why we know the 2A is an individual right[W:999]

[TurtleDude]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

Probably because they were not blind zealots speaking as uncompromising individuals but realized they were provided a document for governance that had to be both practical and workable in a society of people. But that is just my conclusion. I tried to channel a few of them over breakfast and my other-world skills seems to be lacking.

you just pulled that out of your shorts. That is nothing more than wishful thinking on your part completely devoid of ANY EVIDENCE whatsoever

SO THE NEXT TIME you demand someone PROVE the obvious to you, I will remember this fiction that you conjured up

you are beaten Haymarket. You NOTHING to even remotely suggest that men who believed that free people have an inalienable right to arms would adopt some moronic definition that allows the government to basically ban every arm

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

the evidence is in 641 for you regarding the central claim that BELIEF is at the core here.

that is worthless

the issue is not whether the beliefs of the founders are based on empirical evidence

the issue that you patently and constantly avoid (because you have no response to it) is that examining the belief system of a group is very important in determining the INTENTIONS of that group

the beliefs of the founders are HOSTILE to YOUR DEFINITION OF INFRINGE

you cannot refute that argument

and you cannot come close to establishing that people who BELIEVED in natural rights (whether such rights exist is IRRELEVANT) would adopt a definition that is CONTRARY TO THEIR OWN BELIEFS

so stop the ridiculous attempts to divert by claiming that the beliefs of the founders are not based on facts

that has NOTHING to do with the argument

 

[Crimefree]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

Two things: yes arms takes in all weapons... just google and this definition pops up

So that would include nuclear arms as well as any other weapon.

So why do you have a problem with that? Don't you not trust the people? Do you think they want to harm you? Are you frightened of the people?

Second, the operant clause here to define which arms citizens can bear is the Second Amendment. It DOES NOT specify ALL ARMS or even ANY ARM - only that there is a right to keep and bear arms. The people have that right and how it is satisfied or met is then a matter of public policy as to which arms they can have and which ones they cannot.

You are babbling again and trying to put words in the constitution that do not exist. Ill look over your mad hatter anti-social version and pass comment if you would provide a link.

Unless of course you take the tact that they can have nuclear weaponry or all others as well.

I would not have a problem with that. If you can afford it and maintain it go for it. The danger is not in weapons it is in governments that need to be controlled.

Do you take that position or do you agree that the peoples government can regulate such things?

You are first of all going to have to tell me why the government wants to regulate such things. Do for once try to be honest.

What are you afraid of?

 

[Crimefree]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

Which statement was that?

The one you did/could not read.

Originally Posted by haymarket
yes - the post from the poster where he claimed it.

The poster is claiming that the right to keep and bear arms gives one the ability and right to keep and bear ANY and ALL ARMS and the law cannot prevent that. That is not LOGIC- that is ABSURD. The Second provides no such right to bear ANY ARM you want to and never has.

What evidence do you have of YOUR statement being what was intended by the founders?

What is illogical and why?

What is absurd and why?

What is illogical about it. ARMS is an all encompassing term It includes everything that is an arm and excludes everything that is not an arm

The right clearly and unmistakably says the right to keep and bear ARMS, shall not be infringed.

Where did your subset come from and what is the collective name of your subset - "government approved arms"

 

[Crimefree]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

has anyone ever seen any proof that men who believed in natural rights would pick an extremely narrow definition of "infringed"

or that the founders intended that the federal government have almost unlimited power to INFRINGE on the RKBA

Only the people the constitution made a concerted effort to thwart. I can see why they did.

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

Only the people the constitution made a concerted effort to thwart. I can see why they did.

He knows that

1) the founders believed in natural rights including the inalienable right of free people to be armed

2) they intended to recognize that right in the Bill of Rights

unless you reject the above to statements, you cannot pretend the founders would have adopted a definition of "infringed" that would allow the federal government to do what Haymarket claims that the founders intended

Here is what is really going on

1) gun restrictionists-be they motivated by a fear of guns, a desire to pander to people who are fearful of gun crime or they want to punish conservatives through gun restrictions-know damn well that the founders did not want the federal government screwing around with what arms we can own

2) so these restrictionists engage in deliberate and studious dishonesty by claiming that the founders did not really intend to protect this natural right

and then they claim they are right because assholes in office who had the same hatred of the natural right of free men to be armed violated that right

 

[Buck Ewer]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

so you think that police have a greater right to self defense than other citizens? that is a common theme among government worshipers and statists. Your rants about fetishists really demonstrate the mindset of the anti rights coalition.

The police are not just defending themselves ...They are keeping the peace for, and defending, the public.
It only makes sense that with a broader and bigger defense job to accomplish that they have access to broader and bigger weapons.

 

[Crimefree]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

He knows that

1) the founders believed in natural rights including the inalienable right of free people to be armed

2) they intended to recognize that right in the Bill of Rights

It is interesting to note that some thought the very act of writing it down was a constraint on our right and that people would protect their rights anyway. One can only say thanks to some far sighted men who fully understood the full capabilities and force of government we the people would have to deal with in the future. Today they would shake their heads in horror at the greed for power resulting in our usurped rights. While recognised as a coming problem I do not think they had any idea of the stealth, deceit, greed and determination of governments to control the people.

One can only hope that citizens realise the scared duty they have in protecting their rights. To be safe from the form of government that tries to remove those rights unjustifiably in the quest for more power by orchestrating infringements of the second. Which undeniably has the function of keeping government in awe of citizens. I believe the founders would have included anti-aircraft guns as a means to do that to balance the standing army.

When people talk of such arms why is it always fear that decides the issue?

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

The police are not just defending themselves ...They are keeping the peace for, and defending, the public.
It only makes sense that with a broader and bigger defense job to accomplish that they have access to broader and bigger weapons.

that's idiotic on several counts

1) you are saying that other civilians should be handicapped when dealing with criminals

2) you obviously have no clue about firearms because "bigger" is not the issue-for example an elephant rifle is bigger than the common Glock 17 that most cops carry in many states

3) Cops almost always choose the time and place in which to confront criminals Other civilians never have that luxury. In reality, civilians who do not wear radios, body armor or have back up need more EFFECTIVE weapons for use against criminals than do civilian cops

4) you obviously don't trust citizens to own guns. It is moronic to say someone can be trusted with a 10 shot pistol but not a 17 shot pistol

 

[Buck Ewer]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

I was a federal law enforcement official for 24 years. You are lying. Some cops-usually the ones with their lips firmly planted on the asses of Democrat politicians might believe as you do. but they are only a small minority.

Lets look at your obvious lie. Civilians who are not cops carry pistols for self defense against criminals. so do cops. So your comment is clearly dishonest. Then again, when someone talks about "gun fetishes" we know we are not dealing with someone who is interested in an honest discussion about gun rights

and when you use such silly insults it is obvious that your issue is about the culture of gun owners, not trying to control criminals

Oh really?

WHAT LAW ENFORCEMENT SAYS ABOUT ASSAULT WEAPONS


Following several high-profile mass shootings and attacks on law enforcement involving military-style assault weapons, Congress enacted the federal Assault Weapons Ban in 1994. The ban expired on September 13, 2004 without any consideration or action by Congress, despite the pleas of law enforcement officials across the country. Today, our nation’s police find themselves increasingly outgunned by criminals armed with sophisticated firearms and detachable, high-capacity ammuniton magazines (the manufacture of magazines holding more than 10 rounds was prohibited under the federal ban). The following timeline examines law enforcement’s experience with assault weapons since the federal ban lapsed:


March 2, 2011-“There is no reason that a peaceful society based on the rule of law needs its citizenry armed with 30-round [ammunition] magazines,” states Los Angeles Police Chief Charlie Beck during a news conference.” Such magazines transform a gun “into a weapon of mass death rather than a home protection-type device,” Beck notes.

February 26, 2011-Referring to increasing seizures of semiautomatic assault weapons that are trafficked in from outside states, Brockton (Massachusetts) Police Department Captain Emanuel Gomes says, “We’re literally outgunned. You’re talking about the kind of firepower that can go through vehicles, through vests, and that can literally go through a house.”

January 16, 2011-After one of his officers is ambushed by a teenager wielding a semiautomatic AR-15 and fired at 26 times, Oklahoma City Police Chief Bill Citty tells The Oklahoman, “There are just more and more assault rifles out there, and it is becoming a bigger threat to law enforcement each day. They are outgunned.” Citty states that he sees “no practical reason” why a civilian would need an AR-15 or similiar military-style weapon.

November 21, 2010-Buffalo Police Commissioner Daniel Derenda states,”In my opinion, [AK-47 rifles and other high-powered semiautomatic assault weapons] exist for one purpose and one purpose only and that is to kill.”

