Zelensky Says Ukraine ‘Will Seek Nuclear Weapons’ if It Cannot Join NATO

[slick]

If you two love Russia so much, why are you still here instead of there?

Do you always post such silliness?

Someone actually posted 'It was a Russian invasion that Crimea witnessed.' with sincerity & I called him on it -
I'm not Russian or Ukrainian & i never travelled to those two god forsaken countries & never intend to do so.
Do you know how many Ukies were killed in that phony invasion - exactly zero.

When was the last time an invasion occurred when no one was killed by the invading force - it hasn't happened
since Hitler border hopped into Austria

Berezovsky commander of the Ukrainian Navy defected to the new
Russian-supported Crimean authorities and took an "oath of allegiance to the people of Crimea.

As Aksyonov, the pro-Russian politician elected by Crimea's regional parliament as local prime minister.
announced he had given orders to Ukrainian naval forces on the peninsula
to disregard any orders from the "self-proclaimed" authorities in Kiev.

That Sunday, he said, would go down in history as the birthday of the "navy of the autonomous republic of Crimea"

Not a bullet was fired! That doesn't sound like an invasion to me; or infact anyone aware of what transpired!

 

[Questerr]

Wow. Can you get any more simplistic, and still be wrong? Ukraine was indiscriminately shelling the eastern provinces for years before Russia invaded. You've forgotten that, haven't you? Do you even remember the airliner that was shot down?

The same eastern provinces that Russia flooded with their special forces and armed separatists in for years?

 

[slick]

The same eastern provinces that Russia flooded with their special forces and armed separatists in for years?

Eastern Ukraine
Percentage of support for Russian leaning candidate Yanukovich in
the last legitimate election when Ukraine was still whole 2010:

Eastern Ukraine
Crimea--- 78.25
Donetsk--90.44
Luhansk- 88.96

Even when they were part of Ukraine the 2nd, 6th & 7th most populated provinces voted for Yanukovich the
Russian leaning candidate over the EU leaning candidate at that time Tymoshenko!

Ukraine is so divided That I'm surprised this civil war didn't happen years before 2014 - russian ethnics & Russian speakers in the east
vying for power against the Liev Galacian, Polish faction favoring closer ties to the EU in western Ukraine. That's a toxic cocktail!
Humans are highly ethnocentric with a bias towards familiarity. That is why countries have borders.
to keeps un-familiar people out -and protect & insure a workiable society.
This is what it's all about. The upheaval of a harmonious society that's been gaining traction in the last 20 years.
The Dneiper would be a good divide!

 

[Questerr]

Eastern Ukraine
Percentage of support for Russian leaning candidate Yanukovich in
the last legitimate election when Ukraine was still whole 2010:

Eastern Ukraine
Crimea--- 78.25
Donetsk--90.44
Luhansk- 88.96

Even when they were part of Ukraine the 2nd, 6th & 7th most populated provinces voted for Yanukovich the
Russian leaning candidate over the EU leaning candidate at that time Tymoshenko!

Ukraine is so divided That I'm surprised this civil war didn't happen years before 2014 - russian ethnics & Russian speakers in the east
vying for power against the Liev Galacian, Polish faction favoring closer ties to the EU in western Ukraine. That's a toxic cocktail!
Humans are highly ethnocentric with a bias towards familiarity. That is why countries have borders.
to keeps un-familiar people out -and protect & insure a workiable society.
This is what it's all about. The upheaval of a harmonious society that's been gaining traction in the last 20 years.
The Dneiper would be a good divide!

Indeed. Crimea is west of the Dneiper, so Russia should return that to Ukraine. Agreed?

 

[Beruit 1978]

Indeed. Crimea is west of the Dneiper, so Russia should return that to Ukraine. Agreed?

Crimea was never Ukraine, until some fathead dictator said it was Ukraine. He ran off the Tartars, and replaced them with Russians, then called it Ukraine.

Ethnicity aside, Crimea is the only "warm water" naval port Russia has ever owned. The US owns dozens of warm water ports, but won't give up Guantanamo. Who in their right mind would ever have thought that Russia would give up Crimea without a fight? Ukraine thought they would take that naval base, and just give it to NATO?

The world is full of stupid f*ck*rs, and Ukraine has it's share of them. Not to mention the US and NATO.

Try looking at the world from the Russian point of view, for once. Oh, sorry, that would require studying some history. It wouldn't require a helluva lot of history though. Only go back to the lead up to the Second World War, then, really dive into how that war affected Russia.

Arrogant Americans didn't see freshly orphaned children starving to death in our nation's capitol. We didn't find it necessary to send our young women out on suicide missions to head off an enemy attack on our cities.

Go study that war time history, then understand that WW2 wasn't the first foreign invasion of Russia. They have good historical reason for their demands.

Oh yeah - geography. Crimea is west of the Dneiper? LOL

 

[Questerr]

Crimea was never Ukraine, until some fathead dictator said it was Ukraine. He ran off the Tartars, and replaced them with Russians, then called it Ukraine.

Ethnicity aside, Crimea is the only "warm water" naval port Russia has ever owned. The US owns dozens of warm water ports, but won't give up Guantanamo. Who in their right mind would ever have thought that Russia would give up Crimea without a fight? Ukraine thought they would take that naval base, and just give it to NATO?

The world is full of stupid f*ck*rs, and Ukraine has it's share of them. Not to mention the US and NATO.

Try looking at the world from the Russian point of view, for once. Oh, sorry, that would require studying some history. It wouldn't require a helluva lot of history though. Only go back to the lead up to the Second World War, then, really dive into how that war affected Russia.

Arrogant Americans didn't see freshly orphaned children starving to death in our nation's capitol. We didn't find it necessary to send our young women out on suicide missions to head off an enemy attack on our cities.

Go study that war time history, then understand that WW2 wasn't the first foreign invasion of Russia. They have good historical reason for their demands.

Oh yeah - geography. Crimea is west of the Dneiper? LOL

I confused the Dnieper with the Donets. The idea of Ukraine giving up half their country, including large areas with the Ukrainian majority is absurd.

 

[slick]

Indeed. Crimea is west of the Dneiper, so Russia should return that to Ukraine. Agreed?

Nice try, you had me checking out the map. It's close but even where the Dneiper reaches the Black Sea every square mile
in the Crimean peninsula is located EAST of the river which divides Ukraine.

 

[Questerr]

Nice try, you had me checking out the map. It's close but even where the Dneiper reaches the Black Sea every square mile
in the Crimean peninsula is located EAST of the river which divides Ukraine.

Yeah, I confused the Donets and the Dnieper. It’s insane to think Ukraine should give up half their country including major Ukrainian majority areas.

 

[Beruit 1978]

I confused the Dnieper with the Donets. The idea of Ukraine giving up half their country, including large areas with the Ukrainian majority is absurd.

The idea is no more absurd, than the idea that Russia would stand idly by while Ukraine invited NATO to set up shop on Russia's border.

 

[Luce]

The idea is no more absurd, than the idea that Russia would stand idly by while Ukraine invited NATO to set up shop on Russia's border.

So what you're saying is that Russia gets to make the foreign policy decisions for its neighbors.

 

[Luce]

Crimea was never Ukraine, until some fathead dictator said it was Ukraine. He ran off the Tartars, and replaced them with Russians, then called it Ukraine.

Ethnicity aside, Crimea is the only "warm water" naval port Russia has ever owned. The US owns dozens of warm water ports, but won't give up Guantanamo. Who in their right mind would ever have thought that Russia would give up Crimea without a fight? Ukraine thought they would take that naval base, and just give it to NATO?

The base was under lease, same as our base in Cuba, and was never threatened.

 

[iguanaman]

'Yes Putin invaded Crimea and western Ukraine in 2014. We all know that'
Nice story -

I don't even think you know in the last Ukraine election when Ukraine was still whole - the 2 Donbass Oblasts voted for the Russian leaning candidate Yanukovich 90% to 10% for the woman EU leaning candidate - 73% of Crimean's also supported Yanukovich.
If there was no overthrow of the elected government, there would have been no establishment of de facto independent states in Donetsk and Luhansk. Because of the Ukranian Nationalist overthrow of Yanukovich the entire Ukraine navy had “defected” in the Crimea region.
Russia didn't fire a single shot to regain control of Crimea. Crimea is 80% Russian ethnics!
The head of Ukraine's navy “defected” the Crimea region, pledging allegiance to its pro-Russian leader Sergiy Aksyonov and surrendering the country's Sevastopol headquarters along with his 16,000 troops! It was just ten days after Yanucovich fled.
That defection ended forever the Soviet era mistake of gifting Crimea to Ukraine.
What did you expect Russia to do after that amazing incident. Of course Russia
accepted the Ukraine surrender & Crimea came back where it belonged without a shot being fired.
Ukraine launched a treason case against its head of navy, Denis Berezovsky, after he surrendered his headquarters at the port of Sevastopol!. How did that work out.

But your take was:
It wasn't a "rebellion" in Crimea. It was a RUSSIAN land grab.

All your other points were only slightly less laughable but I'll leave those alone
for now!

Taking over the Crimean Oblast was not an invasion. Crimea was the home port of the Ukraine Navy & the Ukraine Navy defected.

There was a singular reason for these historic events:

It was the eternal call of ETHNONATIONALISM that Crimea was called upon & answered.

LOL Yes they voted at the point of Russian army rifles. Those referendums were deemed not valid by international watchdogs. Hitler used the same excuse when he invaded Poland with Russia's help and started WWII.

So-Called Referenda during Armed Conflict in Ukraine ‘Illegal’, Not Expression of Popular Will, United Nations Political Affairs Chief Tells Security Council​

The so-called “referenda” conducted by de facto authorities in the Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions of Ukraine have been held during active armed conflict in the country and cannot be called a genuine expression of the popular will, the United Nations senior political and peacebuilding official told the Security Council today, as members condemned the Russian Federation’s “sham referenda”, while others called for a return to peace talks.

“Unilateral actions aimed to provide a veneer of legitimacy to the attempted acquisition by force by one State of another State’s territory, while claiming to represent the will of the people, cannot be regarded as legal under international law,” Rosemary DiCarlo, Under-Secretary-General for Political and Peacebuilding Affairs emphasized. She added that the exercises, which began on 23 September, have been held during active armed conflict, in areas under Russian control and outside Ukraine’s legal and constitutional framework.

“The United Nations remains fully committed to the sovereignty, unity, independence and territorial integrity of Ukraine,” she underscored. As the occupying Power, the Russian Federation is obliged under international humanitarian law to respect the laws of Ukraine in the administration of occupied territories. She warned that recent developments, including heavy fighting, escalating military operations, human rights violations and attacks in the vicinity of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, point to more death and destruction. Member States must do all they can to end the war and ensure lasting peace.

https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc15039.doc.htm

 

[Questerr]

The idea is no more absurd, than the idea that Russia would stand idly by while Ukraine invited NATO to set up shop on Russia's border.

Russia already bordered NATO in the Baltic States and this war cause their border with NATO to triple by adding in Finland.

 

[slick]

LOL Yes they voted at the point of Russian army rifles. Those referendums were deemed not valid by international watchdogs. Hitler used the same excuse when he invaded Poland with Russia's help and started WWII.

So-Called Referenda during Armed Conflict in Ukraine ‘Illegal’, Not Expression of Popular Will, United Nations Political Affairs Chief Tells Security Council​

The so-called “referenda” conducted by de facto authorities in the Donetsk, Luhansk, Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions of Ukraine have been held during active armed conflict in the country and cannot be called a genuine expression of the popular will, the United Nations senior political and peacebuilding official told the Security Council today, as members condemned the Russian Federation’s “sham referenda”, while others called for a return to peace talks.

“Unilateral actions aimed to provide a veneer of legitimacy to the attempted acquisition by force by one State of another State’s territory, while claiming to represent the will of the people, cannot be regarded as legal under

international law,” Rosemary DiCarlo, Under-Secretary-General for Political and Peacebuilding Affairs emphasized. She added that the exercises, which began on 23 September, have been held during active armed conflict, in areas under Russian control and outside Ukraine’s legal and constitutional framework.

“The United Nations remains fully committed to the sovereignty, unity, independence and territorial integrity of Ukraine,” she underscored. As the occupying Power, the Russian Federation is obliged under international humanitarian law to respect the laws of Ukraine in the administration of occupied territories. She warned that recent developments, including heavy fighting, escalating military operations, human rights violations and attacks in the vicinity of the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, point to more death and destruction. Member States must do all they can to end the war and ensure lasting peace.

https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc15039.doc.htm

https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc15039.doc.htm
Try to get with it & realize what I wrote! I was referring to the last legitimate Ukraine election of 2010 when Ukraine was still a whole country & the last:

legitimate election when the entire Donbass & Crimea participated. All three breakaway provinces voted for Yanukovich the Russian leaning candidate by super landslide proportions 90% in the Dobass region & 78% in Crimea which gave Yanu the victory by 3.5 solid points over the EU leading candidate.

Jimmy Catrer himself oversaw the election and called it legitimate. Election data see below!!!!!!

 

[iguanaman]

Yanukovych lied to Ukrainians about his intentions with the EU in order to get elected. That caused 100's of 1000's if Ukrainians to protest and he fled to Moscow. That was the start of Ukrainian independence from Russia,

 

[Rich2018]

Oh well, if you got to do then do what you got to do.

Meanwhile, I say "HELL NO!" to allowing Ukraine to join NATO.

Of course not now, as to allow the Ukraine into NATO would be to accept WWIII

But why not after the Russia-Ukraine war is over ?

Does anyone want to get the USA into an active war with Russia?!?

No

No-one in any NATO countries that is.

 

[coyote505]

Wow. Can you get any more simplistic, and still be wrong? Ukraine was indiscriminately shelling the eastern provinces for years before Russia invaded. You've forgotten that, haven't you? Do you even remember the airliner that was shot down?

As I recall, it was shot down with Russian missiles, fired by Russian allies.

