Zimmerman made a threatening move before being struck [W:815]

[Gladiator]

Thats truly an ignorant statement. Huge difference between reaching "into our pockets" and actually pulling out a gun

Taking into account Zim's beligerant actions and manner, putting his hands in his pockets was a continuation of his attempt to intimidate Trayvon. Zim can testify on the stand that he was innocently putting his hands into his pockets. Will the Judge Believe Zim? Not likely. Will Zim lose his Self-Defense hearing, and go to trial?


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[Sheik Yerbuti]

Prove that TM didn't initiate the fight.
oh wait.
you can't.
Nevermind.

Where did I say Trayvon didn't initiate the fight??

What I have said is that I don't know who initiated the fight. It could have been Trayvon ... it could have been Zimmerman.

But Masada claimed Trayvon initiated the fight; so I called him on it since there is no proof which corroborates his claim.

 

[ric27]

Taking into account Zim's beligerant actions and manner, putting his hands in his pockets was a continuation of his attempt to intimidate Trayvon. Zim can testify on the stand that he was innocently putting his hands into his pockets. Will the Judge Believe Zim? Not likely. Will Zim lose his Self-Defense hearing, and go to trial?


//

First, back step a little...

What exactly do you mean by Zim's belligerent actions and manner???

These *so-called belligerent actions and manner*.....are illegal or legal?

 

[ric27]

Oh wait, I didn't say Trayvon didn't initiate the fight. So why are you asking me to prove something I never said.

As opposed to Masada claiming Trayvon did start the fight -- which is something he can't prove.


WTF?? Zimmerman's account doesn't stand simply because he killed the only other witness who knows what actually knows what happened. It's going to be up to a jury to decide if they believe Zimmerman's story. If they don't, they can convict him. And his story has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.

And his story has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.

First...just what are these holes? Detail them

 

[Sheik Yerbuti]

First...just what are these holes? Detail them

Let's start with this one ... In one interview, Zimmerman described the moment when the confrontation began with...

"I was walking back through to where my car was and he jumped out from the bushes." ~ George Zimmerman

But in the reenactment video, he describes the first moment he saw Trayvon up close; and he said Trayvon was coming up the path on the walkway between the two rows of buildings, approaching him where the two walkways intersect ... and there are no bushes there.

There are bushes along the side of the house, but that is not where he said he saw Trayvon as he walked the police through the reenactment.

 

[sharon]

By 7:15 PM on February 26th, 2012 (East Coast Winter Lighting) it would have been DARK. Sunset was at 6:23 PM almost a full hour before the shooting and it was raining and little to no moonlight.
http://www.timeanddate.com/worldcloc...&afl=-11&day=1

 

[What if...?]

No MaggieD, this is a case of self-defense, and we as a society can not let this case end in a conviction.
Everyone should have the right to defend them selves in a situation where they are having their head slammed into the concrete.



I think he was most likely out of line. He approached Zimmerman after doubling back and laying in wait.
That indicates what he intended to confront Zimmerman violently, and do so from a point of advantage.

But lets say you do not believe that, ok?

Once you have subdued someone by knocking them to the ground, you no longer get to claim self-defense when you continue assaulting them by jumping on them and start slamming their head into the concrete.
That is no longer self-defense, but aggravated assault.


You say vigilante, but that can't be because his actions and intent were not one of a vigilante.
So you are just wrong.

---

Exactly. "If"
Her testimony isn't believable at all. I knew that her account was shady to begin with just because of the way we come to it.
But after a recent review or her deposition, it has become obvious that she is embellishing, (or if you wish... straight up lying) and is therefore not believable at all.

I seriously doubt she will be put on the stand, if so, she will be shown to be shredded.

---

:lamo
No they do not.

Ok, lets step back a second.

In your narrative, how does M become aware that Z is out of his truck?

They are separated by a building when Z exited his vehicle.

The whole narrative assumes M laid in wait for someone he last saw in a truck.

How could he know Z would follow on foot? Or what route Z would take?

And what do you base the claim of "coming back" (as opposed to simply stopping) upon?

And how do you explain the time between Z hanging up and the beginning of the fight?

Over a minute to travel a distance covered in 24 seconds in the reenactment.

Honest questions.

 

[sharon]

Ok, lets step back a second.

In your narrative, how does M become aware that Z is out of his truck?

They are separated by a building when Z exited his vehicle.

The whole narrative assumes M laid in wait for someone he last saw in a truck.

How could he know Z would follow on foot? Or what route Z would take?

And what do you base the claim of "coming back" (as opposed to simply stopping) upon?

And how do you explain the time between Z hanging up and the beginning of the fight?

Over a minute to travel a distance covered in 24 seconds in the reenactment.

Honest questions.

Excellent questions..............

The only way to shift accountability to Trayvon is if he is a mind reader.

 

[What if...?]

