WTC 7 - OH NO! Please dont turn on the lights!

[Mark F]

So where's the fire? All the photos you post show fires on one or two floors. And the first one with a lot of smoke shows no fire at all. The video I posted of a real inferno shows FIRE, huge flames, lots of it. You don't know the difference either? In all the videos of WTC7 that show 3 sides of the building, you can't even see one floor on fire. How is it an inferno if there's a lot of smoke on only one side of the building that shows no fire?

You should try reading instead of rushing to publish your knee-jerk reaction posts.

 

[Bob0627]

You should try reading instead of rushing to publish your knee-jerk reaction posts.

So no inferno then? Reading doesn't show any fires, no matter how much I read, pictures show what they're supposed to show unless they're doctored. You don't know the difference? You yourself keep saying eyewitness evidence is "anecdotal". I guess that's only when YOU want it to be anecdotal Mr. Hypocrite. I had a lot of time to look over the photos you posted and I still don't see any inferno. I still see fires on one or two floors and a lot of smoke but no fire in the first photo. You see an inferno somewhere? Where?

 

[mike2810]

So no inferno then? Reading doesn't show any fires, no matter how much I read, pictures show what they're supposed to show unless they're doctored. You don't know the difference? You yourself keep saying eyewitness evidence is "anecdotal". I guess that's only when YOU want it to be anecdotal Mr. Hypocrite. I had a lot of time to look over the photos you posted and I still don't see any inferno. I still see fires on one or two floors and a lot of smoke but no fire in the first photo. You see an inferno somewhere? Where?

You really should research Bob.
WTC 7 - World Trade Center Evidence-Based Research

Do you understand building fire behavior?
What is your definition of a building fire "inferno"?

I agree that some photos on the internet are alterned. My experience they mostly come from the alternative explanation crowd.

Studies of a Falsified Photo, Part 1 - World Trade Center Evidence-Based Research

 

[Mark F]

So no inferno then? Reading doesn't show any fires, no matter how much I read, pictures show what they're supposed to show unless they're doctored. You don't know the difference? You yourself keep saying eyewitness evidence is "anecdotal". I guess that's only when YOU want it to be anecdotal Mr. Hypocrite. I had a lot of time to look over the photos you posted and I still don't see any inferno. I still see fires on one or two floors and a lot of smoke but no fire in the first photo. You see an inferno somewhere? Where?

Its called forming a hypothesis from multiple forms of evidence Bob. You really should try it sometime.

The fires in 7 World Trade Center started on the south side where there effectively was no photography and gradually spread throughout the day. Eventually the fires got big enough they could even be seen blowing out windows and billowing out on several floors on the north and east sides as well. Then the safety zone was created due to the fears expressed by the fire chiefs I quoted earlier and close-up photography of the lower floors effectively ceased. So when the pictures were taken is important. The fires had 7 hours to spread. Photo's taken early on will show less fire than anything taken later but the area was cleared in the afternoon to create a safety zone, limiting opportunities for photography.

Let me repeat the key point though. The fires were concentrated on the south side of the building where for obvious reasons there was almost no photography.

This is why real investigators do not artificially limit themselves to one piece of evidence that best fits their preconceptions. Beyond the photo and video evidence we have the accounts of firefighters and fire chiefs who were on scene, using their experience and expertise to assess the situation and make decisions. Their observations corroborate the physical evidence (ie: physical evidence + witness corroboration = not anecdotal). Multiple forms of evidence leading to a common conclusion. That's how investigation works. It is the opposite of how conspiracy (non)thinking works.

 

[Bob0627]

You really should research Bob.

I did.

 

[zyzygy]

I did.

He meant real research, not perusing truther fantasy sites.

 

[Fledermaus]

I did.

No, obviously you didn't.

Going to AE911Truth for your prepackaged "answers" isn't research here in the real world.

 

[Bob0627]

Photo's taken early on will show less fire than anything taken later but the area was cleared in the afternoon to create a safety zone, limiting opportunities for photography.

Let me repeat the key point though. The fires were concentrated on the south side of the building where for obvious reasons there was almost no photography.

This video below shows an INFERNO that apparently wasn't a problem recording on video, probably from any distance and any side of the building.



And as for WTC7, videos of 3 sides of the building show no fires at the time of the collapse, never mind an inferno. Do you see an inferno anywhere? How about even a significant fire?

Beyond the photo and video evidence we have the accounts of firefighters and fire chiefs who were on scene, using their experience and expertise to assess the situation and make decisions. Their observations corroborate the physical evidence (ie: physical evidence + witness corroboration = not anecdotal). Multiple forms of evidence leading to a common conclusion. That's how investigation works. It is the opposite of how conspiracy (non)thinking works.

Oh so you mean REAL investigations use eyewitness testimony? So when firefighters who were on scene say they saw molten steel and it's corroborated by photos (at least pics of molten metal) and other eyewitness testimony, that is investigated? Or is it only selective eyewitness testimony investigated, that which sounds like it fits a story?

 

[zyzygy]

This video below shows an INFERNO that apparently wasn't a problem recording on video, probably from any distance and any side of the building.



And as for WTC7, videos of 3 sides of the building show no fires at the time of the collapse, never mind an inferno. Do you see an inferno anywhere? How about even a significant fire?



Oh so you mean REAL investigations use eyewitness testimony? So when firefighters who were on scene say they saw molten steel and it's corroborated by photos (at least pics of molten metal) and other eyewitness testimony, that is investigated? Or is it only selective eyewitness testimony investigated, that which sounds like it fits a story?

All fires are equal. No doubt you learned that in your long career as a firefighter.

 

[Fledermaus]

This video below shows an INFERNO that apparently wasn't a problem recording on video, probably from any distance and any side of the building.



And as for WTC7, videos of 3 sides of the building show no fires at the time of the collapse, never mind an inferno. Do you see an inferno anywhere? How about even a significant fire?

Oh so you mean REAL investigations use eyewitness testimony? So when firefighters who were on scene say they saw molten steel and it's corroborated by photos (at least pics of molten metal) and other eyewitness testimony, that is investigated? Or is it only selective eyewitness testimony investigated, that which sounds like it fits a story?

Bob, INVESTIGATIONS happened... And what was IRRELEVANT or ILLOGICAL was rejected.

And, since "eyewitness testimony" is SO important to you...

The FIREFIGHTERS WITNESSED the FIRES in WTC7 and were very clear about their intensity. Something you ignore.

The FIREFIGHTERS WITNESSED the IMPENDING SIGNS OF STRUCTURAL FAILURE LONG BEFORE COLLAPSE. Something else you ignore.

And, "molten steel"... How often does that occur in READ CD? You never did answer that one.

And, "molten steel"... How do EXPLOSIVES do that? You never did answer that one either.

 

[Mark F]

This video below shows an INFERNO that apparently wasn't a problem recording on video, probably from any distance and any side of the building.

And as for WTC7, videos of 3 sides of the building show no fires at the time of the collapse, never mind an inferno. Do you see an inferno anywhere? How about even a significant fire?

Oh so you mean REAL investigations use eyewitness testimony? So when firefighters who were on scene say they saw molten steel and it's corroborated by photos (at least pics of molten metal) and other eyewitness testimony, that is investigated? Or is it only selective eyewitness testimony investigated, that which sounds like it fits a story?

Congratulations. You have proven beyond doubt that when filmed at night, from close range, with no other structures limiting the view and from the side of the building that is burning fire is clearly visible. That's amazing. I notice this fire is producing copious amounts of smoke too. Volumes of smoke not at all dissimilar to another fire I can think of,...

When you limit yourself to imagery taken from far away, where buildings obscure all but the top 18 floors of the 47 story 7 World Trade Center of course you are not going to see what you don't want to see. Images like this one though clearly show the fire damage on the lower floors on the north side of 7.

