You can ban handguns without violating the 2nd Amendment

[soylentgreen]

accidental gun deaths are going down constantly

Link please.

 

[RF667799]

No a gun within easy reach is accessible. However that is a lie in this case as a gun kept as safety demands is also accessible. To be precise here what is being asked is not if the gun is accessible but if the gun is within easy reach.

We're talking in the context of Lursa and her gun considering the personal defense question. If her gun is in easy reach, it is accessible. If she leaves it on a table and exits to the garden, it is unattended and neither in easy reach or accessible within this context.

 

[TurtleDude]

Link please.

Gun Deaths in America, 2022 - Injury Facts

Gun deaths from preventable, intentional, and undetermined causes totaled 48,204 in 2022, a decrease of 1% from 2021.

injuryfacts.nsc.org

However, from 1999 to 2019, preventable gun-related deaths have decreased 41%, from 824 to 486 deaths. Visit the data details tab to explore some of these trends in depth.

 

[soylentgreen]

Your argument requires though, that safety is a strictly binary concept. That something is either safe or not safe. You completely disregard the idea of something being sufficiently safe according to circumstance and considered judgment.

A loaded gun left within my gun safe? Loaded, inaccessible, unattended. Safe or not safe?

What of a loaded gun in a holster on my person? Loaded, accessible, attended. Safe or not safe?

The loaded gun within easy reach? Also loaded, accessible, attended. Safe or not safe?

No what I am doing is making the claim that safety rules are not subjective, they are there for a reason. What we have here is people deciding that there are circumstances that allow them to ignore those rules. Either they are just arrogant enough to assume they are to good for an accident to occur or they are relying on the fear of something (crime, rape) being prevalent enough to ignore safety. And then they contradict that idea by also claiming that many gun owners have reduced crime. An poor argument by association but one they make anyway.

Not safe. Because you are assuming that you are accident proof by doing so.

Why would you carry an unloaded gun with you. Please tell me you do not think waiving an unloaded gun in someones face is a safe thing to do.

I have gone to great trouble to write every time that the problem is an loaded gun unattended and unsecured. As for whether this is safe would depend. Can we change the scenario as you seem to want to do to if the gun is attended by a drunken idiot who thinks it funny to point his gun out of a moving car at people passing by?

 

[soylentgreen]

Gun Deaths in America, 2022 - Injury Facts

Gun deaths from preventable, intentional, and undetermined causes totaled 48,204 in 2022, a decrease of 1% from 2021.

injuryfacts.nsc.org

However, from 1999 to 2019, preventable gun-related deaths have decreased 41%, from 824 to 486 deaths. Visit the data details tab to explore some of these trends in depth.

Preventable or accidental gun-related deaths increased 6% in 2019. However, from 1999 to 2019, preventable gun-related deaths have decreased 41%, from 824 to 486 deaths

So from a decreased number they are again rising. Good link, proves nothing, just like you always do.

 

[soylentgreen]

We're talking in the context of Lursa and her gun considering the personal defense question. If her gun is in easy reach, it is accessible. If she leaves it on a table and exits to the garden, it is unattended and neither in easy reach or accessible within this context.

No we are not she is trying to make it personal but fails even at that. What she is doing is not a safety recommendation. She is not being safe. She does not get special pleading privilage just because she has made it personal. The argument is if leaving a loaded gun unattended is a safety rule. It is not.

 

[RF667799]

No what I am doing is making the claim that safety rules are not subjective, they are there for a reason. What we have here is people deciding that there are circumstances that allow them to ignore those rules. Either they are just arrogant enough to assume they are to good for an accident to occur or they are relying on the fear of something (crime, rape) being prevalent enough to ignore safety. And then they contradict that idea by also claiming that many gun owners have reduced crime. An poor argument by association but one they make anyway.

Not safe. Because you are assuming that you are accident proof by doing so.

Why would you carry an unloaded gun with you. Please tell me you do not think waiving an unloaded gun in someones face is a safe thing to do.

I have gone to great trouble to write every time that the problem is an loaded gun unattended and unsecured. As for whether this is safe would depend. Can we change the scenario as you seem to want to do to if the gun is attended by a drunken idiot who thinks it funny to point his gun out of a moving car at people passing by?

I have asked several times for you to quote someone who has argued that it is categorically safe to leave a loaded gun unsecured and unattended. Point me to this person who claims that it is an entirely safe practice to leave his .243 Winchester leaning against the lamp post down on the corner with a full magazine and round chambered. I will join you in castigating that miscreant.

Now....I make no claim to being "accident proof". I don't assume I am. So why is my loaded gun that I left in my gun safe, categorically "not safe"? Saying the reason is because of an assumption of mine doesn't support your "not safe" determination. Because I deny that is an assumption of mine, you see.

You didn't answer my other two questions.

 

[smallvoice]

Because it amuses me to make you look foolish.

The only one that has been made to look foolish is you. You have no standing to argue whatever case you claim, so you are merely banging your gums.

 

[RF667799]

No we are not she is trying to make it personal but fails even at that. What she is doing is not a safety recommendation. She is not being safe. She does not get special pleading privilage just because she has made it personal. The argument is if leaving a loaded gun unattended is a safety rule. It is not.

She noted her gun is for her personal defense. How the hell is it effective for that if it is unattended? Did she not say "within easy reach"?

What would be your recommendation for the condition she should keep her personal defense gun?

 

[Lursa]

So I take it the complaint turtle makes of me stands for you too. Wonder what his point was.

I wonder how many people would still be alive if the gun that killed them had been safely unloaded instead of being armed and ready to fire.

You wonder a lot, but not about the woman I presented, raped in her nice condo on the golf course. I see you post again and again and 100% ignore her and the thousands like her. Just like now...avoidance, bobbing and weaving. You CANT answer anything directly.

Let me know when you have an answer: You have not once managed to explain how my gun is unsafe for anyone. (LOL I can...it's unsafe for someone who breaks in to attack me...see? Apparently you couldnt even break free of your rigid biases to come up with that.) OTOH, that's the whole point...which you choose to deny.

 

[Rich2018]

I find it amusing that they argue both that crime is such a possibility that a gun needs to kept in an unsafe way in order to deal with that crime and then argue that crime has significantly reduced because of gun ownership.

Of all the good reasons to own a gun this crowd concentrates on the most stupidest of reasons for having one.

It's their catch 22:

If instances of gun crime go down, they say there's no need to seize their guns (a daily mass shooting doesn't count)
If instances go up, they say all the more need for them to keep their guns.

 

[RF667799]

It's their catch 22:

If instances of gun crime go down, they say there's no need to seize their guns (a daily mass shooting doesn't count)
If instances go up, they say all the more need for them to keep their guns.

And your position is that if gun crime goes up, guns need to be seized.

And if gun crime goes down, guns still need to be seized.

*Subject to idiotic exemptions.

 

[soylentgreen]

I have asked several times for you to quote someone who has argued that it is categorically safe to leave a loaded gun unsecured and unattended. Point me to this person who claims that it is an entirely safe practice to leave his .243 Winchester leaning against the lamp post down on the corner with a full magazine and round chambered. I will join you in castigating that miscreant.

Now....I make no claim to being "accident proof". I don't assume I am. So why is my loaded gun that I left in my gun safe, categorically "not safe"? Saying the reason is because of an assumption of mine doesn't support your "not safe" determination. Because I deny that is an assumption of mine, you see.

You didn't answer my other two questions.

And I have repeatedly pointed out that this what lursa is arguing.

And again, it is not my determination on this. If you want to keep making that false claim then back it by demonstrating that safety books on guns are inconsistent on this matter.

There is no such thing as an safe way of doing something that is unsafe. Leaving a loaded gun unattended is not safe.

