WW III is about to be launched!

[rhinefire]

He who controls the weather controls the world.

 

[zyzygy]

What were the terms of the arrangement made between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia and the other OPEC nations concerning oil sales and the U.S. dollar back in the seventies?

Forgive me for asking that question again, but your refusal to answer is now glaring.

Western Europe and the United States in the '70s | fabio capano - Academia.edu

 

[Sadling]

Western Europe and the United States in the '70s | fabio capano - Academia.edu

Could you please pull an excerpt from that rather lengthy article that answers the question I've asked?

 

[zyzygy]

Could you please pull an excerpt from that rather lengthy article that answers the question I've asked?

The answer is a long one and demands some concentration. The tone of your posts implies that you already know the answer so please feel free to enlighten us.

 

[Sadling]

The answer is a long one and demands some concentration. The tone of your posts implies that you already know the answer so please feel free to enlighten us.

Ah, so even you couldn't find it . . .

 

[Sadling]

Sorry, but your ignorant comment only proves that you do not know what in the hell you are talking about, or are so lost into the conspiracy crap that you can not separate fantasy from reality.

Before the 20th century, the value of money was tied to gold. Banks that lent money were constrained by the amount of their gold reserves. The Bretton Woods Agreement of 1944 established a system of exchange rates that allowed governments to sell their gold to the U.S. Treasury. But in 1971, U.S. President Richard Nixon took the country off the gold standard, which formally ended the linkage between the world's major currencies and gold.

The U.S. dollar then went through a massive devaluation, and oil played a crucial role in propping it back up. Nixon negotiated a deal with Saudi Arabia whereby in exchange for arms and protection, the Saudis would denominate all future sales of oil in U.S. dollars. Other OPEC members agreed to similar deals, ensuring perpetual global demand for greenbacks. The dominance of the U.S. "petrodollar" continues to this day.

The End Of An Era: Is The US Petrodollar Under Threat?

So, are you now going to add Andrew Topf to your list of conspiracy theorists?

 

[Oozlefinch]

Western Europe and the United States in the '70s | fabio capano - Academia.edu

Rather interesting read. An ultimately unclaimed college paper by the look, but it does show the status of relations between a great many nations in that period of time, the stresses going on, and the fluctuation going on. And yes, I am ignoring the constant demands by Sad that I find references to confirm his claims.

Interestingly enough, in doing some looking the only places I seem to find confirmation for his claims are all the usual CT players. Ron Paul, Jerry Robinson, and blogs like Huffington Post. Generally agenda driven sites that have a serious lack of objectivity and credibility outside of their own cheerleaders.

And ultimately, I have found this entire thread has become pretty pitiful. "I am going to ignore anything you and anybody ever say and demand that you reference my claim for me!"

So tell you what Sad, tell me this... what was oil traded in before the US dollar? And how did some magical meetings between the US and Saudi Arabia cause this to move to the US Dollar? And why has that currency owner not been active in the arguments?

 

[Oozlefinch]

Before the 20th century, the value of money was tied to gold. Banks that lent money were constrained by the amount of their gold reserves. The Bretton Woods Agreement of 1944 established a system of exchange rates that allowed governments to sell their gold to the U.S. Treasury. But in 1971, U.S. President Richard Nixon took the country off the gold standard, which formally ended the linkage between the world's major currencies and gold.

What do you not understand about the fact that the US had been off of the "gold standard" for over a century before 1971!

Or the fact that no country has been on the "Gold Standard" for decades!

This is why you fail, over and over and over again. You keep trying to force things that have nothing to do with each other and cram that into a conspiracy theory that ultimately fails. And these points have been pointed out to you over and over and over again.

Tell us, name for us the countries that did not leave the Gold Standard, and what their economies are like.

This is why your "theory" fails, it lives only in it's own little bubble, with no connection to the outside world.

 

[Sadling]

What do you not understand about the fact that the US had been off of the "gold standard" for over a century before 1971!

Getting you to answer this: "What were the terms of the arrangement made between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia and the other OPEC nations concerning oil sales and the U.S. dollar back in the seventies?" is like pulling teeth. You give the impression that you are dodging the question. And did you include Andrew Topf to your growing list of conspiracy theorists?
_________________________________________________________

It is not that the U.S. dollar is backed by oil. It is that the ability of oil-importing countries to purchase oil is tied to the dollar. When other countries require U.S. dollars to purchase oil, the U.S. can’t lose. Conversely, when oil-exporting nations do not require U.S. dollars to purchase their oil, the U.S. loses. There is nothing difficult in understanding this.