And this one, the only footage I am aware of that gets a decent view of the lower floors of 7 at the moment of collapse clearly shows smoke billowing from the north side, low down (where the fires were).



So, for 7 WTC we have a photographic and video record of 7 hours of fires. We have multiple expert witnesses reporting on the state of the building throughout this period which is corroborated by the available physical evidence.

Why you keep going back to molten whatever I don't know. People saw what they described as molten steel or other materials. Finding molten materials in large fires is not unusual. There was no shortage of large fires on 9/11. If anything finding molten whatever is just stronger evidence of large fires. Other than that, why we should care about molten whatever has not been established. CT's however, have a sort of Underpants Gnomes type approach to this subject.

Step 1: Find molten steel
Step 3: Proves CD

Specific Truther claims of vast rivers or pools of molten (as in liquid by the strict definition) steel in the rubble pile, week and months after the event are without evidentiary basis. These claims are extrapolated from cherry-picked witness statements, usually carefully edited removed from context and without corroborating physical evidence nor any sort of plausible explanation for what would have caused this alleged anomaly.

So how this is analogous to the discussion of fires in 7 WTC I do not know.

 

[Fledermaus]

This video below shows an INFERNO that apparently wasn't a problem recording on video, probably from any distance and any side of the building.



And as for WTC7, videos of 3 sides of the building show no fires at the time of the collapse, never mind an inferno. Do you see an inferno anywhere? How about even a significant fire?

Oh so you mean REAL investigations use eyewitness testimony? So when firefighters who were on scene say they saw molten steel and it's corroborated by photos (at least pics of molten metal) and other eyewitness testimony, that is investigated? Or is it only selective eyewitness testimony investigated, that which sounds like it fits a story?

First responder accounts
Unless otherwise noted, accounts are from the FDNY oral history transcripts.

1. We walked over by number Seven World Trade Center as it was burning and saw this 40-plus story building with fire on nearly all floors. –FDNY Lieutenant Robert Larocco

2. ...Just when you thought it was over, you're walking by this building and you're hearing this building creak and fully involved in flames. It's like, is it coming down next? Sure enough, about a half an hour later it came down. –FDNY Lieutenant James McGlynn

3. I walked out and I got to Vesey and West, where I reported to Frank [Cruthers]. He said, we’re moving the command post over this way, that building’s coming down. At this point, the fire was going virtually on every floor, heavy fire and smoke that really wasn’t bothering us when we were searching because it was being pushed southeast and we were a little bit west of that. I remember standing just where West and Vesey start to rise toward the entrance we were using in the World Financial Center. There were a couple of guys standing with me and a couple of guys right at the intersection, and we were trying to back them up – and here goes 7. It started to come down and now people were starting to run. –FDNY Deputy Chief Nick Visconti http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/visconti.html

4. All morning I was watching 7 World Trade burn, which we couldn't do anything about because it was so much chaos looking for missing members. –Firefighter Marcel Klaes

5. When the building came down it was completely involved in fire, all forty-seven stories.
–FDNY Assistant Chief Harry Myers (Smith, Dennis, 2002. Report From Ground Zero: The Heroic Story of the Rescuers at the World Trade Center. New York: Penguin Putnam. p. 160)

6. The concern there again, it was later in the afternoon, 2, 2:30, like I said. The fear then was Seven. Seven was free burning. Search had been made of 7 already from what they said so they had us back up to that point where we were waiting for 7 to come down to operate from the north back down. –Captain Robert Sohmer http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110472.PDF

7. Then we had to move because the Duane Reade, they said, wasn't safe because building 7 was really roaring. –FDNY Chief Medical Officer Kerry Kelly.

8. At this point Seven World Trade was going heavy, and they weren't letting anybody get too close. Everybody was expecting that to come down. –Firefighter Vincent Massa

9. Chief Cruthers told me that they had formed another command post up on Chambers Street. At this point there were a couple of floors burning on Seven World Trade Center. Chief McNally wanted to try and put that fire out, and he was trying to coordinate with the command post up on Chambers Street. This is after searching for a while. He had me running back and forth trying to get companies to go into Seven World Trade Center. His radio didn't seem to be working right either because he had me relaying information back and forth and Chief Cruthers had me --

Q. So everything was face-to-face? Nothing was by radio?

A. Yeah, and it was really in disarray. It really was in complete disarray. We never really got an operation going at Seven World Trade Center. –FDNY Captain Michael Donovan

10. Building #7 was still actively burning and at that time we were advised by a NYFD Chief that building #7 was burning out of control and imminent collapse was probable. –PAPD P.O. Edward McQuade www.thememoryhole.org / server maintenance page 48.

There are plenty more where that came from.....

 

[Mark F]

First responder accounts
Unless otherwise noted, accounts are from the FDNY oral history transcripts.

1. We walked over by number Seven World Trade Center as it was burning and saw this 40-plus story building with fire on nearly all floors. –FDNY Lieutenant Robert Larocco

2. ...Just when you thought it was over, you're walking by this building and you're hearing this building creak and fully involved in flames. It's like, is it coming down next? Sure enough, about a half an hour later it came down. –FDNY Lieutenant James McGlynn

3. I walked out and I got to Vesey and West, where I reported to Frank [Cruthers]. He said, we’re moving the command post over this way, that building’s coming down. At this point, the fire was going virtually on every floor, heavy fire and smoke that really wasn’t bothering us when we were searching because it was being pushed southeast and we were a little bit west of that. I remember standing just where West and Vesey start to rise toward the entrance we were using in the World Financial Center. There were a couple of guys standing with me and a couple of guys right at the intersection, and we were trying to back them up – and here goes 7. It started to come down and now people were starting to run. –FDNY Deputy Chief Nick Visconti http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/magazine/gz/visconti.html

4. All morning I was watching 7 World Trade burn, which we couldn't do anything about because it was so much chaos looking for missing members. –Firefighter Marcel Klaes

5. When the building came down it was completely involved in fire, all forty-seven stories.
–FDNY Assistant Chief Harry Myers (Smith, Dennis, 2002. Report From Ground Zero: The Heroic Story of the Rescuers at the World Trade Center. New York: Penguin Putnam. p. 160)

6. The concern there again, it was later in the afternoon, 2, 2:30, like I said. The fear then was Seven. Seven was free burning. Search had been made of 7 already from what they said so they had us back up to that point where we were waiting for 7 to come down to operate from the north back down. –Captain Robert Sohmer http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/9110472.PDF

7. Then we had to move because the Duane Reade, they said, wasn't safe because building 7 was really roaring. –FDNY Chief Medical Officer Kerry Kelly.

8. At this point Seven World Trade was going heavy, and they weren't letting anybody get too close. Everybody was expecting that to come down. –Firefighter Vincent Massa

9. Chief Cruthers told me that they had formed another command post up on Chambers Street. At this point there were a couple of floors burning on Seven World Trade Center. Chief McNally wanted to try and put that fire out, and he was trying to coordinate with the command post up on Chambers Street. This is after searching for a while. He had me running back and forth trying to get companies to go into Seven World Trade Center. His radio didn't seem to be working right either because he had me relaying information back and forth and Chief Cruthers had me --

Q. So everything was face-to-face? Nothing was by radio?

A. Yeah, and it was really in disarray. It really was in complete disarray. We never really got an operation going at Seven World Trade Center. –FDNY Captain Michael Donovan

10. Building #7 was still actively burning and at that time we were advised by a NYFD Chief that building #7 was burning out of control and imminent collapse was probable. –PAPD P.O. Edward McQuade www.thememoryhole.org / server maintenance page 48.

There are plenty more where that came from.....

So what you are saying is, the FDNY clearly stood down at 7 WTC :mrgreen:

 

[mike2810]

More photos and vids of WTC7.

[video]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2056088/Footage-kills-conspiracy-theories-Rare-footage-shows-WTC-7-consumed-fire.html[/video]

 

[Fledermaus]

So what you are saying is, the FDNY clearly stood down at 7 WTC :mrgreen:

ZOMG! You are right!

9/11 INSIDE JOB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mike2810]

I did.

and no response to the source I provided to photos of wtc7 fires.

Guess the source does not meet your standards.:mrgreen:

Still waiting for your reply on what sources you have used to reach your stance regarding 9/11.

 

[KokomoJojo]

Specific Truther claims of vast rivers or pools of molten (as in liquid by the strict definition) steel in the rubble pile, week and months after the event are without evidentiary basis.

its not truther claims mark, its

1) firemen claims
2) first responder claims
3) fema claims
4) building designers claims
5) construction workers claims
6) satellite verification

looks to me like debunkers are smoking some pretty good **** to come out here and lie on a continual basis.

 

[Mark F]

its not truther claims mark, its

1) firemen claims
2) first responder claims
3) fema claims
4) building designers claims
5) construction workers claims
6) satellite verification

looks to me like debunkers are smoking some pretty good **** to come out here and lie on a continual basis.

Which FDNY personnel made a specific claim of rivers or pools of molten steel weeks/months after the attacks?
Which first responder personnel made a specific claim of rivers or pools of molten steel weeks/months after the attacks?
Which FEMA personnel made a specific claim of rivers or pools of molten steel weeks/months after the attacks?
Which building designer made a specific claim of rivers or pools of molten steel weeks/months after the attacks?
Which construction personnel made a specific claim of rivers or pools of molten steel weeks/months after the attacks?
Which satellite made a specific claim of rivers or pools of molten steel weeks/months after the attacks?

 

[KokomoJojo]

Which FDNY personnel made a specific claim of rivers or pools of molten steel weeks/months after the attacks?
Which first responder personnel made a specific claim of rivers or pools of molten steel weeks/months after the attacks?
Which FEMA personnel made a specific claim of rivers or pools of molten steel weeks/months after the attacks?
Which building designer made a specific claim of rivers or pools of molten steel weeks/months after the attacks?
Which construction personnel made a specific claim of rivers or pools of molten steel weeks/months after the attacks?
Which satellite made a specific claim of rivers or pools of molten steel weeks/months after the attacks?

thats general knowledge that even noobs know mark that you have been shown countless times and if you are too lazy to click a mouse then hire a secretary.

 

[Mark F]

thats general knowledge that even noobs know mark that you have been shown countless times and if you are too lazy to click a mouse then hire a secretary.

So you got nuthin then - right.

 

[zyzygy]

thats general knowledge that even noobs know mark that you have been shown countless times and if you are too lazy to click a mouse then hire a secretary.

No answers, as usual. These threads have the inevitability of a Greek tragedy. Why not just answer those questions if you have the information?

 

[Fledermaus]

No answers, as usual. These threads have the inevitability of a Greek tragedy. Why not just answer those questions if you have the information?

You answered your own question.

 

[KokomoJojo]

No answers, as usual. These threads have the inevitability of a Greek tragedy. Why not just answer those questions if you have the information?

you want tutoring get out your wallet pal

its common knowledge and all over the net, take mouse clicking lessons if thats too tough for you

 

[KokomoJojo]

More photos and vids of WTC7.

[video]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2056088/Footage-kills-conspiracy-theories-Rare-footage-shows-WTC-7-consumed-fire.html[/video]

are you serious?







thats not even enough fire to bring someones cheap residential home down!

More new lows from debunkers?

 

[Mark F]

are you serious?







thats not even enough fire to bring someones cheap residential home down!

More new lows from debunkers?

What happened to all those windows Koko?