“Are you serious?” he said. “Now this war will just continue.” (1 Viewer)

[multivita-man]

What, like repeat every single mistake made in the late 1930s?

Trust that the dictator will have "no further territorial demands"?

Like that kind of intelligent?

Because that actually looks pretty ****ing stupid.

Explain how spending $75 billion, which included weaponary, imposing primary and secondary sections, and expanding NATO is analogous to appeasement in Munich.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Explain how spending $75 billion, which included weaponary, imposing primary and secondary sections, and expanding NATO is analogous to appeasement in Munich.

Are you for or against the weaponry being shipped?

 

[multivita-man]

Are you for or against the weaponry being shipped?

I am for it.

Where we disagree is what we think it can ultimately accomplish/achieve. You believe we can recover Ukraine pre-2013 borders. I think that ship has sailed, but I want what's left of Ukraine to preserve itself, and we should support Ukraine to that end.

 

[Hamish Howl]

I am for it.

Where we disagree is what we think it can ultimately accomplish/achieve. You believe we can recover Ukraine pre-2013 borders. I think that ship has sailed, but I want what's left of Ukraine to preserve itself, and we should support Ukraine to that end.

Fair enough. Seems like I owe you an apology. So here it is: My bad. You are not like Anatta and Justoneman.

However, I still feel that if we keep helping the Ukrainians grind the Russians into pink baloney mist, eventually the Russians will run out of logistics capability. Or even the ability to keep their own country stapled together.

 

[multivita-man]

Fair enough. Seems like I owe you an apology. So here it is: My bad. You are not like Anatta and Justoneman.

However, I still feel that if we keep helping the Ukrainians grind the Russians into pink baloney mist, eventually the Russians will run out of logistics capability. Or even the ability to keep their own country stapled together.

No apology needed. I get it - it's online and we don't always know if people are trolling or serious. I appreciate that you allowed me to express some nuance.

 

[ralfy]

Ukraine needs logistical support to defend themselves against Russia.
Weapons are part of that support.

That was caused by red lines crossed:

Bill Clinton’s Role in the Crisis Over Ukraine

The militarization of American foreign policy has evolved over the past thirty years. Ironically, this took place in the wake of the dissolution of the

www.counterpunch.org

That's why the same countries that want to prove support were playing both sides:

Obama administration says Russia could join NATO

From the Associated Press: The Obama administration is not ruling out the possibility of Russian membership in NATO.Assistant Secretary of State Philip

www.atlanticcouncil.org

 

[W_Heisenberg]

i would like for the warhawks

First, I would like to point out that Russia invaded Ukraine. Ukraine did not invade Russia. The use of term "warhawk" is not accurate. What you want to happen is for Ukraine to quit, to surrender, and give up.

to describe how more weapons shortens/turn the war to a Ukraine victory?

I would like the war to be as short as possible, but my primary interest is in seeing Ukraine win, and Ukraine cannot win without more weapons.

I am confused as to why you seem to imply that fewer weapons will increase the likelihood of Ukrainian victory.

 

[Yakshi]

First, I would like to point out that Russia invaded Ukraine. Ukraine did not invade Russia. The use of term "warhawk" is not accurate. What you want to happen is for Ukraine to quit, to surrender, and give up.



I would like the war to be as short as possible, but my primary interest is in seeing Ukraine win, and Ukraine cannot win without more weapons.

I am confused as to why you seem to imply that fewer weapons will increase the likelihood of Ukrainian victory.

I share your confusion. Under putin's russia, I can think of many treaties and international agreements that russia has violated since the 1990s. Conversely, I can't think of any that it has honored.

putin has already said that the Ukrainian identity doesn't exist and that Ukraine constitutes russian land. He is playing poker with an open hand.

Again and again, I believe a chasm exists between the western desire to negotiate, which russia imo interprets as weakness, and the Eastern European view that russia only understands force.

So when I hear someone suggest negotiation with a russia that perpetually violates agreements and has already stated that it will take all of Ukraine, I can only recommend that they pay closer attention to russia's history of treating treaty partners like fools.

 

[Jredbaron96]

putin has already said that the Ukrainian identity doesn't exist and that Ukraine constitutes russian land. He is playing poker with an open hand.

Well that's why that hand is often ignored; the pro-Russian side both in DP, the Far right and the Far left can't accept Putin openly admitting his motivations are ethnic-nationalism and historical irridentism. Accepting that undermines the narrative they have built that Putin was behaving reasonably up until NATO forced him to invade, so they just ignore it.

 

[CaughtInThe]

i would like for the warhawks to describe how more weapons shortens/turn the war to a Ukraine victory?

Frontline Ukrainians Fear New Aid From U.S. Will Be a Disaster

Anatolii Stepanov/AFP via Getty ImagesKHARKIV, Ukraine—After months of infighting on Capitol Hill, President Joe Biden has finally been able to sign off on a huge new $61 billion military aid bill for Ukraine. Delays to the bill, which got bogged down in the Republican-controlled House of...

www.yahoo.com

After its passage last week, some members of the House waved Ukrainian flags while others cheered in celebration that Ukraine will soon receive new weapons ahead of Russia’s expected counteroffensive. Signing it into law at a White House ceremony on Wednesday, Biden promised the arms shipments would begin immediately and hailed what he called “a good day for world peace.”

The reaction here, near the front lines of the war, felt very different.

Oleg sighed when The Daily Beast told him about the events 5,000 miles away in Washington, D.C. “Are you serious?” he said. “Now this war will just continue.”

Oleg is from Saltivka, a part of Kharkiv city that has repeatedly been attacked by Russian missiles. A large majority of residential buildings, businesses, and critically needed infrastructure have been damaged. Oleg said that he is not pro-Russian, and does not want to live under occupation. He has seen some of the worst effects of the war. He has countless friends fighting on the front lines, some of whom have been severely injured or killed, and he’s had to move out of his home. For the most part, Oleg said he just wants the war to be over, but he knows that if Russians soldiers occupy Kharkiv, and discover the large number of friends he has who are fighting for Ukraine, he could be killed. Still, he does not think that the $61 billion in aid will help Ukraine win the war.

“In my mind, and all of my friends, this money doesn’t help Ukraine,” he said. “Our country has too much corruption.”
One man The Daily Beast spoke to, Vladimir 45, a construction worker in Kharkiv, said that the $61 billion will end up benefiting the wrong people. “Only for politicians, their pockets. They buy houses, apartments, and we have friends who are at war,” he said.

Vladimir and his wife, Julia, 39, live with their two children in a small suburban village on the outskirts of Kharkiv. The family hear explosions nearly every day, and their 12-year-old son is constantly scared of the war, and often has panic attacks when Russian rockets zoom past his home. Last week, shrapnel from a shot-down missile pierced Vladimir’s metal fence, and there are crater-sized holes in his backyard from where a rocket landed two years ago. Vladimir and his family have seen some of the worst aspects of the war in Kharkiv, and he said that they are tired of constantly living under the stress of never knowing if they will survive or not.

you seem like the kind of guy (and there are a ton) that would just roll over if our country was attacked.

now, have you always been that way or is that a new thing?

 

[j brown's body]

its also exceedingly stupid to say no negotiations because the Russians cant be trusted.
I can't think of any cease fire to a war where both sides "trust" the other. You set it up so it benefit both sides to maintain a cease fire.. and cease fire violations happen as well.. but it's literally step by step negotiations to peace on term both sides find works for them...lol Realpolitik...

Negotiations are fine, but they must be conducted from a position of strength. The West's commitment to Ukraine helps provide that strength.

Thus, if you support negotiations, you must support our continued aid to Ukraine. Otherwise, all you support is Ukrainian capitulation.

 

[j brown's body]

so much for your "vast majority" claim.. THere is significant opposition to the war in Ukraine for Ukrainians
whom arent displaced as well. Thats what happens when wars linger on. the people see their friends and relations killed, draft dodging becomes a big thimg etc.. Like the OP says "now this war will just continue" becomes a growing mindset

That works both ways.

Russia's war in Ukraine has drained it of labor — it lacks nearly 5 million workers this year, report says

Russia's economy was short nearly 5 million workers this year. Many skilled workers have been drafted into the war in Ukraine or have left the country.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[ralfy]

That works both ways.

Russia's war in Ukraine has drained it of labor — it lacks nearly 5 million workers this year, report says

Russia's economy was short nearly 5 million workers this year. Many skilled workers have been drafted into the war in Ukraine or have left the country.

www.businessinsider.com

That's because it's a war that obviously directly involves Russia. In contrast, the U.S. and NATO can treat this as a proxy war, which should be the case as most of their people don't want to fight.

The catch is that China with many from BRICS and Global South are also becoming critical of the U.S. and NATO, and the West needs them together with Russia for oil, gas, uranium, and even components needed for things like ammunition.