Would you allow Muslim-American citizens to be put in internment camps?

[Hatuey]

Oh, you don't know how quickly an Amendment to the Constitution might be made if needed, or how the Courts can interpret what the Constitution says.

And you're a fool if you think such an amendment would even get anywhere near the constitution.

If the US was being threatened and the people thought it would make sense to restrict the liberties of certain people you can bet they would do it, and do it quickly. And use whatever means needed to enforce order.

And it wouldn't make it any less unconstitutional. Just like the internment of Japanese Americans during W.W.II

Many of us might not like it now but that's because we are looking at the issue in the context of what we see today.

You know....thinking your ideas aren't fascist and actually having fascist ideas are two completely different animals.

Are TODAY'S Americans more moral than the people called OUR GREATEST GENERATION?

Morality has nothing to do with it. Your argument is one that is on a very slippery slope. If the government decides to put Muslim-Americans in internment camps for whatever reason then nothing stops it from putting non-Muslim-Americans in camps. Nothing and that is something which goes against the morals of even "The Greatest Generation". Shame they realized it too late. However they made up for their mistake by giving the Japs a sh!tload of dinero.

I think not.

The argument can be made that what has changed between then, when we allowed the internment of Japanese AND Germans (many of the Germans continued to observe their Nazi meetings in the camps) and now, is that the threat was felt then and it was a real possibility. Whereas, right now we can't imagine enough Muslims ever doing anything that would justify interning all Muslims.

We had no reason to intern Japanese-American citizens then and we'd have no reason to do it today. Specially if they've committed no crime or even so much as engaged in anti-American activity.

If we could have quarantined Patient Zero in the AIDS epidemic as we did the flying TB patient a few months ago, I'd say we should have done it.

Quarantine and internment aren't the same thing. The patients who didn't have any TB were released. Those who did weren't. As opposed to internment. Where citizens were put in camps regardless of whether or not they had engaged in any wrongdoing.

If we can separate the few to protect the many, no matter what the characteristics of the few might be, it is only logical.

No. It is not. Read about how "logical" SCOTUS thought the internment of Japanese-Americans was.

It's the same idea as triage. You isolate those few who might be infected.

You save the many that can be saved.

Your analogy is false and a dishonest attempt at trying to debate. The purpose of triage is to determine what level of care a patient deserves. The purpose of internment was to isolate a part of population. Regardless of whether they were "sick"(guilty of any wrongdoing) or not. They were simply isolated. Told where to go. Like sheep or cows. Whether they were guilty of any wrongdoing mattered not. When you come up with a better analogy you're more then welcome to come back.

 

[Hatuey]

I dont see how this proves a point at all.Nobody on here as far as i know have claimed all muslims as enemies or anything like that.In fact i think most people make a point of saying they are not against most muslims.It disgust me more the way people on the left talk about jewish people im not talking about here so much as you look at the comments on you tube videos etc its full of anti semitism.

Thanks for not answering my question. 42 votes but from who?

 

[Hatuey]

Thanks for clearing it up. You're a real mensch :lol:

My yiddish is rusty but if you're talking about me being a stand up guy Right back at ya fella. :2wave:

 

[mikhail]

Thanks for not answering my question. 42 votes but from who?

Well not from me but.You really think it was that illogical to have the japanese internment camps when you where at war with the japanese?

 

[Hatuey]

Well not from me but.You really think it was that illogical to have the japanese internment camps when you where at war with the japanese?

Ummmm. Yes. Imagine I put every single African American male between ages 15-35 in jail. Just in case they're gang members. Regardless of whether they're actual gang members or not.

 

[aegyptos]

My yiddish is rusty but if you're talking about me being a stand up guy Right back at ya fella. :2wave:

And they say irony is dead...

 

[mikhail]

Ummmm. Yes. Imagine I put every single African American male between ages 15-35 in jail. Just in case they're gang members. Regardless of whether they're actual gang members or not.

Not the same its not a war.World war 2 was a total war.You could be talking about the dresden bombings or whatever during that time.

