procedure". If you get a physical fof insurance purposes, it is still a medical exam, and is still done by a trained and licensed healthcare provider.

How about just a tool to use for background checks, that is it. No one is getting cured, why even call it "medical?"

It would be a tragedy. However the world would not end. She could not change state law concerning who could order, perform, and interpret medical imaging procedures. She would be hard-pressed to justify such procedures in order to exercise 2A (or any other) right andm as such, even if such a monstrous scheme were implemented, the courts would put a stop to it assuming even the tatters of respect for the 2A and 4A. The burden of cost alone would be very difficult to legally justify a violation of 2A.

As mentioned the cost drops, despite the doom and gloom anxiety driven future projection.

 

[Citizen.Seven]

Re: “The material world is a lie" motivations of Oregon CC shooter

This may be so today, but not when the policy to use the MRI as an instrument for background checks becomes law. Then the purpose of the instrument as well as the chain of events described above change to something simpler, such as: MRI centers performing regular brain scans as background checks.



How about just a tool to use for background checks, that is it. No one is getting cured, why even call it "medical?"



As mentioned the cost drops, despite the doom and gloom anxiety driven future projection.

A diagnosis just identifies the problem, it's not a cure itself. Which is why a mandatory brain scan to exercise a right is so horrible. That's even believing there is a one-to-one correlation between certain brain characteristics and gun violence, which is dubious at best, more like ridiculous.

 

[DDD]

Re: “The material world is a lie" motivations of Oregon CC shooter

A diagnosis just identifies the problem, it's not a cure itself. Which is why a mandatory brain scan to exercise a right is so horrible. That's even believing there is a one-to-one correlation between certain brain characteristics and gun violence, which is dubious at best, more like ridiculous.

Nothing medical cause there is nothing to cure. The fMRI in this proposal is a mere tool to be used in background checks.

The greater the correlation between mass murderers, mass shootings, and massacres, the more the ones with such brains should not get legal access to guns.

Although, it may be debatable whether they could still have guns but be of service to the majority, like for instance in the military.

Policy does not change law, policy has to operate within the confines of law.

There are bills that pass through and pave the way for new technology to help the majority.

There are no assumptions in that, no modeling of the data at all: total firearm homicides divided by population of the country. That's it.

That is the problem,

The issue is not about the total firearm homicides and the data melt if you divide it by the population because USA is a huge country. The issue is more specific to mass shootings only.

 

[Paleocon]

What was the motive of the Umpqua community college shooter in Roseburg, Oregon?

He was a conservative republican, and was a fan of the IRA and the Nazis. Although its not clear if he was affiliated with any of those groups. Witnesses are claiming he told people to state their religion, and if they said they were Christian, he would shoot them in the head, if not they would only be shot in the leg. He was mixed race half black and half white and was born in the UK. He wrote things online such as:

“Most people will spend hours standing in front of stores just to buy a new iphone ... I used to be like that, always concerned about what clothes I had, rather than whether or not I was happy. But not anymore."

“Since then I have learned the truth that such attachments are falsehoods and will only bring misery.”

“In case anyone’s wondering, I’m not on the side of the suspect, I’m on the side of the officer, and generally don’t agree with the black lives matter protests.”



Shooter who killed 10 revealed as BRITISH 'IRA supporter who bought Nazi gear online' | World | News | Daily Express

Chris Harper Mercer: first details emerge of Oregon college killer | US news | The Guardian
Chris Harper Mercer’s Politics: What You Need to Know | Heavy.com
Who is Chris Harper-Mercer, the man suspected of a deadly shooting in Oregon?

He said he hated organized religion. Ergo, when he claimed to be conservative, he was lying.

 

[dimensionallava]

He said he hated organized religion. Ergo, when he claimed to be conservative, he was lying.

there are many atheist conservatives, ayn rand for one

 

[tech30528]

So it's an interesting thread. I think that the shooter's like for the IRA comes from 'an oppressed people fighting back against a tyrannical occupier. The video showing teens throwing rocks and Molotov Cocktails at their enemy is nothing that wasn't happening 800 years ago.

"Conservatives" are very much the same here as in the UK, I would cite Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, so the shooter seemed to know what his political leaning was. As for the Nazis - uniform control of society through violence. Some admire that kind of thing...

The purchasing of guns by otherwise law abiding citizens who later turn into mass murderers is something that is hard to control. If the killer had no guns available that would facilitate mass murder, what would his other choices have been? A bomb? Perhaps, but guns would not have been involved and guns that facilitate mass murder would not be in question. Having said that, I think that 'a probable solution' is clear.

How do you get there from here?

 

[tech30528]

Perhaps the same rules and laws for getting an abortion should be applied to buying a gun.

It would allow them a database of what brain structure looks like for someone about to commit murder.

 

[Paleocon]

there are many atheist conservatives, ayn rand for one

Ayn Rand was a libertarian, not a conservative. And in any case my claim is a definitional, not an empirical one. A conservative who is against organized religion is just as much of an oxymoron as a conservative who is against organized states.

 

[dimensionallava]

Ayn Rand was a libertarian, not a conservative. And in any case my claim is a definitional, not an empirical one. A conservative who is against organized religion is just as much of an oxymoron as a conservative who is against organized states.

i don't know what definition your using, but its certainly not a "definitional" one

Conservatism as a political and social philosophy promotes retaining traditional social institutions in the context of culture and civilization. Some conservatives seek to preserve things as they are, emphasizing stability and continuity, while others, called reactionaries, oppose modernism and seek a return to "the way things were"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism

 

[Paleocon]

i don't know what definition your using, but its certainly not a "definitional" one




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism

You should really try learning to read.

Organized religion is a traditional social institution, opposing it puts one definitively in the nonconservative camp.

 

[dimensionallava]

You should really try learning to read.

Organized religion is a traditional social institution, opposing it puts one definitively in the nonconservative camp.

I didn't realize religion was the only traditional social institution

 

[Paleocon]

I didn't realize religion was the only traditional social institution

It's not the only one, just a very important one.

 

[dimensionallava]

It's not the only one, just a very important one.

you could also say someone who hates the jews like you do isnt a true conservative

 

[Ancient Herald]

psssst....

The KKK were liebrals.


Carry on.

 

[Paleocon]

you could also say someone who hates the jews like you do isnt a true conservative

You could say that, but given that conservatives have historically been hostile to Jews, it wouldn't make any sense.

P.S. I do not hate anybody, I dislike the Jews.