November 15, 2010-After losing his son and another officer in a shootout to sovereign citizens armed with a semiautomatic AK-47, West Memphis [Arkansas] Police Chief Bob Paudert purchases 30 AR-15s for use by patrol officers in the field. “We’re going to protect our officers,” he says. “Our times have changed. And we’ve got to change with our times. We cannot allow our officers to continue to be killed.”

October 25, 2010-Ten national law enforcement organizations form the National Law Enforcement Partnership to Prevent Gun Violence. Founding members are the Commission on Accreditation for Law Enforcement Agencies, Inc., Hispanic American Police Command Officers Association, International Association of Campus Law Enforcement Administrators, International Association of Chiefs of Police, Major Cities Chief Association, National Association of Women Law Enforcement Executives, National Organization of Black Law Enforcement Executives, National Sheriffs’ Association, Police Executive Research Forum, and the Police Foundation. The partnership is described as “an unprecedented joint effort by law enforcement leaders to address gun violence in an era of shrinking law enforcement budgets and rising levels of officer deaths.” In their Statement of Principles, the new coalition states, “As law enforcement organizations, we believe the level and lethality of gun violence directed at police officers requires an organized and aggressive response from policy makers at the federal, state, and local levels.”

July 16, 2010-Following the shooting of Philadelphia police officer Kevin Livewell by gunmen wielding two semiautomatic assault rifles (an AK-47 and SKS) with 30-round magazines, Philadelphia Policy Deputy Commissioner Richard Ross tells the media, “These are state-of-the-art weapons … My firearms experts over here tell me that…no body armor that we have would have saved our officers from these weapons here. I mean, in fact, many of them are capable of slicing through a vehicle. This is just how deadly these weapons are.”Philadelphia Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey describes the SKS rifle as “a very high-powered weapon capable of firing numerous rounds-very, very quickly and very, very deadly.”

May 2010-A survey by the Police Executive Research Forum (PERF) of 164 police departments serving 100,000 or more people finds that 37% have seen an increase in the use of assault weapons in street crime. 38% report seeing an increase in the use semiautomatic firearms that accept high-capacity ammunition magazines in street crime.

January 7, 2010-Disgruntled employee Timothy Hendron, 51, enters ABB Inc. in St. Louis, Missouri and opens fire on his co-workers. Armed with two handguns, a shotgun, and a semiautomatic AK-47 rifle with high-capacity ammunition magazines, Hendron fires approximately 115 rounds, killing three and wounding five before taking his own life. Patrol officers initially arriving at the scene are held back from entering the plant. St. Louis Police Chief Daniel Isom explains, “Our officers…didn’t have sufficient weapon systems to engage a person with an AK-47.” One of the first officers to arrive on the scene, Lt. Alana Hauck, later recalls, “I got home, and my 4-year-old daughter comes and gives me a hug … That’s when it hits you, this guy had a high-powered rifle. The worst could have happened, and I could’ve never got that hug.”

September 13, 2009-”I’d be lying if I said it wasn’t scary” to face off against someone with an assault rifle, says Columbus [Ohio] Police Department Officer Chris Billman, 34, who was among those fired at during a 2004 incident [when Al Awwal Knowles, wanted in a double shooting, began firing an AK-47 from his Jeep while officers pursued him through Columbus' North Side neighborhoods]. “Handguns are dangerous, but you have a different perspective when someone is firing rounds from an AK-47. Potentially, your vest won’t stop it and your car won’t stop it.”

July 30, 2009-After a shootout between gangs, Boston Police Commissioner Edward F. Davis tells the Boston Globe, €œ[A semiautomatic AK-47 rifle] can lay down a lot of fire in an urban area where there is basically no cover from it. You can conceal yourself from these weapons, but they €™ll rip through a car. They €™ll rip through a telephone pole. They can rip through just about anything in an urban environment. Everybody understands when they read the morning paper that you have to push as much as you can to get these guns off the street.”

July 13, 2009-After a birthday party shootout involving a semiautomatic AK-47 in which two young people were killed and 10 wounded, Miami Police Chief John Timoney tells ABC News, “For me it’s a no-brainer. These are weapons of war. Under no circumstance do they belong in the cities of America. Now police officers are facing-and citizens are facing-these assault weapons. If we don’t stop it now, what’s it going to look like 10 years from now? Rambo becomes reality.”




€�

 

[Spartacus FPV]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

The police are not just defending themselves ...They are keeping the peace for, and defending, the public.

Not according to the Supreme Court (Warren vs DC)

 

[Buck Ewer]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

But wait there's more...

une 8, 2009-Criminal Christopher White ambushes Chesapeake, Virginia police officers from the back of a van with a semiautomatic AK-47, firing at least 30 rounds. Two rounds from the rifle go through Officer Sean Fleming’s Jeep before piercing his bullet-resistant vest, injuring him. “[Fleming] was still seated in the vehicle when he was assaulted,” Chesapeake Police Major T.D. Branch says. “Those type of weapons, depending on what kind of rounds, typically penetrate metal. They’re pretty powerful.”

May 11, 2009- €œThe fact that we have these relatively cheap, assault weapon-type firearms out there, it’s not only a hazard to the public, but in particular to police officers, €� said Fort Wayne Police Chief Rusty York, who declared his support for renewing the federal Assault Weapons Ban. €œIt’s proof that they continue to get into the hands of irresponsible people €¦ It’s a weapon of war, not of sport. I’m sure it will be a political battle, but the officers are out in the street fighting that battle every day. €�

May 4, 2009-Marion County sheriff’s deputies Roderic Marques and Matthew Nasworth chase criminal Victor Walker for approximately one mile after he flees during a traffic stop (Walker had commited a botched armed robbery at a Burger King earlier that day). Walker comes to a stop and opens fire on the deputies in their two vehicles with a semiautomatic AK-47 rifle. Bullets tear through the front of Nasworth’s vehicle and out the back, shredding everything they hit in between. Nasworth manages to get off only a single shot with his .45 caliber pistol and survives by pushing his torso under his steering wheel and behind the dashboard. Marques, who also cowered behind his dashboard, recalls, “I had two choices. I either back up or start engaging him. I remember it going through my head: ‘I’m overpowered. The firepower is too much.’”

March 21, 2009-An Oakland Police Department SWAT team follows violent criminal/rapist Lovelle Mixon into his sister’s bungalow apartment after Mixon shoots and kills two police officers following a routine traffic stop. Mixon lies prone in a back bedroom closet with a semiautomatic SKS assault rifle, firing through the door and walls of the closet at officers as they approach the room. He kills two more officers before being shot dead. An attorney representing officers involved in the incident, Harry Stern, describes their actions that day as “a remarkable display of heroism and gallantry in the face of unfathomable destruction.”

February 5, 2009-Major John Clark of the Charleston County Sheriff’s Office tells WCSC-TV: “It really makes us worry a lot, particularly when you consider the number of rounds fired during this homicide the other night. We were going up there with handguns, with Glocks. This guy has an AK-47. If a police officer had come up in that area, he would have definitely been outgunned. These are killing machines. They are not designed for recreational use.” The sheriff’s office announces that some of its deputies have received permission to patrol carrying their own semiautomatic assault rifles.

December 29, 2008-In a press release, the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund notes, €œ2007 was a wake-up call for law enforcement in our country, and law enforcement executives, officers, associations and trainers clearly heeded the call, with a renewed emphasis on officer safety training, equipment and procedures. The reduction in firearms-related deaths is especially stunning, given the tremendous firepower possessed by so many criminals today. €� The release states that one reason for the decline is “more officers wearing bullet-resistant vests over the past 20 years-vests have saved more than 3,000 law enforcement lives.”

August 27, 2008-Regarding the trend of North Carolina law enforcement recovering more military-style assault weapons at crime scenes, Franklin County Sheriff Pat Green tells WRAL-TV, “I’ve been in this business 25 years, and it’s just getting worse.”

June 1, 2008-Gunman David Delich (described as having “severe mental problems”) leads Tucson police officers on a crosstown car chase after firing more than 80 rounds from an assault rifle at several residential houses. During the chase, Delich kills officer Eric Hite with a shot to th head and wounds two Pima County sheriff’s deputies. When Delich surrenders and investigators search his car they find three assault rifles and two handguns. “He had dozens of magazines fully loaded and thousands of rounds,” says Rick Kastigar, the Pima County Sheriff’s Criminal Investigations Chief.

June 10, 2008-The Fort Lauderdale Police Department purchases 100 Colt AR-6520 rifles €œto provide officers adequate equipment to effectively resolve violent incidents. €�

May 17, 2008-Hundreds of officers with the Washington, D.C. Police Department are issued AR-15 rifles. The D.C. police department’s decision to arm patrol officers with semiautomatic rifles is promoted by commanders as a way to stay ahead of criminals. “We want to be prepared,” says D.C. Police Chief Cathy Lanier. “I want officers to have what they need to be safe.”

