With Affirmative Action gone, maybe we can make some real progress

[NatMorton]

I began writing this in one the many active Affirmative Action threads today, but I think this warrants its own thread.

Here's the problem top-end schools like Harvard have been facing for some time. They're in a bind facing two conflicting goals:

1. Be recognized as university accepting the best and most talented students.​

​

2. Have a diverse student body.​

The problem is that there is a racial education gap in America, particularly so for blacks, and there's no getting around that reality. No one likes it. Everyone wants to fix it. But it remains a stubborn problem for one very unpleasant reason: too a high percentage of black students attend our urban, traditional public school systems and those schools suck. It is folly to believe schools that cannot manage to get their students to read a the proper grade level will somehow produce a representative number of Harvard-ready applicants. Blacks make up about 13% of the US population, but they will never begin earning a 13% representation in our elite colleges until we solve the public education problem.

For this reason, it's good that we're finally enforcing this provision of The Civil Rights Act. Affirmative Action, i.e. well intentioned racial discrimination, has for too long been a means of papering over the reasons for the black achievement gap. It's time to begin working on root causes, and our public education system is a great place to start.

 

[Manc Skipper]

Real progress toward the 1950's?

 

[NatMorton]

Real progress toward the 1950's?

If you make an effort, I bet you do more than post an thinly veiled, idiotic personal attack.

I'm rooting for you.

 

[jnug]

I began writing this in one the many active Affirmative Action threads today, but I think this warrants its own thread.

Here's the problem top-end schools like Harvard have been facing for some time. They're in a bind facing two conflicting goals:

1. Be recognized as university accepting the best and most talented students.​

Harvard has never used that as a standard for admittance at least to its undergrad programs. I know.

​

2. Have a diverse student body.​

The problem is that there is a racial education gap in America, particularly so for blacks, and there's no getting around that reality. No one likes it. Everyone wants to fix it. But it remains a stubborn problem for one very unpleasant reason: too a high percentage of black students attend our urban, traditional public school systems and those schools suck. It is folly to believe schools that cannot manage to get their students to read a the proper grade level will somehow produce a representative number of Harvard-ready applicants. Blacks make up about 13% of the US population, but they will never begin earning a 13% representation in our elite colleges until we solve the public education problem.

Ridiculous and irrelevant to the issue.

For this reason, it's good that we're finally enforcing this provision of The Civil Rights Act. Affirmative Action, i.e. well intentioned racial discrimination, has for too long been a means of papering over the reasons for the black achievement gap. It's time to begin working on root causes, and our public education system is a great place to start.

Stop...you are embarrassing yourself....AGAIN.

 

[Greenbeard]

I see, in the entire United States, there aren’t 250 “Harvard-ready” black graduating seniors because black students can’t read at grade level. Thought-provoking.

 

[NolanVoyd]

If you make an effort, I bet you do more than post an thinly veiled, idiotic personal attack.

I'm rooting for you.

Legacy admissions are a far bigger problem than affirmative action ever was.

 

[NatMorton]

Harvard has never used that as a standard for admittance at least to its undergrad programs. I know.

Sorry, I've not only lived near Harvard most of my life, I've attended graduate level classes at Harvard (night school, not where I got my undergraduate degree). There's no doubt in my mind about how they want to be seen.

Ridiculous and irrelevant to the issue.

If you can make a rational case that struggling urban schools aren't part of the problem, make it.

Stop...you are embarrassing yourself....AGAIN.

You the one with the ignorant and foolish commentary here, not me.

But hey, you must have some firsthand experience at Harvard to be so sure of yourself. Please, tell us about it.

 

[NatMorton]

I see, in the entire United States, there aren’t 250 “Harvard-ready” black graduating seniors because black students can’t read at grade level. Thought-provoking.

You're not thinking it through. There are 250 in the upper tier of applicants.

 

[jnug]

Sorry, I've not only lived near Harvard most of my life, I've attended graduate level classes at Harvard (night school, not where I got my undergraduate degree). There's no doubt in my mind about how they want to be seen.

From your post:
1. Be recognized as university accepting the best and most talented students.
From my post:
Harvard has never used that as a "best and most talented students" standard for admittance at least to its undergrad programs. I know.

Having trouble with reading comprehension?

If you can make a rational case that struggling urban schools aren't part of the problem, make it.

Just made it. Harvard undergrad does not base its admissions on your "best and most talented students" standard.

You the one with the ignorant and foolish commentary here, not me.

Yeah but NO!

But hey, you must have some firsthand experience at Harvard to be so sure of yourself. Please, tell us about it.

see above...since you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension your entire response to my post is simply NONSENSE.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

I began writing this in one the many active Affirmative Action threads today, but I think this warrants its own thread.

Here's the problem top-end schools like Harvard have been facing for some time. They're in a bind facing two conflicting goals:

1. Be recognized as university accepting the best and most talented students.​

​

2. Have a diverse student body.​

The problem is that there is a racial education gap in America, particularly so for blacks, and there's no getting around that reality. No one likes it. Everyone wants to fix it. But it remains a stubborn problem for one very unpleasant reason: too a high percentage of black students attend our urban, traditional public school systems and those schools suck. It is folly to believe schools that cannot manage to get their students to read a the proper grade level will somehow produce a representative number of Harvard-ready applicants. Blacks make up about 13% of the US population, but they will never begin earning a 13% representation in our elite colleges until we solve the public education problem.

For this reason, it's good that we're finally enforcing this provision of The Civil Rights Act. Affirmative Action, i.e. well intentioned racial discrimination, has for too long been a means of papering over the reasons for the black achievement gap. It's time to begin working on root causes, and our public education system is a great place to start.

I mostly agree with this. I don’t think Affirmative Action was really even effective at accomplishing its goals in the first place. It often helped minorities that were already well off instead of lifting up ones that were really fighting to get out of poverty.

Also lmao

White women benefit most from affirmative action — and are among its fiercest opponents

The willingness to erase white women from the story of affirmative action is part of the problem.

www.vox.com

While public education for disadvantaged communities is definitely one thing, I think there are other factors that are even more important. Over policing disproportionately arrests Black people for non-violent offenses like smoking weed, even though White/Black people smoke weed at the same rate. There is massive underinvestment in minority communities, especially for starting up businesses, creating a lack of opportunities. A lot of work needs to be done to undo effects from redlining.

But generally affirmative action was trying to solve an issue downstream of the core problem; systemic racism that just creates worse outcomes at basically every stage for many minorities.

Also if we are getting rid of affirmative action we need to also get rid of legacy admissions.

 

[jnug]

I mostly agree with this. I don’t think Affirmative Action was really even effective at accomplishing its goals in the first place. It often helped minorities that were already well off instead of lifting up ones that were really fighting to get out of poverty.

Also lmao

White women benefit most from affirmative action — and are among its fiercest opponents

The willingness to erase white women from the story of affirmative action is part of the problem.

www.vox.com

While public education for disadvantaged communities is definitely one thing, I think there are other factors that are even more important. Over policing disproportionately arrests Black people for non-violent offenses like smoking weed, even though White/Black people smoke weed at the same rate. There is massive underinvestment in minority communities, especially for starting up businesses, creating a lack of opportunities. A lot of work needs to be done to undo effects from redlining.

But generally affirmative action was trying to solve an issue downstream of the core problem; systemic racism that just creates worse outcomes at basically every stage for many minorities.

Why do you think "fighting to get out of poverty" should have represented any sort of standard. Fighting to remain wealthy should have been disqualifying but there is a big gap between fighting to get out of poverty and fighting to stay wealthy.

 

[weaver2]

I began writing this in one the many active Affirmative Action threads today, but I think this warrants its own thread.

Here's the problem top-end schools like Harvard have been facing for some time. They're in a bind facing two conflicting goals:

1. Be recognized as university accepting the best and most talented students.​

​

2. Have a diverse student body.​

The problem is that there is a racial education gap in America, particularly so for blacks, and there's no getting around that reality. No one likes it. Everyone wants to fix it. But it remains a stubborn problem for one very unpleasant reason: too a high percentage of black students attend our urban, traditional public school systems and those schools suck. It is folly to believe schools that cannot manage to get their students to read a the proper grade level will somehow produce a representative number of Harvard-ready applicants. Blacks make up about 13% of the US population, but they will never begin earning a 13% representation in our elite colleges until we solve the public education problem.

For this reason, it's good that we're finally enforcing this provision of The Civil Rights Act. Affirmative Action, i.e. well intentioned racial discrimination, has for too long been a means of papering over the reasons for the black achievement gap. It's time to begin working on root causes, and our public education system is a great place to start.

LOL, always fun; listening to bigots define bigotry so that it doesn't include themselves.

 

[Roadvirus]

Legacy admissions are a far bigger problem than affirmative action ever was.

The Asians behind the Harvard mess would disagree with you.

 

[Mycroft]

Also if we are getting rid of affirmative action we need to also get rid of legacy admissions.

Affirmative action and legacy admissions are apples and oranges.

Affirmative action was a law. Schools HAD to abide by that law. Legacy admissions is a choice. Schools can have them or not.

Just because affirmative action is removed as a law, that doesn't mean that the choice for having legacy admissions needs to be removed.

 

[NolanVoyd]

The Asians behind the Harvard mess would disagree with you.

No they wouldn't.

LEegacy admissions hurt them far more than affirmative action. Legacies are about 30% of each class. Affirmative action a small fraction of that.

 

[j brown's body]

I began writing this in one the many active Affirmative Action threads today, but I think this warrants its own thread.

Here's the problem top-end schools like Harvard have been facing for some time. They're in a bind facing two conflicting goals:

1. Be recognized as university accepting the best and most talented students.​

​

2. Have a diverse student body.​

The problem is that there is a racial education gap in America, particularly so for blacks, and there's no getting around that reality. No one likes it. Everyone wants to fix it. But it remains a stubborn problem for one very unpleasant reason: too a high percentage of black students attend our urban, traditional public school systems and those schools suck. It is folly to believe schools that cannot manage to get their students to read a the proper grade level will somehow produce a representative number of Harvard-ready applicants. Blacks make up about 13% of the US population, but they will never begin earning a 13% representation in our elite colleges until we solve the public education problem.

For this reason, it's good that we're finally enforcing this provision of The Civil Rights Act. Affirmative Action, i.e. well intentioned racial discrimination, has for too long been a means of papering over the reasons for the black achievement gap. It's time to begin working on root causes, and our public education system is a great place to start.

The problem is folks like you who think blacks are inferior.

 

[trouble13]

Legacy admissions are a far bigger problem than affirmative action ever was.

Perhaps, but they are not illegal and Harvard likes their endowment checks

 

[trouble13]

The problem is folks like you who think blacks are inferior.

That isn't what he said. He is saying public schools are inferior. It would be interesting to know how many students at Harvard went to public schools

 

[Rucker61]

LOL, always fun; listening to bigots define bigotry so that it doesn't include themselves.

Does your definition of bigotry include you?

 

[NolanVoyd]

Perhaps, but they are not illegal and Harvard likes their endowment checks

They will be illegal soon enough. The affirmative action decision and its reasoning left the door wide open to banning legacy admissions.

 

[NatMorton]

Legacy admissions are a far bigger problem than affirmative action ever was.

How would doing away with that help black students?

We know what happens when the choice is left up to only academic performance.

 

[trouble13]

They will be illegal soon enough. The affirmative action decision and its reasoning left the door wide open to banning legacy admissions.

My family will be devastated by this

 

[j brown's body]

Perhaps, but they are not illegal and Harvard likes their endowment checks

Like the way the Grandfather Clause in voting wasn't illegal.

 

[Rucker61]

No they wouldn't.

LEegacy admissions hurt them far more than affirmative action. Legacies are about 30% of each class. Affirmative action a small fraction of that.

How is "legacy admission" defined?

 

[NolanVoyd]

How would doing away with that help black students?

We know what happens when the choice is left up to only academic performance.

Because about 30 % of slots at Harvard each year go to legacies, the vast majority of whom are white, and they get in, even if they are not as qualified. Because they Re legacies.

That means 30% of Harvard's seats each year go to less qualified because their parents went there. And those seats aren't open to more qualified kids.