 

[soylentgreen]

The only one that has been made to look foolish is you. You have no standing to argue whatever case you claim, so you are merely banging your gums.

What are you basing the idea that I have no standing on?

 

[soylentgreen]

She noted her gun is for her personal defense. How the hell is it effective for that if it is unattended? Did she not say "within easy reach"?

What would be your recommendation for the condition she should keep her personal defense gun?

And she has failed to give any credible backing to that argument of self defense. Which makes it not a good reason but instead just an excuse to do something that every safety book on guns states should not be done.

I do not recommend anything for her. It is not my business to. The argument is not about her. The argument is about the safe way to leave a gun unattended.

 

[smallvoice]

And she has failed to give any credible backing to that argument of self defense. Which makes it not a good reason but instead just an excuse to do something that every safety book on guns states should not be done.

I do not recommend anything for her. It is not my business to. The argument is not about her. The argument is about the safe way to leave a gun unattended.

She has no requirement to define to you what she thinks her self defense needs might be in any given situation. Actually, none of this is your business. If I decide that my personal weapon is safe, wherever I put it, you have no opinion about the matter. That is the big difference between American freedoms and New Zealand ones.

 

[RF667799]

And I have repeatedly pointed out that this what lursa is arguing.

And again, it is not my determination on this. If you want to keep making that false claim then back it by demonstrating that safety books on guns are inconsistent on this matter.

There is no such thing as an safe way of doing something that is unsafe. Leaving a loaded gun unattended is nYot safe.

You have repeatedly failed to quote where @Lursa argued that it is categorically safe to leave a loaded, unsecured, unattended firearm laying about. What say you Lursa? Would you leave your defensive pistol outside on your mailbox while you drive to town to get some horse feed?

You must have also missed my earlier link, though I called your attention to it at least one additional time.

NOTE: You may decide to make compromises for storage if your handgun is used for self-defense. This is a judgment call on your part. However, there are “Quick Action” safes available on the market. If you are storing you handgun in your home, first educate your family on firearm safety (you can use this guide to help). Store your gun out of sight of young children. Finally, make sure your firearm is in a location where it’s not accessible to young children. NOTE: There are some gun owners that keep their handguns readily available, but they have a household where firearm ownership is taught to children as well. Once again, this is a judgment call on your part.

https://10xdefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Guide+to+Firearms+Safety.pdf

And again, how is it that my loaded gun, locked in my safe in my locked house, rises to the level of unequivocally "not safe" when I am outside mowing the lawn?

 

[soylentgreen]

You wonder a lot, but not about the woman I presented, raped in her nice condo on the golf course. I see you post again and again and 100% ignore her and the thousands like her. Just like now...avoidance, bobbing and weaving. You CANT answer anything directly.

Let me know when you have an answer: You have not once managed to explain how my gun is unsafe for anyone. (LOL I can...it's unsafe for someone who breaks in to attack me...see? Apparently you couldnt even break free of your rigid biases to come up with that.) OTOH, that's the whole point...which you choose to deny.

So your argument again relies on the fear of rape. But you fail to give any statistics that could back that fear. While you are ignoring that people have been shot because they neglected to make sure the gun was not loaded.

Shall we play a game of tit for tat and I will link people who shoot themselves or others because they were careless enough to think that making sure a gun is unloaded when not in use and you can point you all the rapes that occur.

Will not make either of our sides any better but it really is all you have to justify your belief that a loaded gun unattended or possibly even one that is attended is safe.

AnD yes I have, but all you have is the ability to ignore that and as I expected once again fail to give a credible link that what you are doing is a recommended safety procedure.

You can easily cut me down by showing me a link on gun safety that tells you leaving a loaded gun unsecured and unattended is safe. But you cannot all you can do is give faux enragement that someone should question your foolproof abilities with a gun.