You appear to have forgotten that, in 1944, at the Bretton Woods conference, a new fixed exchange rate was established. All global currencies were pegged to the U.S. dollar. The reason that the rest of the world went along with this arrangement is because if at any time a nation didn’t feel comfortable with the dollar, they could easily convert their dollar holdings into gold at a rate of thirty-five dollars per ounce. Of course, this created a global demand for dollars, which gives the Federal government the “right” to print more dollars. I’m sure that you’re not ignorant of the fact that Washington’s preferred method of dealing with its economic problems is to print more dollars.

By 1971, with a two-hundred billion dollar price tag on the Viet Nam war, other countries were getting nervous because of the growing imbalance between U.S. gold reserves and U.S. debt. The U.S. did not have the money to pay its debts. To add insult to injury, its gold reserves were at an all-time low because other countries started asking for gold in exchange for their U.S. dollars. But instead of doing something about its debt, the U.S. continued to rack up more debt, which in turn increased other countries’ demand for more gold from the U.S. In response, and in contravention of the Bretton Woods agreement, Washington decided to end the convertibility of the dollar to gold.

This brings us to the issue of the petrodollar, which is, for all practical purposes, a “dollars for oil” arrangement to replace the “dollars for gold” arrangement.

EDIT: You are attempting to change this discussion to one about the gold standard. That’s not what is being discussed. The discussion is about the U.S. pulling out of the Bretton Woods agreement, and the petrodollar arrangement between the Saudis and the U.S. whereby all oil sales would be made with U.S. dollars only, thereby creating an artificial demand for U.S. dollars.

 

[Oozlefinch]

This brings us to the issue of the petrodollar, which is, for all practical purposes, a “dollars for oil” arrangement to replace the “dollars for gold” arrangement.

Then explain the current logic of oil in a drastic free-fall situation right now, yet the value of the US Dollar is going up.

Wait, that makes no sense. If the US Dollar is tied to oil, then the value of our currency should be falling. Because that is what is backing it, right? So when the price of oil rises, the value of currency rises. And when the price of oil falls, the value of the currency falls.

But the exact opposite is actually happening right now!

Pay attention to the real world, not your fantasy one. Because your very claim is being proven to be wrong because of what is going on with the price of oil and the value of the US Dollar at this very moment.

These charts should once and for all simply blow away your silly claims. The US Dollar is not tied to the price of oil, and this should make it obvious. Because if that was the case, then the Dollar would rise and fall in relationship to the value of oil. But it does not, in fact it most times does the exact opposite. High oil price, weak dollar. Low oil price, strong dollar.

So please explain this amazing conundrum, will you? How does the value move the opposite of the commodity you claim it is tied to?

In fact, the only real correlation that can be found between a commodity and the value of the US Dollar is in gold. And this is a contradictory effect because gold is the world's standard for purchase when a currency value drops. Investors drop the currency or stocks and put the money in gold, because it is the only investment in the world that is guaranteed to never be worthless. Ever. And when the value of the currency rises again, investors sell the gold and put it back into stocks, bonds, and other income investments.

This is economics 101 stuff my friend, Economics 101.

 

[Sadling]

So please explain this amazing conundrum, will you? How does the value move the opposite of the commodity you claim it is tied to?

Again you are pretending to not understand what is being said. The U.S. is tied to the dollar in the sense that other countries must pay for their oil in U.S. dollars. But then again, this arrangement between the U.S. and OPEC is something you will not admit to.

As I just stated, you are attempting to change this discussion to one about the gold standard. That’s not what is being discussed. The discussion is about the U.S. pulling out of the Bretton Woods agreement, and the petrodollar arrangement between the Saudis and the U.S. whereby all oil sales would be made with U.S. dollars only, thereby creating an artificial demand for U.S. dollars.

 

[Oozlefinch]

Again you are pretending to not understand what is being said.

No, you are failing to grasp that your claim is based upon a logical fallacy and in complete contradiction of what you are trying to claim.

You can say "the sky is pink" all day long. When all observations show that it is not true and that something else is true, you simply try to throw out more bogus claims that say it is pink, no matter what you are trying to say.

I am not pretending anything, your claims are nonsense. And you can't explain any of it logically, even when faced with direct proof that the exact opposite is true. Even when faced with the direct proof that no countries use the standard you claim is the best.

 

[Sadling]

No, you are failing to grasp that your claim is based upon a logical fallacy and in complete contradiction of what you are trying to claim.

No, the fact is that you are afraid to answer the question concerning the terms of the arrangement made between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia and the other OPEC nations concerning oil sales and the U.S. dollar back in the seventies. I gather that you have no intention of admitting that such an arrangement was made, and is still in effect.

 

[DA60]

Then explain the current logic of oil in a drastic free-fall situation right now, yet the value of the US Dollar is going up.

Wait, that makes no sense. If the US Dollar is tied to oil, then the value of our currency should be falling. Because that is what is backing it, right? So when the price of oil rises, the value of currency rises. And when the price of oil falls, the value of the currency falls.

But the exact opposite is actually happening right now!

Pay attention to the real world, not your fantasy one. Because your very claim is being proven to be wrong because of what is going on with the price of oil and the value of the US Dollar at this very moment.

These charts should once and for all simply blow away your silly claims. The US Dollar is not tied to the price of oil, and this should make it obvious. Because if that was the case, then the Dollar would rise and fall in relationship to the value of oil. But it does not, in fact it most times does the exact opposite. High oil price, weak dollar. Low oil price, strong dollar.

So please explain this amazing conundrum, will you? How does the value move the opposite of the commodity you claim it is tied to?

In fact, the only real correlation that can be found between a commodity and the value of the US Dollar is in gold. And this is a contradictory effect because gold is the world's standard for purchase when a currency value drops. Investors drop the currency or stocks and put the money in gold, because it is the only investment in the world that is guaranteed to never be worthless. Ever. And when the value of the currency rises again, investors sell the gold and put it back into stocks, bonds, and other income investments.

This is economics 101 stuff my friend, Economics 101.

The dollar is not tied to oil (in that it's value does not rise and fall with oil supplies)...it is just the official currency of oil.

However, the price of oil DOES rise and fall if the value of the U.S. dollar rises and falls.

Compare the recent rise of the dollar index with the ride in oil prices...they match (though this is obviously not the only reason for the oil price rise recently).

Petrodollar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Oozlefinch]

The dollar is not tied to oil (in that it's value does not rise and fall with oil supplies)...it is just the official currency of oil.

However, the price of oil DOES rise and fall if the value of the U.S. dollar rises and falls.

Compare the recent rise of the dollar index with the ride in oil prices...they match (though this is obviously not the only reason for the oil price rise recently).

Petrodollar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And this is what I have been trying to say for a while now. The Dollar was simply used as a standard for exchange, it is not tied to it in any way. And it is not the "official currency" for oil, it is simply the standard value for exchange. To actually purchase the oil, you do not need dollars, you can use any currency you want. Kind of like the standard "barrel" is 42 gallons, or that the standard price for gold and silver is given in ounces.

You are free to buy or sell in any volume you want, even 50 pound bricks, but the amount is translated to ounces first.

And yea, at one time the Wiki on that was pretty informative. But in the last year or so there have been massive edit wars over the content, because of CTers trying to throw in all kinds of nonsense. There have been over 70 edits so far this year, primarily with conspiracy types throwing in random crap and editors removing it only to have it reappear again.

Another thing I use when judging a Wikipedia article is the frequency of edits, comparing prior edits, and the references used. And while at the moment that wiki has dome basic information, it may change in another 15 minutes to something completely different because of the current edit war going on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Petrodollar&diff=636421814&oldid=636394612

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Petrodollar&diff=636421814&oldid=633487636

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Petrodollar&diff=636421814&oldid=620704034

This is why I do not use Wiki generally as a reference. Especially when I see that an edit war is going on.

 

[Thoreau72]

No, the fact is that you are afraid to answer the question concerning the terms of the arrangement made between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia and the other OPEC nations concerning oil sales and the U.S. dollar back in the seventies. I gather that you have no intention of admitting that such an arrangement was made, and is still in effect.

One of the insidious signs of dissonance is pretending that certain questions have not been asked, certain facts have not been demonstrated, if they exist at all.

Buena suerte!

 

[Mark F]

One of the insidious signs of dissonance is pretending that certain questions have not been asked, certain facts have not been demonstrated, if they exist at all.

Buena suerte!

You would be the expert on that, sometimes purposely avoiding questions for days.

 

[Sadling]

One of the insidious signs of dissonance is pretending that certain questions have not been asked, certain facts have not been demonstrated, if they exist at all.