 

[bhkad]

Ummmm. Yes. Imagine I put every single African American male between ages 15-35 in jail. Just in case they're gang members. Regardless of whether they're actual gang members or not.

If we were dive bombed and strafed by multi-hued African Americans in Pimp gear and baseball cap wearing gangsters and our Pacific fleet was sunk and a thousand of our personnel were killed, you bet your sweet *** every 'darkie' near the coast would be rounded up and given their own little ghetto they could wage turf fights in. :yes:

 

[bhkad]

And you're a fool if you think such an amendment would even get anywhere near the constitution.


And it wouldn't make it any less unconstitutional. Just like the internment of Japanese Americans during W.W.II



You know....thinking your ideas aren't fascist and actually having fascist ideas are two completely different animals.


Morality has nothing to do with it. Your argument is one that is on a very slippery slope. If the government decides to put Muslim-Americans in internment camps for whatever reason then nothing stops it from putting non-Muslim-Americans in camps. Nothing and that is something which goes against the morals of even "The Greatest Generation". Shame they realized it too late. However they made up for their mistake by giving the Japs a sh!tload of dinero.



We had no reason to intern Japanese-American citizens then and we'd have no reason to do it today. Specially if they've committed no crime or even so much as engaged in anti-American activity.



Quarantine and internment aren't the same thing. The patients who didn't have any TB were released. Those who did weren't. As opposed to internment. Where citizens were put in camps regardless of whether or not they had engaged in any wrongdoing.


No. It is not. Read about how "logical" SCOTUS thought the internment of Japanese-Americans was.



Your analogy is false and a dishonest attempt at trying to debate. The purpose of triage is to determine what level of care a patient deserves. The purpose of internment was to isolate a part of population. Regardless of whether they were "sick"(guilty of any wrongdoing) or not. They were simply isolated. Told where to go. Like sheep or cows. Whether they were guilty of any wrongdoing mattered not. When you come up with a better analogy you're more then welcome to come back.

The purpose of internment was to prevent possible sabotage to America by those whose loyalties were not to America.

We know that there are many Muslims whose loyalties are to the Koran but they say nothing to suggest they are anything but loayl Americans. They smile and are pleasant and go about their business. But if the fatwa was issued how many of these Muslims would disobey their religion and instead choose to be faithful to America?

 

[Alastor]

10:48 AM yesterday, this poll is started.

At 4:40 PM (the time of my post) I know for a fact that there were zero yes votes, and at least 39 no votes.

At 5:58 PM, Navy Pride rightly and fairly pointed out it had suddenly gained 41 yes votes.

That's a load of crap.


Anyway... I asked "What about Gitmo" which got this response:

I think Moussaoui has a better deal than he deserves. Life in prison: 3 hots, a cot, and a squat and he doesn't have to deal with frigging Jihadists!

But we're not talking about Moussaoui. Gitmo is but one area, among many, where "terrorist threats" are interred. Among them are indeed, American citizens.

Yet here we have a poll that until rigged to high holy Hell, showed clearly that none of us would support such a thing.

Yet in reality, we support such a thing by allowing it to happen.

I admit it, I'm guilty of it. I think it's wrong, but I haven't written a Congressman over it, nor gone to a protest, or signed a petition. I did weigh this issue when casting my votes last election and will this time as well, but I haven't been pro-active about it.

Yet we overwhelmingly all said it shouldn't be done. So I'm wondering if it's such a clear case of right and wrong why we as a population haven't done anything about it.

 

[bhkad]

10:48 AM yesterday, this poll is started.

At 4:40 PM (the time of my post) I know for a fact that there were zero yes votes, and at least 39 no votes.

At 5:58 PM, Navy Pride rightly and fairly pointed out it had suddenly gained 41 yes votes.

That's a load of crap.


Anyway... I asked "What about Gitmo" which got this response:



But we're not talking about Moussaoui. Gitmo is but one area, among many, where "terrorist threats" are interred. Among them are indeed, American citizens.

Yet here we have a poll that until rigged to high holy Hell, showed clearly that none of us would support such a thing.

Yet in reality, we support such a thing by allowing it to happen.