 

[Bighorn66]

Russia is the most corrupt nation in europe and Ukraine has said no to their corruption and then Russia invaded them. The Ukrainians are committed to democracy and to being a member of the EU and NATO.

See spot. See spot run.

 

[slick]

Yanukovych lied to Ukrainians about his intentions with the EU in order to get elected. That caused 100's of 1000's if Ukrainians to protest and he fled to Moscow. That was the start of Ukrainian independence from Russia,

Hey, believe what you want.

The Ukrainian general staff is probably amazed how much they can convince pedestrian minded people of things that aren’t true.

It is difficult to evaluate Ukie history when it has become such a battleground
between Orangists and Regionists and when critical thinking has to take a
back seat against the background noise of strange, Ukrainian polemics. But this is
for certain, regional differences and an uncomfortable neighborhoods are going to be
with Ukraine for a long, long time.

 

[iguanaman]

Hey, believe what you want.

The Ukrainian general staff is probably amazed how much they can convince pedestrian minded people of things that aren’t true.

It is difficult to evaluate Ukie history when it has become such a battleground
between Orangists and Regionists and when critical thinking has to take a
back seat against the background noise of strange, Ukrainian polemics. But this is
for certain, regional differences and an uncomfortable neighborhoods are going to be
with Ukraine for a long, long time.

What is simple to determine is that Putin has had his sights on Ukraine for a while now and has tried many different ways to get what he wants. He is persistent little SOB I'll give him that. His downfall is the Ukraine is even more persistent and will fight to the last man to get Russia out.

 

[sanman]

What is simple to determine is that Putin has had his sights on Ukraine for a while now and has tried many different ways to get what he wants. He is persistent little SOB I'll give him that. His downfall is the Ukraine is even more persistent and will fight to the last man to get Russia out.

Nah, I don't agree. You're sounding like the NeoCons whose politics you've now embraced.
Your NeoCons used to say the same thing about Saddam -- "He's had his eye for awhile on invading the entire Middle East"

 

[iguanaman]

Nah, I don't agree. You're sounding like the NeoCons whose politics you've now embraced.
Your NeoCons used to say the same thing about Saddam -- "He's had his eye for awhile on invading the entire Middle East"

LOL Yea someday soon Vladimir Putin will be nothing but a 2 bit dictator like Saddam but right now he has been threatening half the world and is in control of more nukes than us too. Saddam should have been taken out when we freed Kuwait. Violations of international borders is a red line and Putin knows this. Surely you can see why we enforce that rule mercilessly. You can starve you own people to death, spend all the countries money for yourself along with just about any other abomination we look the other way about yearly. But invade another sovereign nation and we will come down on you hard. Try to commit genocide of entire culture and wipe them off the map and we will hound you until we get you.

 

[slick]

Nah, I don't agree. You're sounding like the NeoCons whose politics you've now embraced.
Your NeoCons used to say the same thing about Saddam -- "He's had his eye for awhile on invading the entire Middle East"

When talking about Neocon nut jobs look no further than Victoria Nuland!!

Nuland, her husband Robert Kagan
and their neocon cronies succeeded in sending U.S.-Russian relations into a
dangerous downward spiral from which they may never recover
.
She is a disgrace to everything real diplomacy stands for, and a horrible example to women
who want to become diplomats.She still hasn't recovered after Putin slapped her on the face
with Crimea changing hands quicker that one can say peninsula.

Is there anyone who has been more directly involved in worldwide death than Nuland? She needs to be deported.

That’s the type of face one makes when they're entire career is judged as a failure.
And the most severe sanction of all is her creepy photo. That face would stop a clock.

 

[Atomic Kid]

negotiations ain't "appeasement".. take your own advice and read a dictionary

Sometimes they are. Read a history book sometime. Look up Neville Chamberlain.

 

[iguanaman]

When talking about Neocon nut jobs look no further than Victoria Nuland!!

Nuland, her husband Robert Kagan
and their neocon cronies succeeded in sending U.S.-Russian relations into a
dangerous downward spiral from which they may never recover
.
She is a disgrace to everything real diplomacy stands for, and a horrible example to women
who want to become diplomats.She still hasn't recovered after Putin slapped her on the face
with Crimea changing hands quicker that one can say peninsula.

Is there anyone who has been more directly involved in worldwide death than Nuland? She needs to be deported.

That’s the type of face one makes when they're entire career is judged as a failure.
And the most severe sanction of all is her creepy photo. That face would stop a clock.

Ukraine is fighting for their OWN independence from Russia and have maimed or killed over 10,000 Russians in the past 4 days. No nation could do what Ukraine is doing without the will of the people. Russia has forced them to eliminate over 600,000 Russian invaders in the course of this war. That is a lot of killing. Granted most of it is done with drones and artillery but still.....