Zelenskyy urges world to heed Ukraine’s ‘terror’ attack warning

[Irredentist]

Zelensky has said peace requires Putin leave Ukraine. That's the only acceptable outcome.

How much of Poland should Putin be allowed to take?

But Putin isn't going to leave. So that demand is a non starter. I prefer a negotiating position that is more grounded in reality.

 

[Bok Tuklo]

Like America did in Korea then?

Leaving aside the United States is not a party to this conflict outside of support and is not actively engaged in combate with Russia, I don't think anyone would have a problem with there being a demilitarized zone between Russia and Ukraine. Russia has to leave first.

 

[Irredentist]

Oh. They should ask nicely, then?

Yes, and they should offer something in exchange, like territory.

 

[OrphanSlug]

But Putin isn't going to leave. So that demand is a non starter. I prefer a negotiating position that is more grounded in reality.

But you cannot, or will not, articulate what you think is even plausible here. Moreover, you are ignoring Putin's character assuming he will all of a sudden negotiate.

 

[Bok Tuklo]

But Putin isn't going to leave.

So the only negotiation can be Ukraine's surrender.

You really are talking in circles.

 

[Irredentist]

Then just the tip?

Your neighbor starts camping in your back yard 24/7, gonna be ok with you?

I don't see why not.

 

[Rexedgar]

Someone is arguing to justify their user name a little too hard and weak in the details portion.

 

[Rexedgar]

I don't see why not.

I mean it was part of his yard before you bought it, right?

 

[VySky]

Russia has to leave first.

Not really.
- All troop movements stop. Cease fire.
- DMZ established
-Troops advance or withdraw to DMZ established.

 

[Irredentist]

I mean it was part of his yard before you bought it, right?

I don't own the yard, it's a rental.

 

[Michael Cole]

But Putin isn't going to leave.

Then he needs to be pushed out.

So that demand is a non starter. I prefer a negotiating position that is more grounded in reality.

I'll let Zelensky know of your preferences.

 

[Irredentist]

So the only negotiation can be Ukraine's surrender.

You really are talking in circles.

A negotiated peace is not a surrender. I've explained this several times now.

 

[Geoist]

Then maybe they should try offering Putin something that he wants, in exchange for peace. That's usually how negotiations work. You can't just expect to be given everything that you want for free.

We've seen that script before. The main characters in the story were Neville Chamberlain and Adolf Hitler.

 

[Irredentist]

Then he needs to be pushed out.

Good luck with that.

I'll let Zelensky know of your preferences.

Please do. I'd prefer not to let more people die pointlessly.

 

[Bok Tuklo]

Not really.

True. They have to be pushed out first, like the North Koreans. They are not leaving.

 

[Irredentist]

We've seen that script before. The main characters in the story were Neville Chamberlain and Adolf Hitler.

Armchair historians who criticize Neville Chamberlain probably would have made the same decisions, were they in his shoes.

 

[Geoist]

That's a false binary. A negotiated peace is not a surrender. I do not propose that Ukraine lay down their arms. I propose that they negotiate realistically.

And if the pre-negotiated conditions set by Russia are unacceptable...?

 

[Bok Tuklo]

Good luck with that.

Please do. I'd prefer not to let more people die pointlessly.

You think Russia would stop killing people pointlessly?

 

[Geoist]

Armchair historians who criticize Neville Chamberlain probably would have made the same decisions, were they in his shoes.

Yes, we have the benefit of hindsight. Something you don't seem to want to take advantage of.

 

[Irredentist]

And if the pre-negotiated conditions set by Russia are unacceptable...?

Then the war continues, until both sides are willing to accept something less than what they originally wanted.

 

[Michael Cole]

Good luck with that.

I trust the Ukrainian people know what they're doing. It's their country, not mine. Wish them good luck.

Please do. I'd prefer not to let more people die pointlessly.

Nobody in Ukraine knows you exist, much less cares what you think. Funny how you think you're "letting" something happen. Lol.

 

[Geoist]

Then the war continues, until both sides are willing to accept something less than what they originally wanted.

The war continues until Russia cuts its losses and leaves.

 

[Bok Tuklo]

The war continues until Russia cuts its losses and leaves.

Or Ukraine surrenders.

 

[Irredentist]

The war continues until Russia cuts its losses and leaves.

Except they're not going to leave. So you can either negotiate peace now, or wait a couple more years so more people can die first.

 

[ElChupacabra]

But Putin isn't going to leave. So that demand is a non starter. I prefer a negotiating position that is more grounded in reality.

That's the variable here, and what Ukrainians are trying to do is make it difficult for Russia to remain. We've seen this dynamic in other recent conflicts (Vietnam, Afghanistan) where the cost of trying to maintain the war becomes too high for the invading force, and ultimately they leave. The thing here is the same applies for the efforts to support Ukraine, since that's costly for the allies doing it. Where the negotiation aspect is concerning is Putin's already taken Ukrainian land before, and there's little doubt he would do so again even with an agreement in place.

Putin's attempt here was to bring Ukraine back into Russia's sphere of influence, which essentially means Ukrainians who don't want that have no choice but to surrender to his will. He didn't march into the Donbas, he launched a full invasion on multiple fronts in an attempt to usurp the existing government; there should be no reward for that kind of action, especially when there are no assurances it ends there. If you remember, Putin doesn't even acknowledge Ukraine as being a separate nation from Russia, so I put little stock in him not invading again even if Ukraine agreed to surrender some territory. This is about more than just territory based on what he's publicly expressed and made pretty clear.