Buena suerte!

I've repeatedly asked him what the terms of the arrangement made between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia and the other OPEC nations were concerning oil sales and the U.S. dollar back in the seventies? He's pretending he hasn't been asked. He will not even acknowledge that an arrangement was made, much less what the terms were. Fortunately, the information is there for anyone to see.

 

[NWO_Spook]

I've repeatedly asked him what the terms of the arrangement made between the U.S. and Saudi Arabia and the other OPEC nations were concerning oil sales and the U.S. dollar back in the seventies? He's pretending he hasn't been asked. He will not even acknowledge that an arrangement was made, much less what the terms were.

In an effort to prop up the value of the dollar, Richard Nixon negotiated a deal with Saudi Arabia that in exchange for arms and protection they would denominate all future oil sales in U.S. dollars. Subsequently, the other OPEC countries agreed to similar deals thus ensuring a global demand for U.S. dollars and allowing the U.S. to export some of its inflation. Since these dollars did not circulate within the country they were not part of the normal money supply, economists felt another term was necessary to describe the dollars received by petroleum exporting countries (OPEC) in exchange for oil, so the term petrodollar was coined by Georgetown University economics professor, Ibrahim Oweiss.

Because the United States was the largest producer and consumer of oil in the world, the world oil market had been priced in United States dollars since the end of World War II. International oil prices were based on discounts or premiums relative to that for oil in the Gulf of Mexico.[5] But, although oil sales prior to 1973 were denominated in U.S. dollars nothing precluded settlement in local currency.

In October 1973, OPEC declared an oil embargo in response to the United States' and Western Europe's support of Israel in the Yom Kippur War and this tension (and new power of OPEC) led to fear that the dollar would become insignificant in the oil trade.

Is this what you're looking for?

 

[NWO_Spook]

One of the insidious signs of dissonance is pretending that certain questions have not been asked, certain facts have not been demonstrated, if they exist at all.

Buena suerte!

And you're very good at it.

 

[DA60]

And this is what I have been trying to say for a while now. The Dollar was simply used as a standard for exchange, it is not tied to it in any way. And it is not the "official currency" for oil, it is simply the standard value for exchange. To actually purchase the oil, you do not need dollars, you can use any currency you want. Kind of like the standard "barrel" is 42 gallons, or that the standard price for gold and silver is given in ounces.

You are free to buy or sell in any volume you want, even 50 pound bricks, but the amount is translated to ounces first.

And yea, at one time the Wiki on that was pretty informative. But in the last year or so there have been massive edit wars over the content, because of CTers trying to throw in all kinds of nonsense. There have been over 70 edits so far this year, primarily with conspiracy types throwing in random crap and editors removing it only to have it reappear again.

Another thing I use when judging a Wikipedia article is the frequency of edits, comparing prior edits, and the references used. And while at the moment that wiki has dome basic information, it may change in another 15 minutes to something completely different because of the current edit war going on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Petrodollar&diff=636421814&oldid=636394612

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Petrodollar&diff=636421814&oldid=633487636

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Petrodollar&diff=636421814&oldid=620704034

This is why I do not use Wiki generally as a reference. Especially when I see that an edit war is going on.

Not if you deal with Saudi Arabia, America and MANY other countries...you must use US dollars (for now).

That is the power of the petrodollar.

Every economist knows this.

 

[Sadling]

Well, why don't you tell him and stop ****ing around?

The issue is not whether or not he has been told; he has. The issue is that he will not answer the question of what the terms of the petrodollar arrangement was. He will not even acknowledge that such an arrangement was made.

By the way, you've also been told what the terms of the agreement were. So . . .

 

[NWO_Spook]

The issue is not whether or not he has been told; he has. The issue is that he will not answer the question of what the terms of the petrodollar arrangement was. He will not even acknowledge that such an arrangement was made.

In light of your ignorance, why should he bother?

By the way, you've also been told what the terms of the agreement were. So . . .

So??????

Cut the BS and move on FFS! Why do you employ these puerile tactics?

 

[Sadling]

Subsequently, the other OPEC countries agreed to similar deals thus ensuring a global demand for U.S. dollars and allowing the U.S. to export some of its inflation.

But, although oil sales prior to 1973 were denominated in U.S. dollars nothing precluded settlement in local currency.

Is this what you intended to convey?

 

[NWO_Spook]

Is this what you intended to convey?

*SIGH* :slapme: