With the options available, why did Obama choose to invoke executive privilege?

[Karl]

Knowing about a program and knowing that it was simply letting guns walk and ordering everyone to hush up about it are two different things entirely.

Indeed. The last several arguments in this thread, and Issa's tactics in general, point towards the latter. Based on info available, it appears that Holder inherited a rogue op, shut it down, and tried to minimize the political fallout. On the latter, Issa is trying trip him up as perpetrating some type of coverup.

This of course means that Issa is not interested in the guns, nor is he interested in Agent Terry's death -- those are all just a smokescreen for the unwashed masses while his real goal is to politically damage the administration after-the-fact. If he was truely outraged by F & F, he would be prosecuting the agents and officials in Arizona that actually facilitated the gunwalking -- who, in turn, would most likely rat out any higher-ups that had green-lighted the gunwalking. Since Issa is not trying to get the little fish to drop a dime on the big fish, it indicates he knows they have nothing incriminating on the big fish; he instead goes for the coverup, knowing that the big fish had no hand in the gunwalking.

It was Holder who said in to congress in February he did not hear of F&F until he shut it down, then retracted that obvious lie after it was "noticed" to be a lie.

No lie has been proven, and no retraction in that respect (Holder's claim of when he first became aware of F&F) is in evidence.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

The **** is deep here.

Issa has evidence, as reported today, in the form of sworn testimony from ATF field directors, that they reported to ATF Washington, and the DoJ, that Fast and Furious was a massive mistake and failure, in February of 2010. Those documents are part of the ones Holder is refusing to release. But the testimony is already sworn to.

Agent Terry was killed in December. Nine months later. Nothing was shut down until after that, when the whistleblowers went public.

Libtards are worried ****less on this one. They should be.

 

[Karl]

[...] As Law Enforcement officials, they had a "duty to act" as soon as they started losing track of the Assault Rifles in question due to the potential for loss of life. Common sense and duty to law enforcement dictates once they lost track of guns, shut the program down. They didn't do that. They failed to foresee that allowing un-tracked assault rifles in the hands of murderous drug cartels would constitute a "wanton disregard for human life". After all they were not allowing tire pressure gauges to cross the border, they were dealing with assault rifles and even hand grenades.

I would tend to agree with you from a philosophical standpoint. And I agree that letting the guns walk was way out of line as a law enforcement tactic. However -- the local Asst. U.S. Attorney (Burke) had said that the gunwalking was legal (WaPo w/link to Phoenix ATF briefing paper). So, even though I think we all agree that what the ATF was doing (letting guns walk) was wrong, the local legal eagle said it was okay.

How do ya slice that apple?

Of course, some ATF agents got fed up and blew the whistle after their supervisors blew them off, so here we are.

 

[Karl]

Issa has evidence [...]

Let's see it

Better check your pockets... he may have your car keys as well :lamo

 

[Karl]

Agent Terry was killed in December.

There is no evidence that Agent Terry was killed by a F&F gun. Why do you keep beating that propaganda horse? :beatdeadhorse

 

[Eighty Deuce]

There is no evidence that Agent Terry was killed by a F&F gun. Why do you keep beating that propaganda horse? :beatdeadhorse

At this point, I can only laugh. The two AK-47's recovered at the scene, having been discarded by the Mexicans, were FF guns. And there was a wounded Mexican there as well.

But whatever keeps one ignorant to the facts.

But before you go .. you seem a good one to ask: What comes first, being an American, or being an Obama supporter ?

 

[Karl]

At this point, I can only laugh. The two AK-47's recovered at the scene, having been discarded by the Mexicans, were FF guns. And there was a wounded Mexican there as well.

But whatever keeps one ignorant to the facts.

Where in your post is the fact that one of those guns killed Agent Terry?

 

[Eighty Deuce]

Where in your post is the fact that one of those guns killed Agent Terry?

Those AK's were just laying thre as part of a fallen clothes line.

What comes first, being an American, or being an Obama supporter ?

 

[Karl]

Those AK's were just laying thre as part of a fallen clothes line.

Agent Terry was killed with a clothesline? Odd, I though he was shot by a bullet that could not be linked to any particular weapon. But I suppose I'll have to defer to your superior command of the facts.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

............ But I suppose I'll have to defer to your superior command of the facts.

Correct.

Now, as to wondering what the Committee wants to get to the bottom of, that being why it wants the documents, take the time to watch this testimony.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

One more. Listen to the disgust by the Agent:

 

[Prof. Peabody]

Yes, but F and F was not part of Gunrunner until 7 - 8 months after that video was recorded.

So all you have in the video is the 2-month-in-office deputy AG admitting general knowledge of a Bush-era operation that they inherited. This is evidence of what, exactly?

I'm sure you think so but, where's the link showing "F and F was not part of Gunrunner until 7 - 8 months after that video was recorded." I'd like to see that.

Another, smaller probe occurred in 2007 under the same ATF Phoenix field division. It began when the ATF identified Mexican suspects who bought weapons from a Phoenix gun shop over a span of several months. The probe ultimately involved over 200 guns, a dozen of which were lost in Mexico. On September 27, 2007, ATF agents saw the original suspects buying weapons at the same store and followed them toward the Mexican border. The ATF informed the Mexican government when the suspects successfully crossed the border, but Mexican law enforcement were unable to track them.[4][10]

Less than two weeks later, on October 6, William Newell, then ATF's special agent in charge of the Phoenix field division, shut down the operation at the behest of William Hoover, ATF's assistant director for the office of field operations.[26] No charges were filed. Newell, who was special agent in charge from June 2006 to May 2011, would later play a major role in Operation Fast and Furious.[4][24]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ATF_gu...007:_Operation_Wide_Receiver_and_other_probes

October 2007, Operation Wide receiver was shut down. Show me da proof!

 

[Karl]

I'm sure you think so but, where's the link showing "F and F was not part of Gunrunner until 7 - 8 months after that video was recorded." I'd like to see that.

Sigh. It's right there in the Wikipedia link you just posted.

On October 26, 2009, a teleconference was held at the Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. to discuss U.S. strategy for combating Mexican drug cartels. Participating in the meeting were Deputy Attorney General David W. Ogden, Assistant Attorney General Lanny A. Breuer, ATF Director Kenneth E. Melson, Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) Administrator Michele Leonhart, Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation Robert Mueller and the top federal prosecutors in the Southwestern border states. They decided on a strategy to identify and eliminate entire arms trafficking networks rather than low-level buyers.[3][27][28] Those at the meeting did not suggest using the "gunwalking" tactic, but ATF supervisors would soon use it in an attempt to achieve the desired goals.[29] The effort, beginning in November, would come to be called Operation Fast and Furious

Clearly, F&F began in November 2009.
Clearly, the video the other poster was strutting about was recorded in March 2009 (it is so noted by the poster in post #26, as well as on YouTube IIRC).
Clearly, November is 8 months after March. At least I think so . . . . .

 

[Eighty Deuce]

Sigh. It's right there in the Wikipedia link you just posted.


Clearly, F&F began in November 2009.
Clearly, the video the other poster was strutting about was recorded in March 2009 (it is so noted by the poster in post #26, as well as on YouTube IIRC).
Clearly, November is 8 months after March. At least I think so . . . . .

So a Wikipedia entry trumps what we have on videotape.

Not.

 

[Prof. Peabody]

Agent Terry was killed with a clothesline? Odd, I though he was shot by a bullet that could not be linked to any particular weapon. But I suppose I'll have to defer to your superior command of the facts.

To believe your post, I defer to Hillary Clinton, "to believe this you must suspend all belief in reality". AK-47's on the ground, AK-47 bullet in Brian Terry, shot in the back. When Obama administration employees go to trial over this death, the jurors will need to "suspend all belief in reality" to believe the bullet didn't come from one of those two guns. Good Luck with that.

 

[Prof. Peabody]

Sigh. It's right there in the Wikipedia link you just posted. Clearly, F&F began in November 2009. Clearly, the video the other poster was strutting about was recorded in March 2009 (it is so noted by the poster in post #26, as well as on YouTube IIRC). Clearly, November is 8 months after March. At least I think so . . . . .

And that gets us closer to the truth how? So it was November not March. Nothing changes the fact that the Obama administration failed to shut down Fast and Furious after they started losing track of the guns that eventually got Agent Brian Terry shot in the back. You can herniate the minutiae all you want nothing will change the facts of the case.

 

[Karl]

So a Wikipedia entry trumps what we have on videotape. Not.

I thought we debunked the lie that your videotape mentioned Operation Fast and Furious, way back in post #43. It only mentioned Project Gunrunner. Even Prof. Peabody acknowledges that. Did you miss it?

 

[Eighty Deuce]

I thought we debunked the lie that your videotape mentioned Operation Fast and Furious, way back in post #43. It only mentioned Project Gunrunner. Even Prof. Peabody acknowledges that. Did you miss it?

"I thought ..... " from there, we understand that what follows might not be correct. Money used to finance this program, beginning in 2009, was included in Stimulus, passed in February. That the plan was to run guns was clearly discussed in March, via the tape. How about you tell us what "changed" to where "gunrunner" disappeared, and "Fast and Furious" started ? Thanks.

 

[Karl]

And that gets us closer to the truth how? So it was November not March. Nothing changes the fact that the Obama administration failed to shut down Fast and Furious after they started losing track of the guns that eventually got Agent Brian Terry shot in the back. You can herniate the minutiae all you want nothing will change the facts of the case.

LOL... you're the one altering the facts, which makes your alleged search for the truth rather suspect.

You do not have a fact that Terry was shot by an F&F weapon. Everyone in these threads know you don't have that fact. You know you don't have that fact. Yet you still claim it as fact. It simply boggles the mind that one would continue to repeat a known, proven falsehood. Yet, here we are.....

 

[Karl]

"I thought ..... " from there, we understand that what follows might not be correct. Money used to finance this program, beginning in 2009, was included in Stimulus, passed in February. That the plan was to run guns was clearly discussed in March, via the tape. How about you tell us what "changed" to where "gunrunner" disappeared, and "Fast and Furious" started ? Thanks.

I'm sorry, but I can't let you gloss over your earlier falsehood, upon which your increasingly circuitous argument is based.

Back in post #26 you posted a video that you, and the producer of the video, claimed as authorization of Fast & Furious in March 2009. Of course, it was only add'l funds for Project Gunrunner (which began in 2005), with no mention of F&F whatsoever. Now if you will admit that the video was perpetrating a falsehood, then I will address your post.

Otherwise, I see no point in addressing an argument based on obvious lies; no rational person should need to be convinced of its fallacy, and no irrational person could be convinced.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

I'm sorry, but I can't let you gloss over your earlier falsehood, upon which your increasingly circuitous argument is based.

Back in post #26 you posted a video that you, and the producer of the video, claimed as authorization of Fast & Furious in March 2009. Of course, it was only add'l funds for Project Gunrunner (which began in 2005), with no mention of F&F whatsoever. Now if you will admit that the video was perpetrating a falsehood, then I will address your post.

Otherwise, I see no point in addressing an argument based on obvious lies; no rational person should need to be convinced of its fallacy, and no irrational person could be convinced.

Sorry, but the active programs that had occured under Bush had ended before Obama took office. Seems you are caught up on giving something a "name", while ignoring the action.

Obama funded gun-running in Feb 2009, and his representatives spoke of gun-running beginning in March 2009. That is proven. Now, if you would like to submit evidence otherwise, besides Obama kneepads, we'll give it a look. Thanks.

 

[Karl]

Sorry, but the active programs that had occured under Bush had ended before Obama took office. Seems you are caught up on giving something a "name", while ignoring the action.

Obama funded gun-running in Feb 2009, and his representatives spoke of gun-running beginning in March 2009. That is proven. Now, if you would like to submit evidence otherwise, besides Obama kneepads, we'll give it a look. Thanks.

So, you're going to stick with the argument based upon proven lies and insults. That means, in the rational world, you lose.

Obama funded gun-running in Feb 2009

Inadvertently, yes. Can you prove intent?

and his representatives spoke of gun-running beginning in March 2009

If you posted evidence of that, I missed it. Please put up a post # and I'll review it.

 

[Eighty Deuce]

So, you're going to stick with the argument based upon proven lies and insults. That means, in the rational world, you lose.

Inadvertently, yes. Can you prove intent?

If you posted evidence of that, I missed it. Please put up a post # and I'll review it.

You are the judge of the "rational world" ? What's that, a University of Phoenix thing ?

Posts 26-27.

Gotta love "inadvertent funding" in February 2009. How did that happen !!!!! Does that mean no one was responsible for it ?

 

[Karl]

[...] Gotta love "inadvertent funding" in February 2009. How did that happen !!!!! ?

That they funded Project Gunrunner is not evidence that they knew it was walking guns. Any rational person knows that, Phoenix or not.

I'm sure you know it too, but can't admit it since it destroys the foundation of your argument.

 

[Karl]

Posts 26-27.

The video in post 26 has already been debunked -- it contains no mention of F&F. Your continued use of it to claim otherwise indicates that further debate is pointless -- your failure is clear to all.

The video in post 27, which I initially ignored due to the failure of 28, is more of the same (as I initially suspected); no mention of F&F, other than by the announcer, who is figuratively swimming in Kool Aid (I urge everyone to watch it as a classic example of zealotry). Napolitano's comments on interdicting/tracing guns in Mexico, in concert with Mexican authorities (near the end of the video), is surely a reference to Project Gunrunner, which began in 2005 and used those tactics.

The ATF began Project Gunrunner as a pilot project in Laredo, Texas, in 2005 and expanded it as a national initiative in 2006. Project Gunrunner is also part of the Department of Justice’s broader Southwest Border Initiative, which seeks to reduce cross-border drug and firearms trafficking and the high level of violence associated with these activities on both sides of the border.[4]

ATF had determined that the Mexican cartels had become the leading gun trafficking organizations operating in the southwest U.S. and is working in collaboration with other agencies and the Government of Mexico to expand the eTrace firearm tracing software system.[5] eTrace provides web based access to ATF’s Firearms Tracing System to allow law enforcement both domestically and internationally the ability to trace firearms encountered in connection with a criminal investigation to the first recorded purchaser[6][7][8] (who may have innocently sold the gun years ago). eTrace allows law enforcement to access their trace results directly (name and address of first purchaser) and offers the ability to generate statistical reports to analyze their trace data to estimate firearms trafficking trends or patterns.

Project Gunrunner - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia