• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

World Likely has Hottest Summer on Record

Factors beyond the exact position in the earth's orbit are involved in the temperature of the earth. Specifically, the atmosphere. The moon, without atmosphere, has no stability to its surface temperature. The moon is, essentially, the same distance from the sun as the earth.
There've been graphs I've seen showing the temperature of the entire earth by months and a 7% drop is huge. Are u aware that in June 2018 Antarctica reported the coldest temperature on record.

So much for our "records".
 
There've been graphs I've seen showing the temperature of the entire earth by months and a 7% drop is huge. Are u aware that in June 2018 Antarctica reported the coldest temperature on record.

So much for our "records".
Any collection of data will show dispersion with some high and some low, even record low temperatures, above and below a trend line. The TREND is the important consideration, not the isolated individual daily or monthly temperatures at specific locations.
 
You appear to be describing a certain physical property of CO2 observed experimentally on a small sample.
What does this specific observation, on a practical level, have to do with whether global warming is occurring or not?
The concept of CO2 driven AGW is based on the idea that CO2 absorbs 15 um photons, and then re radiates in random directions,
with slightly less than 50% heading back towards the ground.
This is not what CO2 does in lab conditions, and there is little reason to think it will happen differently in the atmosphere.
While CO2 can and does absorb 15 um photons, it almost never re radiates anything because it loses it energy by physical contact
with other atoms or molecules. This also can cause warming, but nothing like AGW describes.
Also while excited, CO2 is transparent to new photons.
Human caused climate change is happening, but CO2 is not likely one of the big contributors.
I do not think that reaching net zero will have much effect on the observed rate of warming.
Other human caused factors, like aerosol clearing and land use changes, have a much greater effect.
P.S. this is not in disagreement with the Scientific Consensus, which just called out Human activity.
 
It seems to me that I recall a study that looked at this very question.
Beyond equilibrium climate sensitivity
Wow it looks like quite a few have ranges that extend below 1C and have ranges that extend up to 10C.
View attachment 67467625

Yet another example of you quoting a paper that disagrees with your position:

"The consensus ‘likely’ range for climate sensitivity of 1.5-4.5 C today is the same as given by Jule Charney in 1979, but is now based on quantitative evidence from across the climate system, and through climate history. "

(likely means >66%)

Further...
"There is strong evidence, however, that a credible representation of the mean climate and variability is difficult to achieve in current models with equilibrium climate sensitivities below 2°C, and current GCMs favour sensitivities near 3°C or above (see Methods). This is consistent with the argument that water vapor and lapse rate combined would almost double the black body response to near 2°C, and with the surface albedo feedback being positive, a strongly negative cloud feedback (or a large part of the recent warming being of natural origin) would be needed to explain a low sensitivity 24,25, which is not supported by observations and attribution studies 7. Recent progress in estimating cloud feedbacks therefore leads to a “null hypothesis” for ECS above 3°C based on the robustly quantified feedbacks 26–29. Few studies have used climatological mean constraints 30 or decadal prediction bias tendencies to constrain TCR 31. Overall, the raw range of ECS values in CMIP5 as well as emergent constraints from selected
observations and CMIP5, and analysis of feedbacks favour the upper half of the IPCC ECS range (Figure 3)"


"Conclusions and implications for research and policy
The goal of this review is not to come up with a single number or range for ECS based on a rigorous mathematical framework. Indeed that is very challenging given the various methods, assumptions, datasets and models used in all the studies. Our overall assessment of ECS and TCR is broadly consistent with IPCC 7 but concerns arise about estimates of ECS from the historical period that assume constant feedbacks, raising serious questions to what extent ECS values less than 2°C are consistent with current physical understanding of climate feedbacks. A value of around 3°C is most likely given the combined evidence and the recognition that feedbacks change over time."



Going back to your picture, most of those outliers are gray lines. Did you see the notes for these figures?

"Some studies show quite different ranges compared to other lines of evidence. However, many of these have not held up to tests estimating a model’s known sensitivity, robustness tests or evaluation of their assumptions. These studies, those estimating somewhat different quantities, those arguing that there is no reliable constraint, and all those before 2008 (approximately predating the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report in 2007 and our earlier review) are marked in grey to indicate that those might not be the most reliable estimates, although we recognize that this is a judgement call and others might come to slightly different decisions on grey versus colored lines. The overall aim of the figures is to show the wide range of research on this topic, realizing that a like with like comparison of different estimates is difficult. The categorization, discussion and assessment of the many studies is solely the view of the authors of this review, but the overall conclusions do not depend on these choices."

On a final note, once again, NOT a single climate scientist combines ECS with TCR ranges showing just exactly how much you know about the climate science.
 
Yet another example of you quoting a paper that disagrees with your position:

"The consensus ‘likely’ range for climate sensitivity of 1.5-4.5 C today is the same as given by Jule Charney in 1979, but is now based on quantitative evidence from across the climate system, and through climate history. "

(likely means >66%)

Further...
"There is strong evidence, however, that a credible representation of the mean climate and variability is difficult to achieve in current models with equilibrium climate sensitivities below 2°C, and current GCMs favour sensitivities near 3°C or above (see Methods). This is consistent with the argument that water vapor and lapse rate combined would almost double the black body response to near 2°C, and with the surface albedo feedback being positive, a strongly negative cloud feedback (or a large part of the recent warming being of natural origin) would be needed to explain a low sensitivity 24,25, which is not supported by observations and attribution studies 7. Recent progress in estimating cloud feedbacks therefore leads to a “null hypothesis” for ECS above 3°C based on the robustly quantified feedbacks 26–29. Few studies have used climatological mean constraints 30 or decadal prediction bias tendencies to constrain TCR 31. Overall, the raw range of ECS values in CMIP5 as well as emergent constraints from selected
observations and CMIP5, and analysis of feedbacks favour the upper half of the IPCC ECS range (Figure 3)"


"Conclusions and implications for research and policy
The goal of this review is not to come up with a single number or range for ECS based on a rigorous mathematical framework. Indeed that is very challenging given the various methods, assumptions, datasets and models used in all the studies. Our overall assessment of ECS and TCR is broadly consistent with IPCC 7 but concerns arise about estimates of ECS from the historical period that assume constant feedbacks, raising serious questions to what extent ECS values less than 2°C are consistent with current physical understanding of climate feedbacks. A value of around 3°C is most likely given the combined evidence and the recognition that feedbacks change over time."



Going back to your picture, most of those outliers are gray lines. Did you see the notes for these figures?

"Some studies show quite different ranges compared to other lines of evidence. However, many of these have not held up to tests estimating a model’s known sensitivity, robustness tests or evaluation of their assumptions. These studies, those estimating somewhat different quantities, those arguing that there is no reliable constraint, and all those before 2008 (approximately predating the IPCC Fourth Assessment Report in 2007 and our earlier review) are marked in grey to indicate that those might not be the most reliable estimates, although we recognize that this is a judgement call and others might come to slightly different decisions on grey versus colored lines. The overall aim of the figures is to show the wide range of research on this topic, realizing that a like with like comparison of different estimates is difficult. The categorization, discussion and assessment of the many studies is solely the view of the authors of this review, but the overall conclusions do not depend on these choices."

On a final note, once again, NOT a single climate scientist combines ECS with TCR ranges showing just exactly how much you know about the climate science.
There is not need to combine the ranges of TCR and ECS, as the range of ECS alone is from below 1C to at least 10 C,
per Figure 2 of the study, Which I included.
 
I have faith in the scientific method and not in the biased opinions of deniers.
Then why do you believe that CO2 is the primary driver, when the empirical evidence is saying that the
energy imbalance is happening in the shortwave radiation spectrum?
 
Then why do you believe that CO2 is the primary driver, when the empirical evidence is saying that the
energy imbalance is happening in the shortwave radiation spectrum?
Because the recent increase in shortwave radiation being absorbed by the earth is mostly due to feedbacks from the increased GHGs.
 
Because the recent increase in shortwave radiation being absorbed by the earth is mostly due to feedbacks from the increased GHGs.
That is not based on observed data but beliefs, and why would the new CO2 stop producing the warming perturbation that
supposedly caused the input to the feedbacks in the first place?
 
That is not based on observed data but beliefs,
Actually, it is based on data. That study you recently cited on Earths energy budget states that the increases in solar insulation are mostly due to melting snow and ice and a reduction in clouds.
and why would the new CO2 stop producing the warming perturbation that
supposedly caused the input to the feedbacks in the first place?
Damn long, didn’t we just establish a day or two ago that GHGs are still causing warming? Are you really going to go back to lying about this so soon? You usually wait a few months before you start lying again.
 
Actually, it is based on data. That study you recently cited on Earths energy budget states that the increases in solar insulation are mostly due to melting snow and ice and a reduction in clouds.

Damn long, didn’t we just establish a day or two ago that GHGs are still causing warming? Are you really going to go back to lying about this so soon? You usually wait a few months before you start lying again.
But you still have the inconsistency of why the greenhouse gas increases since 2002 have not been creating new warming perturbations.
Again added greenhouse gases will always have a positive forcing under the current theory.
If the warmer body radiation exceeded the forcing then it would no longer be causing warming.
 
But you still have the inconsistency of why the greenhouse gas increases since 2002 have not been creating new warming perturbations.
Again added greenhouse gases will always have a positive forcing under the current theory.
If the warmer body radiation exceeded the forcing then it would no longer be causing warming.
Oh God… right back to lying again.

Long, that study explicitly stated that GHGs are still creating new warming . Lord of Planar even agreed with that. Why do you insist on stating the opposite of what that study says repeatedly?
 
Oh God… right back to lying again.

Long, that study explicitly stated that GHGs are still creating new warming . Lord of Planar even agreed with that. Why do you insist on stating the opposite of what that study says repeatedly?
You are missing the point, forcing in the longwave radiation spectrum cannot simply turn off.
If the earlier forcing causes the initial warming perturbation, the later forcing would cause additional
warming (in the longwave radiation spectrum). I get that you think earlier forcing kicked off the feedbacks,
but that does not mean the forcing from later emissions would not happen.
 
Reference?
It has not changed.
Cook et al 2013
Among abstracts expressing a position on AGW, 97.1% endorsed the consensus position that humans are causing global warming.
Nasa Scientific Consensus
With that said, multiple studies published in peer-reviewed scientific journals1 show that climate-warming trends over the past century are extremely likely due to human activities.
Notice how neither says that Human CO2 emissions are causing global warming, but Humans and Human activity.
So Land use changes, as well as aerosol clearing are both also Human activities.
 
There is not need to combine the ranges of TCR and ECS, as the range of ECS alone is from below 1C to at least 10 C,
per Figure 2 of the study, Which I included.

And yet there is greater than 66% chance ECS is within the 1.5 degree range (2.5-4C) and greater than 90% chance it's within 3 degree range (2-5C).
 
Reference?

It has not changed.
Cook et al 2013

Nasa Scientific Consensus

Notice how neither says that Human CO2 emissions are causing global warming, but Humans and Human activity.
So Land use changes, as well as aerosol clearing are both also Human activities.

From your own NASA link:

"Scientific evidence continues to show that human activities (primarily the human burning of fossil fuels) have warmed Earth’s surface and its ocean basins, which in turn have continued to impact Earth’s climate."
 
And yet there is greater than 66% chance ECS is within the 1.5 degree range (2.5-4C) and greater than 90% chance it's within 3 degree range (2-5C).
In simulations of abrupt doubling and quadrupling of the CO2 level, and even that does not exclude the studies that found
much lower 2XCO2 sensitivities, even with ECS simulations.
 
