Would you support prioritizing COVID patients?

[bearpoker]

Here’s a tough question, would you support giving vaccinated COVID patients priority over unvaccinated when it comes to limited bed space and resources?

No, but I would support giving patients with the best chance of recovery priority. In many cases, that would be the vaccinated patients.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Correction: The study says that 83% of Americans now have "some degree of protection", not immunity: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...stimates-80-Americans-protected-COVID-19.html'

And judging by the 100,000+ cases/1000+ deaths per day we've had for like a month now, I would definitely say those rules and regulations are needed. Particularly in certain southern states where hospital beds are filled with covid patients.

Nah, I am not impressed by cases and deaths. Cases equate to those who've tested positive. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/faq-surveillance.html

It does not mean they are actually "suffering" medical conditions.

But in regards to the CDC report, the negative cases still fall primarily into the two major categories; the Obese with breathing issues and one or more co-morbidities, and the elderly with breathing issues and one or more co-morbidities.

Now it is true there are a lot of Obese Americans. We also have a large number of elderly. Both of these are due to positive and negative socio-economic conditions.

Positive in that we have access to plenty of food, and we have fairly decent medical systems.

Negative in that much of our food is "unhealthy" (full of sugars and other fatteners), and that many of our elderly are not really living in the best conditions.

However, the evidence shows that regardless of age, if one is of a healthy weight, and maintains a reasonable diet and exercise program maintaining basic fitness, then there is a high success rate just as with the annual flu.

Meanwhile, as pointed out in prior posts, despite the fearmongering, over 99% of our citizens have no more to fear than a typical bout of the seasonal flu.

 

[Elmo]

These goalposts must be mounted on wheels, with a tractor to pull them. Otherwise the COVID Nazis would have long sense ruined their backs moving them.

No. The goal has always been to get COVID under control. Masks are a tool to help with that. Social distancing, also a tool. Vaccines are probably the best tool. Politicians and and doctors have made predictions that we would reach the goal, but that was based on the assumption that people would want to achieve the goal using the available tools. Unfortunately, tools don't do anything if you refuse to use them.

The goal has not changed. No goalposts have moved. Predictions have been wrong because assumptions were wrong. We have a surprisingly large population of selfish morons. If you feel like you're owed an end to all of this, they are the ones to blame.

 

[Captain Adverse]

Correction: The study says that 83% of Americans now have "some degree of protection", not immunity: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...stimates-80-Americans-protected-COVID-19.html'

And judging by the 100,000+ cases/1000+ deaths per day we've had for like a month now, I would definitely say those rules and regulations are needed. Particularly in certain southern states where hospital beds are filled with covid patients.

P.S. In regards to your "hospital bed" concerns, I recommend this post of mine:

New Study Shows Masks Increase Protection From Covid-19 Substantially

In summary: Overall, based on observational and animal studies, masks appear to be effective in reducing transmission of SARS-CoV-2. Some of the existing data is limited by masking occurring in conjunction with other interventions, the assumption that mask mandates are enforced and the...

debatepolitics.com

 

[AJG]

Nah, I am not impressed by cases and deaths. Cases equate to those who've tested positive. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/covid-data/faq-surveillance.html

It does not mean they are actually "suffering" medical conditions.

But in regards to the CDC report, the negative cases still fall primarily into the two major categories; the Obese with breathing issues and one or more co-morbidities, and the elderly with breathing issues and one or more co-morbidities.

Now it is true there are a lot of Obese Americans. We also have a large number of elderly. Both of these are due to positive and negative socio-economic conditions.

Positive in that we have access to plenty of food, and we have fairly decent medical systems.

Negative in that much of our food is "unhealthy" (full of sugars and other fatteners), and that many of our elderly are not really living in the best conditions.

However, the evidence shows that regardless of age, if one is of a healthy weight, and maintains a reasonable diet and exercise program maintaining basic fitness, then there is a high success rate just as with the annual flu.

Meanwhile, as pointed out in prior posts, despite the fearmongering, 99% of our citizens have no more to fear than a typical bout of the seasonal flu.

99%? It's actually much worse than that:

• About four in ten adults (37.6%) ages 18 and older in the U.S. (92.6 million people) have a higher risk of developing serious illness if they become infected with coronavirus, due to their older age (65 and older) or health condition (Figure 1; Table 1).
• Just over half of those at higher risk of developing a serious illness are ages 65 and older (55.2% or 51.1 million adults); however, the remaining 41.4 million adults ages 18-64 are at risk due to an underlying medical condition.

How Many Adults Are at Risk of Serious Illness If Infected with Coronavirus? Updated Data | KFF

About four in ten adults (37.6%) ages 18 and older in the U.S. (92.6 million people) have a higher risk of developing serious illness if they become infected with the novel coronavirus, due to their older age (65 and older) or health condition. The share who have a higher risk varies across the...

www.kff.org

Obviously a lot the high risk people are vaccinated (although that's much less true in the states with low vaccination rates that are now experiencing large outbreaks), but that doesn't guarantee protection, particularly the delta variant which the vaccines are less effective against. But it seems very unlikely that only 1% are at high risk.

As for cases, I agree that the number alone doesn't mean much, but we've also seen a big spike in deaths and hospitalizations that have come with it. And while hospitalization rates for children remain low, it's now 5 times higher than what it was in June:

Less than a month into the new school year, the U.S. is seeing a record number of children hospitalized for COVID-19. According to data from the CDC, the hospitalization rate for children under 18 is five times what it was in June, and the New York Times reports that nearly 30,000 adolescents and children were hospitalized for coronavirus in August.

And it looks like that increase is mostly coming from states with low vaccination rates:

The ten most vaccinated states haven’t seen much change in their pediatric hospitalization rates, while the biggest increases are happening in states with low vaccination rates.

And this is indeed a problem in some places where children's hospitals are becoming overwhelmed:

But the spike in hospitalizations is especially concerning given the capacity of pediatric ICU units, which average just 12 beds per hospital. In Louisiana and Texas, some children’s hospitals are completely overwhelmed, with federal “surge teams” bringing emergency workers in to help.

A Record Number of Kids Are Being Hospitalized for COVID

Infections are spiking and many hospitals are overwhelmed, especially in states with low vaccination rates.

www.thecut.com

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

We have no idea how many young healthy people have already had this virus with little or no symptoms. I know of several young and healthy family members who tested positive and did not even know they had it. When I talked to them about it they said they had worse hangovers. The only reason she found out is she had a little trouble jogging that morning so she got tested before visiting her grandmother. Everyone in the household tested positive including the children. The reality is most of the cases we hear and have statistics on are those people that do get very sick or die. How many young healthy people in this country have contracted this virus and never even got tested or even had symptoms? We will never know unless every one gets tested on a daily basis for a while whether you have symptoms or not.

 

[seymourflops]

No. The goal has always been to get COVID under control. Masks are a tool to help with that. Social distancing, also a tool. Vaccines are probably the best tool. Politicians and and doctors have made predictions that we would reach the goal, but that was based on the assumption that people would want to achieve the goal using the available tools. Unfortunately, tools don't do anything if you refuse to use them.

The goal has not changed. No goalposts have moved. Predictions have been wrong because assumptions were wrong. We have a surprisingly large population of selfish morons. If you feel like you're owed an end to all of this, they are the ones to blame.

Oh.

It was our imagination that we were told that if we were vaccinated, we could stop wearing masks?

 

[Hamish Howl]

Here’s a tough question, would you support giving vaccinated COVID patients priority over unvaccinated when it comes to limited bed space and resources?

This isn't a tough question.

When you have insufficient resources for everyone, you treat the people who 1) have the best chance to survive, and 2) will use the least resources.

If you didn't get vaccinated and 10 other people did, and there are ten beds, you're just flat out of luck, and while you wheeze your way offstage, you can contemplate the stupid decisions that put you there.

 

[Captain Adverse]

99%? It's actually much worse than that:

The numbers simply are not showing that. As I've already pointed out in painstaking detail...over, and over, and over again.

Obviously a lot the high risk people are vaccinated (although that's much less true in the states with low vaccination rates that are now experiencing large outbreaks), but that doesn't guarantee protection, particularly the delta variant which the vaccines are less effective against. But it seems very unlikely that only 1% are at high risk.

The figures speak for themselves. It's been a year and a half since Covid first "struck" the USA. Yet as I pointed out, less than 1% of the US Population has died of this novel coronavirus, despite all the concerns.

This is partly due to vaccination, as you point out. It is also partly due to the fact that most Americans, aside from the two major risk groups, simply have good immune systems hardened by seasonal flu experiences.

As I've also argued in other threads, I am not vaccine averse, nor would I be averse to "drastic measures" if this disease were truly "dangerous" to a significant proportion of our citizens. Like Ebola, Hanta, etc..

But it simply is not.

As for cases, I agree that the number alone doesn't mean much, but we've also seen a big spike in deaths and hospitalizations that have come with it. And while hospitalization rates for children remain low, it's now 5 times higher than what it was in June:

Again, the "hospitalization rate" does not impress me, as I posted in the reply. Percentages of "beds" when there aren't that many beds in the first place is a false flag of dangerousness.

 

[Elmo]

Oh.

It was our imagination that we were told that if we were vaccinated, we could stop wearing masks?

This isn't difficult to understand. It was believed that once everyone was vaccinated, the virus' ability to spread would be severely hindered and masks would not be as necessary. It was assumed that everyone would choose to vaccinate once it was available. Unfortunately, too many people are selfish morons who refuse to get vaccinated, so that condition has not been achieved.

So if you absolutely must whine about the trivial inconvenience of wearing a mask, at least direct your complaints to the people responsible: the anti-vaxxers.

 

[What if...?]

T

I was not arguing a "libertarian view." I was arguing against your clearly utilitarian position accepting authoritarian restrictions simply because you chose to fear what is not all that fearful.

As I've pointed out in many other threads, while the numbers of deaths seems "shocking," they still remain both a very small percentage of the population AND primarily targeting a very specific segment of our population. For the vast majority of the rest of us, Covid-19 has little more effect than exposure to the annual flu. That endemic "seasonal threat" ALSO targets the very same segments of the population, the obese with co-morbidities caused by that condition, and the very old with multiple co-morbidities. I myself am fairly old, but I am both healthy and fit, and suffer no "co-morbidities."

I still got vaccinated. Not because I needed to, but because it came with the "promise" of no more masks. That promise has been rescinded, which means I've already dealt with one "lie" from those who argue for "safety" over my rights. I don't see any reason to accept any further hysterics or deceptions.

I am really tired of the wilful ignorance in regards to virology.

Are you aware that Asian countries comply with masking due to the fear that someone who manages to get infected with the highly lethal bird flu and then catches regular old human flu will give "birth" to a bird flu that can be passed from human to human, thereby possibly destroying civilization as we know it?

 

[seymourflops]

This isn't difficult to understand. It was believed that once everyone was vaccinated, the virus' ability to spread would be severely hindered and masks would not be as necessary. It was assumed that everyone would choose to vaccinate once it was available. Unfortunately, too many people are selfish morons who refuse to get vaccinated, so that condition has not been achieved.

So if you absolutely must whine about the trivial inconvenience of wearing a mask, at least direct your complaints to the people responsible: the anti-vaxxers.

Currently, I am not required to wear a mask anywhere that I want to go. So no need to whine to anyone.

I certainly wouldn't whine at someone for their medical choices.

The COVID Nazis feared to re-instate the requirements having rescinded the mask mandate after so many months.

Now they just express fear and lisp at us to mask up.

 

[AJG]

The numbers simply are not showing that. As I've already pointed out in painstaking detail...over, and over, and over again.


The figures speak for themselves. It's been a year and a half since Covid first "struck" the USA. Yet as I pointed out, less than 1% of the US Population has died of this novel coronavirus, despite all the concerns.

This is partly due to vaccination, as you point out. It is also partly due to the fact that most Americans, aside from the two major risk groups, simply have good immune systems hardened by seasonal flu experiences.

As I've also argued in other threads, I am not vaccine averse, nor would I be averse to "drastic measures" if this disease were truly "dangerous" to a significant proportion of our citizens. Like Ebola, Hanta, etc..

But it simply is not.



Again, the "hospitalization rate" does not impress me, as I posted in the reply. Percentages of "beds" when there aren't that many beds in the first place is a false flag of dangerousness.

But why are you only using the number of people who have died so far to determine how dangerous covid is? Why aren't you also factoring in the number of people who have been hospitalized due to covid? Or the millions of people at high risk who haven't caught covid, likely due to them taking careful measures to ensure their own safety? Just because someone hasn't died or caught covid yet, doesn't mean that they haven't become severely ill, or won't catch a serious case in the future. We have to factor in all those things, and the data shows that 37% are at high risk, although that number has been greatly reduced due to the vaccines. Still, I'm sure it's much greater than the 1% you're suggesting.

 

[Captain Adverse]

But why are you only using the number of people who have died so far to determine how dangerous covid is? Why aren't you also factoring in the number of people who have been hospitalized due to covid? Or the millions of people at high risk who haven't caught covid, likely due to them taking careful measures to ensure their own safety? Just because someone hasn't died or caught covid yet, doesn't mean that they haven't become severely ill, or won't catch a serious case in the future. We have to factor in all those things, and the data shows that 37% are at high risk, although that number has been greatly reduced due to the vaccines. Still, I'm sure it's much greater than the 1% you're suggesting.

Then let the "37%" take all the damn precautions they want. Vaccinate, eat right and lose weight, exercise, maintain healthy life-styles. If they are elderly, and in retirement homes or other residences, then require all visitors to maintain Covid-19 safe practices.

But requiring others to submit to violations of their body rights? No.

If I want to shop somewhere, and they require a mask, I can chose to mask or chose to shop where the owner does not require it. But the STATE should not compel business owners to require it of customers.

If I am concerned about getting ill or placing loved one's and friend's at risk, then I can vaccinate, etc..

But if my friends and family are not concerned, because they are low-risk or simply not afraid? Then who has the right to tell how we can interact?

So, back to the point of the thread...if someone does not follow those rules and get's sick, then just like any other "self-inflicted" wounds, they should be allowed medical attention at the level of their need.

 

[NuffSaid]

Do you know how many people go into the hospital every year because of choice of lifestyle. Do no longer treat soldiers because they put themselves in harms way? Do we no longer treat heart attack victims because they did not eat healthy or exercise? Your entire premise we should not treat people because their choices in life led to their becoming injured or sick happens to be most of the people who are currently in our hospitals needing medical care. Face the facts already your not wanting to provide care for people who do not get vaccinated is due to hate and prejudice.

Never heard hospitals having to state their ICU was at capacity because of heart attacks or injuries or that gunshot victims were left to die because their rooms were at capacity due to anti-vaxxers wanting their freedoms.

 

[eohrnberger]

This is the only question worth answering. The rest are red herrings. While your dismissal of my "credentials" is a non-issue.

The point of my responses is simply this.

Covid-19, despite all your concerns about the numbers of "today" is only different from the Spanish Flu in that fewer citizens are being affected than when that old coronavirus appeared over 100 years ago.

This virus is simply not as dangerous, yet your side of the argument acts like the sky is falling and if "everyone doesn't obey central authority" very bad things will befall.

Yet a CDC study has already indicated that 80% or more of our population has Covid-19 "immunity," i.e. either by vaccination or exposure allowing for an immune reaction which protects them.

That enough people have either inoculated or have naturally occurring immune reactions via overcoming exposure.

So we don't need all those authoritarian rules and regulations. Period.

End of story.

Tagline time.

Bottom line COVID doesn’t have nearly as a high a morbidity rate as other viruses, and the politicization and fear mongering from the left is simply because they see a authoritarian political advantage in doing so. Kinda figured.

 

[AJG]

Then let the "37%" take all the damn precautions they want. Vaccinate, eat right and lose weight, exercise, maintain healthy life-styles. If they are elderly, and in retirement homes or other residences, then require all visitors to maintain Covid-19 safe practices.

But requiring others to submit to violations of their body rights? No.

If I want to shop somewhere, and they require a mask, I can chose to mask or chose to shop where the owner does not require it. But the STATE should not compel business owners to require it of customers.

If I am concerned about getting ill or placing loved one's and friend's at risk, then I can vaccinate, etc..

But if my friends and family are not concerned, because they are low-risk or simply not afraid? Then who has the right to tell how we can interact?

So, back to the point of the thread...if someone does not follow those rules and get's sick, then just like any other "self-inflicted" wounds, they should be allowed medical attention at the level of their need.

As you said before, there's a point where drastic measures should be taken. When 37% of the population is severely impacted, that point has certainly been reached for me. And for the record, I voted that they should all be treated equally. The decision to treat someone shouldn't be based on politics, but other things like who is in most need of medical attention.

 

[PIPEWRENCH]

Never heard hospitals having to state their ICU was at capacity because of heart attacks or injuries or that gunshot victims were left to die because their rooms were at capacity due to anti-vaxxers wanting their freedoms.

That is because our media only tells the sheep what they want them to hear. If you have never heard of our hospitals in our major cities not turning away people because they were overwhelmed you are clearly uninformed. I have seen it first hand and heard this my entire life.

When I had my knee surgery 5 years ago I did not have a room because the hospital was at capacity and there were not enough rooms. Of course that was because of Obama care. When I took a friend of mine to Ben Taub hospital in Houston 20 years ago we sat in the emergency room all night because the hospital was over run with heart attacks, stabbings, and gun shots wounds. The sad reality is most hospitals are run at 90+% capacity a lot of the time because if they weren't they would not make money. It does not take much to over run them which happens all the time all over this country. Of course usually it is the poor that sit in the waiting room dying while the rich are prioritized.

 

[AJG]

That is because our media only tells the sheep what they want them to hear. If you have never heard of our hospitals in our major cities not turning away people because they were overwhelmed you are clearly uninformed. I have seen it first hand and heard this my entire life.

When I had my knee surgery 5 years ago I did not have a room because the hospital was at capacity and there were not enough rooms. Of course that was because of Obama care. When I took a friend of mine to Ben Taub hospital in Houston 20 years ago we sat in the emergency room all night because the hospital was over run with heart attacks, stabbings, and gun shots wounds. The sad reality is most hospitals are run at 90+% capacity a lot of the time because if they weren't they would not make money. It does not take much to over run them which happens all the time all over this country. Of course usually it is the poor that sit in the waiting room dying while the rich are prioritized.

Perhaps hospital beds are often at capacity, but it looks like covid is making that far likelier to happen. For example, in Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi and Arizona, around 40% of ICU beds are filled by covid patients.

10 states where COVID has filled the most hospital ICU beds

The government also has released the latest data on intensive care unit utilization for all 50 states and the District of Columbia.

www.benefitspro.com

You take away covid, you are certainly much more likely to find a hospital bed.

 

[btthegreat]

Uh, the word “perfect” never was in my statement.

there’s a difference between someone refusing to get vaccinated because they heard Fox and others make up stupid reasons not to, then getting sick with Covid versus someone not getting the vaccine because of other medical issues.

sorry, I have no sympathy for those who claim Covid is a hoax or is “like the flu” then end up in the ICU on their death bed.

choices, some make piss poor ones, and they should be put in the back of the line.

I don't want you to give them sympathy. I want the medical system to treat them for the condition that induced them to seek medical care based on their need for care. I want you to stop shuffling the people who are standing in line for medical care ( its triage based), based on a new and exciting criteria you like - morality!

This is undoubtedly not the first time people have wanted to shuffle this line in the history of medicine. Its natural when circumstances present some people as more likeable than others. They like to carve out specific circumstances and specific diagnosis and attach preconditions to prompt medical care based on sympathy. They would rather treat the the drunk driver after they treat the guy he hit. They want to treat two men who get into a knife fight differently based on who attacked who, rather than who got the worst of it. They want to judge the people in the waiting room based on who they think deserves the care, the pain relief most.

You are changing the entire premise on which medicine allocates its services, its drugs, its beds away from a need based premise - but just this time! but just for this diagnosis! But just cuz the shot is so easy to get!, just right now!

Its a badly run hospital when the morality police push the doctors to the back of the line!

 

[Credence]

I would not expect a hospital not to treat anyone for the reason they are seeking treatment for. I do though wish more people would take others into consideration and get vaccinated. I find it very selfish as I have not really heard any good reasons why people are refusing unless it is for a medical condition which thus far has been minimal

In recent days, a veteran and a woman suffering from cancer who needed fluid drained couldn't get treatment due to a lack of bed and both died.

Here is the veteran; saw an interview about the woman with the husband and Don Lemon

Mother demands change after U.S. Army veteran dies waiting for ICU bed

HOUSTON, Texas (KTRK) -- An Army Veteran died from a treatable illness after family says he waited seven hours for an ICU bed to become available.

Daniel Wilkinson, also known as Danny, had two deployments in Afghanistan and returned home as a Purple Heart recipient. His mother, Michelle Puget, said they moved to Bellville about three years ago in order to enjoy a quiet life together.

"He just [has] a big heart, a big personality and a big soul," Puget said. "In 2019, I came down with breast cancer and he took care of me two years through that. He took me to all my chemos, to my surgery. [He] took care of me, kept track of my doctor's appointment, everything. I mean he was just that type of a son."

Puget said last Saturday, Wilkinson became very ill. She took him to an emergency room just three houses down from their home where he was diagnosed with gallstone pancreatitis. Doctors said he needed treatment immediately.

"[The doctor] said, 'We know what we need to do, and how to do it. We just have to get him to a facility to get it done,' and they couldn't do that," Puget said.

More: https://abc13.com/us-army-veteran-da...-icu/10983810/

 

[RaleBulgarian]

I don't waste time on strawman arguments.

Is that the same as dumb ass snark in this case?

If so, I’m with you.

 

[Helix]

Is that the same as dumb ass snark in this case?

If so, I’m with you.

Sometimes you just have to be alone and take some you time. I learned that from 80s hair metal and Fergie.

 

[eohrnberger]

We have to treat COVID patients and vaccinate those who are not infected. For the misinformed and unwilling anti-vaxers, perhaps we can require vaccination for access to any public sector service.

Hey Helix, weren't you one of the many supporting the position that healthcare was a 'right'?
Isn't this position of yours here then denying someone their 'rights'? I mean at least in that view of 'rights'?

 

[Helix]

Hey Helix, weren't you one of the many supporting the position that healthcare was a 'right'?
Isn't this position of yours here then denying someone their 'rights'? I mean at least in that view of 'rights'?

I do, and no.