 

[soylentgreen]

She has no requirement to define to you what she thinks her self defense needs might be in any given situation. Actually, none of this is your business. If I decide that my personal weapon is safe, wherever I put it, you have no opinion about the matter. That is the big difference between American freedoms and New Zealand ones.

I do not give a **** what her needs are. I have repeatedly stated that what she does is not my business. The only reason she is making it personal is because she has zero ability to justify her actions in any other way. She chooses to ignore safety is not the issue. That she is arguing that leaving a loaded gun unattended is safe is the issue.
I understand that there is a difference. In new zealand stupidity is not an excuse where as in america stupidity is considered not only a right but one that the pro-gun crowd want to push to its limit.

 

[RF667799]

I do not give a **** what her needs are. I have repeatedly stated that what she does is not my business. The only reason she is making it personal is because she has zero ability to justify her actions in any other way. She chooses to ignore safety is not the issue. That she is arguing that leaving a loaded gun unattended is safe is the issue.
I understand that there is a difference. In new zealand stupidity is not an excuse where as in america stupidity is considered not only a right but one that the pro-gun crowd want to push to its limit.

But apparently what she does not do, is your business.

Have you explained yet the condition that she should keep her firearm in for ready defensive use, within your wise estimation? Not that I've seen. You seem more intent on the idea that she should keep it either unloaded or unavailable.

 

[soylentgreen]

It's their catch 22:

If instances of gun crime go down, they say there's no need to seize their guns (a daily mass shooting doesn't count)
If instances go up, they say all the more need for them to keep their guns.

They contradict themselves in every way. The claim they are law abiding so that there guns should not be taken. Quickly followed with the fact that they will break the law without a second thought if a gun is banned. It really is not law abiding when a person cherry picks which law they will obey.

 

[soylentgreen]

But apparently what she does not do, is your business.

Have you explained yet the condition that she should keep her firearm in for ready defensive use, within your wise estimation? Not that I've seen. You seem more intent on the idea that she should keep it either unloaded or unavailable.

Why is it my business when it is I who must keep reminding her that her own personal circumstances are neither the issue nor an excuse to ignore safety rules?

And again you seem to prefer lies to any good argument . Either demonstrate inconsistency with the rule about unloading a gun when not in use or stop pretending this is my decision on safety.

 

[RF667799]

They contradict themselves in every way. The claim they are law abiding so that there guns should not be taken. Quickly followed with the fact that they will break the law without a second thought if a gun is banned. It really is not law abiding when a person cherry picks which law they will obey.

So sanctimonious. By that measure; who is law abiding?

 

[RF667799]

Why is it my business when it is I who must keep reminding her that her own personal circumstances are neither the issue nor an excuse to ignore safety rules?

And again you seem to prefer lies to any good argument . Either demonstrate inconsistency with the rule about unloading a gun when not in use or stop pretending this is my decision on safety.

Again?

NOTE: You may decide to make compromises for storage if your handgun is used for self-defense. This is a judgment call on your part. However, there are “Quick Action” safes available on the market. If you are storing you handgun in your home, first educate your family on firearm safety (you can use this guide to help). Store your gun out of sight of young children. Finally, make sure your firearm is in a location where it’s not accessible to young children. NOTE: There are some gun owners that keep their handguns readily available, but they have a household where firearm ownership is taught to children as well. Once again, this is a judgment call on your part.

https://10xdefense.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Guide+to+Firearms+Safety.pdf

 

[RF667799]

Why is it my business when it is I who must keep reminding her that her own personal circumstances are neither the issue nor an excuse to ignore safety rules?

And again you seem to prefer lies to any good argument . Either demonstrate inconsistency with the rule about unloading a gun when not in use or stop pretending this is my decision on safety.

And you still have not explained how she should keep her firearm readily available for defensive use. And you still pretend that "safety rules" are immutable and in a binary "safe/not safe" condition in every circumstance. While earlier you denied that was the case. Talk about inconsistency....