I admit it, I'm guilty of it. I think it's wrong, but I haven't written a Congressman over it, nor gone to a protest, or signed a petition. I did weigh this issue when casting my votes last election and will this time as well, but I haven't been pro-active about it.

Yet we overwhelmingly all said it shouldn't be done. So I'm wondering if it's such a clear case of right and wrong why we as a population haven't done anything about it.

I think we should do something about Gitmo.

The best idea is taken from the Liberal Playbook.

Let's re-name it.

What are your suggestions?

My first thought was Cudina.

Cuba + Medina.

What are yours?

 

[Alastor]

What are yours?

I don't know.

My sense of being an American says we should turn them over to the court system. The military, frankly, is not equipped to handle the situation. This is not what they do, not what they're trained for, and not what we want our soldiers focused on. Our soldiers should be in the field relieving their comrades and rotating out some incredibly fatigued and shell-shocked peers. The military is not the "investigative branch" of the White House.

Our judicial system is really the only system equipped to deal with it. Even so, it gets really murky really fast.

As soon as we put a legitimate body of law on the table, you're going to see a lot of these cases dismissed or flat-out dropped. We didn't even maintain our own legal standards, or even those of the Geneva Convention (which are less stringent than our own domestic laws). Almost none of these cases would stand the legal test, and the vast majority of these folks would be set free - which would be dangerous.

But as an American, and with a sense of justice and ethics, I feel that preserving our democracy is honestly more important than locking up thousands of potentially dangerous (but maybe not too - statistically most of them are not actually a threat based on what we've found out about them) people.

It's a hard choice, and an unpleasant one, but if I wanted to live with Gustapo and Secret Police, I'd move to a dictatorship. People being spirited away to parts unknown never to be heard from again and never granted basic legal recourse is something I find repugnant.

I have no choice but to support handing this over to the American judicial system for disposition.

 

[Hatuey]

The purpose of internment was to prevent possible sabotage to America by those whose loyalties were not to America.

62% of the interned WERE Americans.

We know that there are many Muslims whose loyalties are to the Koran but they say nothing to suggest they are anything but loayl Americans.

The "Just in Case" ideals don't fly. Thanks for playing.

They smile and are pleasant and go about their business. But if the fatwa was issued how many of these Muslims would disobey their religion and instead choose to be faithful to America?

Fatwas have been issued by Bin Laden declaring war on America. You're more then welcome to read them and then count the number of U.S. Muslims that have paid heed to them. A Fatwa was issued in 1996 and then another in 1998. Fatwa's are issued all the time. It's funny to see you argue about Islam without copy and pasting. "The Fatwa". hahahahahaha.

 

[bhkad]

I don't know.

My sense of being an American says we should turn them over to the court system. The military, frankly, is not equipped to handle the situation. This is not what they do, not what they're trained for, and not what we want our soldiers focused on. Our soldiers should be in the field relieving their comrades and rotating out some incredibly fatigued and shell-shocked peers. The military is not the "investigative branch" of the White House.

Our judicial system is really the only system equipped to deal with it. Even so, it gets really murky really fast.

As soon as we put a legitimate body of law on the table, you're going to see a lot of these cases dismissed or flat-out dropped. We didn't even maintain our own legal standards, or even those of the Geneva Convention (which are less stringent than our own domestic laws). Almost none of these cases would stand the legal test, and the vast majority of these folks would be set free - which would be dangerous.

But as an American, and with a sense of justice and ethics, I feel that preserving our democracy is honestly more important than locking up thousands of potentially dangerous (but maybe not too - statistically most of them are not actually a threat based on what we've found out about them) people.

It's a hard choice, and an unpleasant one, but if I wanted to live with Gustapo and Secret Police, I'd move to a dictatorship. People being spirited away to parts unknown never to be heard from again and never granted basic legal recourse is something I find repugnant.

I have no choice but to support handing this over to the American judicial system for disposition.

Gulf War

The Gulf War or Persian Gulf War (2 August 1990 – 28 February 1991)[7][8] was a conflict between Iraq and a coalition force from 34 nations[9] authorized by the United Nations (UN) and led primarily by the United States in order to liberate Kuwait.

 

[Hatuey]

If we were dive bombed and strafed by multi-hued African Americans in Pimp gear and baseball cap wearing gangsters and our Pacific fleet was sunk and a thousand of our personnel were killed, you bet your sweet *** every 'darkie' near the coast would be rounded up and given their own little ghetto they could wage turf fights in. :yes:

And it would be unlawful & unconstitutional. Thanks for playing.

 

[Alastor]

That's an interesting reply, bhkad.

When someone gives an answer you don't like, attack the person rather than the idea.

So you're actually the second person on this board I've had this conversation with. The reason I claim "Gulf War Veteran" instead of just "Veteran" is because according to both the Defense Accounting and Finance Department (which pays people, including vets) and the Department of Veteran's Affairs, the Gulf War began in 1990, and is in fact, an ongoing operation.

My DD214 (discharge) lists the code for "Gulf War Veterans" as well as "Operation Desert Storm."

I have many copies of orders that deployed me, and at the top they say, "Operation Desert Storm."

Feel free to call them and verify that. I did so about 8 days ago, when someone else on this board got their panties in a wad over it.

In any case, that neither diminishes my point nor responds to it. It simply shows your tendency to reach out for desperation when met with logical arguments that contradict your own.

Thanks for sharing though.

 

[mikhail]

And it would be unlawful & unconstitutional. Thanks for playing.

The thing is Hatuey what you are talking about is purely based on the idea America was attacked further from Islamic extremism in America.But even the idea of saying its like the japanese in ww2 is inaccurate because japanese is a race not an ideology.

You would may be surprised to hear this but im actually concerned about the same thing if 9/11 showed anything it was the fact the governments explantion for it will be that government didnt have enough powers to stop it.But its ok people complaining about it now they didnt straight after 9/11.

If you dont want this to happen you should support the war on terror on the offensive.

 

[bhkad]

62% of the interned WERE Americans.

AMERICAN


AMERICAN


AMERICAN



So, what is your point???

Fatwas have been issued by Bin Laden declaring war on America. You're more then welcome to read them and then count the number of U.S. Muslims that have paid heed to them.

Don't insult our intelligence.

NOT EVERYONE WITH A LONG BEARD CAN ISSUE A FATWA

"...Needless to say the quality of education in most cases is doubtful to say the least. In many Arab countries almost anyone who could read the Quran may now pretend to be one of the ulema and authorised to issue fatwas.

Hardly a day passes without some petition signed by large numbers of self-styled ulema appearing on the internet or being posted in the mosques and bazaars.

The media in general and television in particular have contributed to this inflation in the number of ulema. Journalists often think they need someone with a beard and some kind of theological headgear for an interview.

The inflationary trend in the number of so-called scholars and the increased politicisation of theological education have led to the marginalisation of the small number of well-trained and genuine ulema in almost all Muslim countries.

[...]

Some radicals, including Bin Laden, have given up on the ulema and, growing their own beards a bit longer, claim the right to issue their own fatwas. This kind of self-service fatwa, however, is already discredited in the eyes of the overwhelming majority of Muslims.

Amir Taheri is an Iranian journalist and author based in Europe, he's a member of Benador Associates and can be reached at amirtaheri@benadorassociates.com

NOT EVERYONE WITH A LONG BEARD CAN ISSUE A FATWA - Amir Taheri - Benador Associates

 

[Hatuey]

The thing is Hatuey what you are talking about is purely based on the idea America was attacked further from Islamic extremism in America.But even the idea of saying its like the japanese in ww2 is inaccurate because japanese is a race not an ideology.

This is irrelevant and a massive strawman. I never for once said that the Japanese were like Muslims. I said what if we put them in internment camps like the ones we put Japanese people in. Thats the strawman part in your argument. The irrelevancy comes in the fact that people of an ideology can't be grouped. The U.S.C.B. counts the population every ten years. In this count they include questions like "What religion are you a member of?". This allows them to keep an estimate of American Citizens/Residents who are Muslim. My question revolved around "Muslim-American" Citizens being put in internment camps. During WWII the criteria wasn't much different. It was people who were of Japanese ancestry. Not people of Japanese Ancestry who were loyal to the Japanese Empire.