From your own NASA link:

"Scientific evidence continues to show that human activities (primarily the human burning of fossil fuels) have warmed Earth’s surface and its ocean basins, which in turn have continued to impact Earth’s climate."
That is the opinion portion of the page, not the stated scientific consensus!
With that said, multiple studies published in peer-reviewed scientific journals1 show that climate-warming trends over the past century are extremely likely due to human activities.
To reach a consensus they had to broaden the scope to include any Human activity.
 
Because the recent increase in shortwave radiation being absorbed by the earth is mostly due to feedbacks from the increased GHGs.
Yet that science says otherwise. More CO2 should increase cloud cover. Not reduce it. This is what the aerosols are doing, like;y from Asia. More dark aerosols than ever before could be making the precipitation occur sooner. Less cosmic rays could be reducing how fast clouds for,. It easily be a product of both these hypothesis from papers.

Buzz, like I have stated for years. These sciences are still too infantile to make the types of explicit statements you insist on making. The entire AGW cult suffers from the D-K effect if they actually believe what they say.
 
Actually, it is based on data. That study you recently cited on Earths energy budget states that the increases in solar insulation are mostly due to melting snow and ice and a reduction in clouds.
The ice is also melting primarily due to surface insolation.
Damn long, didn’t we just establish a day or two ago that GHGs are still causing warming?
They have never stopped being a greenhouse gas.
Are you really going to go back to lying about this so soon? You usually wait a few months before you start lying again.
You simply refuse to accept anything that is heretical to your Bible. You are a good follower of the AGW cult, I give you that.
 
Oh God… right back to lying again.

Long, that study explicitly stated that GHGs are still creating new warming . Lord of Planar even agreed with that. Why do you insist on stating the opposite of what that study says repeatedly?
I agree they probably are. I have stated many times that I do not deny the possibility that Glitch may be correct.
 
That is the opinion portion of the page, not the stated scientific consensus!

To reach a consensus they had to broaden the scope to include any Human activity.

Here is a quote from the Fourth National Climate Assessment published by thirteen federal agencies. While also written and reviewed by leading scientists.

"In the absence of significant global mitigation action and regional adaptation efforts, rising temperatures, sea level rise, and changes in extreme events are expected to increasingly disrupt and damage critical infrastructure and property, labor productivity, and the vitality of our communities. Regional economies and industries that depend on natural resources and favorable climate conditions, such as agriculture, tourism, and fisheries, are vulnerable to the growing impacts of climate change. Rising temperatures are projected to reduce the efficiency of power generation while increasing energy demands, resulting in higher electricity costs. The impacts of climate change beyond our borders are expected to increasingly affect our trade and economy, including import and export prices and U.S. businesses with overseas operations and supply chains. Some aspects of our economy may see slight near-term improvements in a modestly warmer world. However, the continued warming that is projected to occur without substantial and sustained reductions in global greenhouse gas emissions is expected to cause substantial net damage to the U.S. economy throughout this century, especially in the absence of increased adaptation efforts. With continued growth in emissions at historic rates, annual losses in some economic sectors are projected to reach hundreds of billions of dollars by the end of the century—more than the current gross domestic product (GDP) of many U.S. states."

 
You are missing the point, forcing in the longwave radiation spectrum cannot simply turn off.
If the earlier forcing causes the initial warming perturbation, the later forcing would cause additional
warming (in the longwave radiation spectrum). I get that you think earlier forcing kicked off the feedbacks,
but that does not mean the forcing from later emissions would not happen.
Yes, the feedback percentage likely reduces as the source of the feedback increases. Otherwise we probably would have had thermal runaway long before mankind ever evolved.
 
And yet there is greater than 66% chance ECS is within the 1.5 degree range (2.5-4C) and greater than 90% chance it's within 3 degree range (2-5C).
Chances are for consideration. Not to be taken as fact.
 
Back
Top Bottom