Ya. I've listened, and let me tell you the most significant pieces of her statement.

1. She claims that Trayvon didn't know Zimmerman exited his car to follow him.
2. According to her, After Martin ran, he said he had lost Zimmerman and simply proceeded to "walk" home.
3. She claims Zimmerman then found Martin again, and she told him to run. But he said "no, I'm not going to run". She believed because Martin was tired. Tired from running around the backside of the condo (which I told you earlier was the way he must of ran). Tired from running a distance of no more than 100 yards?

She makes it out that Zimmerman caught up with Martin, who she says ran around the backside of the building, "to go from the back".

Here's how I can prove that's not what happened. If Martin ran around "from the back" like she claims, and Zimmerman caught up with Martin, like she claims, how did the fight take place on the opposite side of the building?

Have you bothered looking at the map?

If Z caught up with M on one side of the condo, and that is supposedly where the two exchanged comments and the fight started, how is it that the shooting occurred on the other side of the building? Did they fight all the way around the building? No, DeeDee even claims she heard someone saying "get off". She says it was Martin. But 3 other witnesses place Martin on top of Zimmerman. Hmmmm

M would have been approaching the back of the place he was staying at.

 

[Gladiator]

First, back step a little...

What exactly do you mean by Zim's belligerent actions and manner???

These *so-called belligerent actions and manner*.....are illegal or legal?

The totality of Zim's actions, prior to Trayvon punching Zim in the nose, will be evaluated as a totality. See Stanbdard Florida Jury instructions for assaiult, and 3.6, for Stand Your Ground.

Witness 11 describes all male voices as sounding "Beligerant" So that includes Zim. A big deal has been made that Stalking was excused because Zim had a legitimate purpose. Do you think the judge is going to give the jury a stalking excuse instruction?

The Assault instruction will probably fit Zim.

People make fun of Dee Dee's ethnic vernacular, but she is telling the truth, and knows the difference between what she actually heard, and what she is surmising for the meaning of the sounds she heard. The judge will understand Dee Dee and witness 11.

Who thinks this judge will believe Zim, and let him go free after a Self-Defense hearing?



//

 

[sharon]

M would have been approaching the back of the place he was staying at.

The buildings look like this from the front.

This is the grassy alley.

 

[Karl]

[...] By which I mean that I have watched people die with my own eyes several times, and they often move around in their last moments of life or consciousness. Sometimes just a little, sometimes a lot, sometimes they thrash around violently. One occasion involved a car wreck and a teenage boy who had a piece of metal driven completely through his skull and brain. He walked around for about a minute and spoke several times, then suddenly fell unconscious and died, falling at a spot quite some distance from the car in which he had been riding, far from the location where he had suffered his fatal injury. Thus my point that the location and position of the body do not necessarily tell us much, if anything.

[...] If you're going to engage in wild and senseless speculation and ignore the facts, there's no point in discussing this with you.

Physician, heal thyself.

 

[Karl]

Surely you recall that the "MMA" guy retracted, right?

I don't know any "MMA guy". I know at least one eyewitness reported seeing Martin on top of Zimmerman prior to the gunshot. Link to this alleged retraction or it didn't happen. [...]

It happened right here on DP... if you're going to debate an issue, it helps to be current on it (like, this was posted over a month ago, in a thread named "New Report Says Witness Claims Martin Threw Punches MMA Style", oddly enough :2razz: ). In fact, you even had two posts in that thread -- #328 and #1709 . . . . . :

Link to the thread: http://www.debatepolitics.com/zimme...-martin-threw-punches-mma-style-w-1873-a.html

Link to the post (#152): http://www.debatepolitics.com/zimme...hes-mma-style-w-1873-a-16.html#post1060526522

Link to the source: George Zimmerman witnesses: Several George Zimmerman witnesses change their accounts in Trayvon Martin case - Orlando Sentinel​

More from the same Orlando Sentinel link:

Witness 2

[...] She told authorities that she had taken out her contact lenses just before the incident. In her first recorded interview with Sanford police four days after the shooting, she told lead Investigator Chris Serino, "I saw two guys running. Couldn't tell you who was in front, who was behind." She stepped away from her window, and when she looked again, she "saw a fistfight. Just fists. I don't know who was hitting who." A week later, she added a detail when talking again to Serino: During the chase, the two figures had been 10 feet apart.

That all changed when she was reinterviewed March 20 by an FDLE agent. That time, she recalled catching a glimpse of just one running figure, she told FDLE Investigator John Batchelor, and she heard the person more than saw him. "I couldn't tell you if it was a man, a woman, a kid, black or white. I couldn't tell you because it was dark and because I didn't have my contacts on or glasses. … I just know I saw a person out there."

 

[Airborne375]

I saw something about this on the news. Someone claimed Trevon was throwing MMA style punches. If it turns out he knew anything about grappling, anything more than a passing interest. Z's going to walk.

 

[505]

I saw something about this on the news. Someone claimed Trevon was throwing MMA style punches. If it turns out he knew anything about grappling, anything more than a passing interest. Z's going to walk.

He had subscriptions to street fighting channels on his youtube account.

 

[Airborne375]

He had subscriptions to street fighting channels on his youtube account.

I studied Jui-Jitsu (Japanese) for several years in High School, I am not claiming to be an expert or anything.

If someone knowledgeable in grappling brings the fight to the ground against someone not knowledgeable about ground fighting. The fight is effectively over. GZ is fortunate to have been able to draw his weapon considering the facial and back of head wounds he received. The only thing that can blow GZ's case is GZ himself. He needs to exercise his 5th amendment protections pronto.

 

[505]

I studied Jui-Jitsu (Japanese) for several years in High School, I am not claiming to be an expert or anything.

If someone knowledgeable in grappling brings the fight to the ground against someone not knowledgeable about ground fighting. The fight is effectively over. GZ is fortunate to have been able to draw his weapon considering the facial and back of head wounds he received. The only thing that can blow GZ's case is GZ himself. He needs to exercise his 5th amendment protections pronto.

You must be new here... bringing all that logic and reasonable thought into Z/M threads?... pssssh. That's not how it's done. You're supposed to say that GZ should've waited until he had brain damage to take the shot. Makes way more sense.

 

[Airborne375]

Well I'm new here. I'm using these Z/M threads as an easy way to score early points.

 

[505]

Well I'm new here. I'm using these Z/M threads as an easy way to score early points.

Infraction points?... you've come to the right place then!

 

[Gladiator]

I saw something about this on the news. Someone claimed Trevon was throwing MMA style punches. If it turns out he knew anything about grappling, anything more than a passing interest. Z's going to walk.

Zim's problem is that Zim's actions may have constituted threatening Assault, before Trayvon punched Zim in the nose, or threw any other punches. If

1. Zim's prejudicial comments to the dispatcher,

2. Zim getting out of his vehicle to follow Trayvon, after having followed Trayvon on the street in his car,

3. Zim causing Trayvon to be afraid, and run away from Zim,

4. then Zim pursuing Trayvon to 100 feet of Trayvon's front door,

5. Then Zim refusing to answer Trayvon's legitimate question, "Why are you following me for?"

6. then Zim speaking in a belligerent attitude toward Trayvon, "What are YOU doing here?"

7. Then reaching in his pocket, apparently still with an aggressive, belligerant expression on his face, continuing from his tone of voice, when Zim was speaking beligerently.

8. Will the jury find Zim's claim that Zim behaved in a peaceable manner in his inital exchange of words with Trayvon, as indicating guilt, because Zim's claim is contradicted by at least two witneses?

Did Trayvon have a reasonable fear of being attacked by Zim with injurious possibilities?

If the jury finds that Zim's actions constitute assault on Trayvon, then Zim had a duty to retreat, and stand your ground does not allow the use of deadly force. Zim can only match with reasonable force if Zim committed Assault first.

See Forida jury instructions on assault





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[505]

See Forida jury instructions on assault





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I think you should take your own advice here. You are wrong.

*IF* he initiated the physical conflict, but then attempted to retreat and was pinned to the ground he can still use deadly force in self defense.

 

[sharon]

I saw something about this on the news. Someone claimed Trevon was throwing MMA style punches. If it turns out he knew anything about grappling, anything more than a passing interest. Z's going to walk.

The witness changed his story about MMA punches.. Trayvon had no training in "grappling".. With the medical evidence and George's injuries its unlikely that Trayvon continued to punch GZ.. More likely he just had GZ pinned.

The whole business about Trayvon doubling back and waiting in ambush with his cell phone is so ridiculous that it should be embarrassing.. Trayvon never knew that George had gotten out of his truck.

Some lies are comical.

 

[sharon]

I think you should take your own advice here. You are wrong.

*IF* he initiated the physical conflict, but then attempted to retreat and was pinned to the ground he can still use deadly force in self defense.

According to the Florida Law, you can assault somone without touching them. George put Trayvon in fear of his life and safety and failed to respond to a reasonable and adult question.

 

[505]

Trayvon never knew that George had gotten out of his truck.

Some lies are comical.

I agree completely that your lies are comical. NLN CLEARLY knew that GZ had gotten out of his truck... he told his girlfriend that the guy was now following him. You should really double check what you post before hitting submit... your lies and inaccuracies are getting out of hand.

 

[505]

According to the Florida Law, you can assault somone without touching them. George put Trayvon in fear of his life and safety and failed to respond to a reasonable and adult question.

And that doesn't change what you quoted from my post one single little bit. Why can't you stick to the relevant points?

Oh yeah... because the relevant points don't support your side and you have to either make **** up or bring up **** that doesn't matter at all.