You would may be surprised to hear this but im actually concerned about the same thing if 9/11 showed anything it was the fact the governments explantion for it will be that government didnt have enough powers to stop it.But its ok people complaining about it now they didnt straight after 9/11.01

This doesn't make any sense.

If you dont want this to happen you should support the war on terror on the offensive.

:rofl - Ummmm the "War on Terror" would be the only way such a draconian measure would be taken.

 

[mikhail]

This is irrelevant and a massive strawman. I never for once said that the Japanese were like Muslims. I said what if we put them in internment camps like the ones we put Japanese people in. Thats the strawman part in your argument. The irrelevancy comes in the fact that people of an ideology can't be grouped. The U.S.C.B. counts the population every ten years. In this count they include questions like "What religion are you a member of?". This allows them to keep an estimate of American Citizens/Residents who are Muslim. My question revolved around "Muslim-American" Citizens being put in internment camps. During WWII the criteria wasn't much different. It was people who were of Japanese ancestry. Not people of Japanese Ancestry who were loyal to the Japanese Empire.



This doesn't make any sense.



:rofl - Ummmm the "War on Terror" would be the only way such a draconian measure would be taken.

Get real there is no strawman arguement there. The point is they are of the same ideology yes or no? I wont say anything further because i know how this arguement works you spray out about 20 other points out. so lets go one at a time.

 

[Hatuey]

AMERICAN


AMERICAN


AMERICAN



So, what is your point???

Out of how many U.S. American Muslims? You once more prove the point that you're nothing more then a troll relying on "just in case" fallacies.

Religion in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Muslim immigration is rising as in 2005 alone more people from Islamic countries became legal permanent US residents than in any year in the previous two decades.[23][24] Number of Muslims in the US is controversial. Latest surveys suggest 3.0 million (1.0% of the total population[25] [26][27]), but the statistic could be far greater. Media were usual to state the presence of 6 million, to 8 million, to 10 million Muslims in the US especially before the 9/11.[28]

3 out of 3 Million or 3 out of 6 million. What percentage is that again?

Hahahahah

Don't insult our intelligence.

NOT EVERYONE WITH A LONG BEARD CAN ISSUE A FATWA - Amir Taheri - Benador Associates[/QUOTE]

Some radicals, including Bin Laden, have given up on the ulema and, growing their own beards a bit longer, claim the right to issue their own fatwas. This kind of self-service fatwa, however, is already discredited in the eyes of the overwhelming majority of Muslims.

Rofl - More proof of why you should never ever join a conversation about Islam. Osama Bin Laden wasn't the only signatory of the Fatwa. Signatories of the Fatwa included Islamic Scholars who CAN in fact issue a fatwa.

 

[1069]

I don't understand.
43 people have said "yes".
More than have said "no".
Please tell me this is a joke.

 

[Khayembii Communique]

because japanese is a race

How the hell is "Japanese" a race? How do you determine if someone is a member of the "Japanese race"?

Seriously, where do you people come up with this shit?

 

[Hatuey]

Get real there is no strawman arguement there.

There is. You created this false argument that I somehow implied that Japanese and Muslims were somehow the same. You made some irrelevant comment about race and ideology. Ignorant of the fact that they're both counted every ten year and that rounding members of each group up would take about the same effort.

The point is they are of the same ideology yes or no?

Radical Muslims and moderate Muslims? You're a fool if you think they are.

I wont say anything further because i know how this arguement works you spray out about 20 other points out. so lets go one at a time.

Are Moderate Muslims and Radical Muslims of the same ideology? No. One is violent. The other isn't.

 

[Hatuey]

How the hell is "Japanese" a race? How do you determine if someone is a member of the "Japanese race"?

Seriously, where do you people come up with this shit?

Japanese is a nationality. I don't even know why he pointed it out. It's irrelevant.