May 6, 2008-Thomas Krajewski, Sr., who held Sergeant Stephen Liczbinski of the Philadelphia Police Department in his arms after he was shot and mortally wounded by a semiautomatic SKS assault rifle, tells the Philadelphia Daily News, €œThere is absolutely no reason that anyone should be carrying around military-style assault weapons. I mean, we saw what a weapon like that did to a human body. I mean, I own guns and my sons and I hunt as well, but I don €™t have assault rifles or anything. There €™s no need for it. €�

April 3, 2008-The Associated Press reports that since 1993, the year before the federal Assault Weapons Ban took effect, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has recorded a more than sevenfold increase in the tracing of 7.62x39mm guns (which includes semiautomatic AK-47s) from crime scenes. The number of AK-type guns traced rose from 1,140 in 1993 to 8,547 in 2007. From 2005 (the first full year after the ban’s expiration) through 2007, ATF recorded an 11% increase in such tracings. “We’re in an arms race,” says Chaska, Minnesota Police Chief Scott Knight, the Chairman of the Firearms Committee of the International Association of Chiefs of Police.

April 3, 2008-Days before the ambush of Miami police officer Jose Somohano, who is shot and killed with a semiautomatic AK-47 on September 13, 2007, Miami Police Chief John Timoney agrees to let patrol officers carry assault rifles to help counter the use of such weapons by criminals. John Rivera, president of the Dade County Police Benevolent Association, pleads for the same for officers in the Miami-Dade Department, which protects more than 1.4 million people around the city. “It’s almost like we have water pistols,” he says.

March 16, 2008- €œIt doesn €™t matter what body armor you wear, €� says ATF Special Agent Tom Mangan about the ammunition fired by a semiautomatic AK-47 rifle. €œThat round is going through the door, through the vest and right out the other side €¦ It €™s just like a hot knife through butter. €�



January 15, 2008-Miami Police Chief John Timoney tells the Miami Herald that semiautomatic assault weapons have become “the weapon of choice among gangs here.” €œThey €™re everywhere, €� he says. €œAt $100 or $200, everyone can afford one of these killing machines. €�

 

[LagerHead]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

The police are not just defending themselves ...They are keeping the peace for, and defending, the public.
It only makes sense that with a broader and bigger defense job to accomplish that they have access to broader and bigger weapons.

The police are under no legal obligation to protect anyone. So then on whom does that responsibility fall if not the police?

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

Oh really?

several problems in that idiotic rant

1) what police think about our civil rights means NOTHING to me

2) if they call them assault weapons, they are lying morons

3) if they don't trust doctors, lawyers, cab owners and waitresses to own the same weapons they use, they should be stripped of their badges and declared unfit for duty

4) in 96 janet reno commissioned an expensive study of what LINE police officers thought of the CLinton AWB. 90% OPPOSED IT. the study was suppressed. Fortunately, the US Attorney in my district had a copy and I read it.

The Chief of Trenton NJ noted that his men were more likely to be killed by an escape zoo tiger than by a criminal with an assault weapon (whatever that term means)

calling semi automatic rifles weapons of war is generally a lie.


any cop who thinks that gun laws are going to stop people who are willing to shoot cops is too stupid to trust with a badge and a gun.

those assholes made the same claim 10 years ago when the Clinton gun ban went away

and guess what, they were assholes then and they are lying assholes now

 

[Buck Ewer]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

But wait ...there's more;

une 8, 2009-Criminal Christopher White ambushes Chesapeake, Virginia police officers from the back of a van with a semiautomatic AK-47, firing at least 30 rounds. Two rounds from the rifle go through Officer Sean Fleming’s Jeep before piercing his bullet-resistant vest, injuring him. “[Fleming] was still seated in the vehicle when he was assaulted,” Chesapeake Police Major T.D. Branch says. “Those type of weapons, depending on what kind of rounds, typically penetrate metal. They’re pretty powerful.”

May 11, 2009- €œThe fact that we have these relatively cheap, assault weapon-type firearms out there, it’s not only a hazard to the public, but in particular to police officers, €� said Fort Wayne Police Chief Rusty York, who declared his support for renewing the federal Assault Weapons Ban. €œIt’s proof that they continue to get into the hands of irresponsible people €¦ It’s a weapon of war, not of sport. I’m sure it will be a political battle, but the officers are out in the street fighting that battle every day. €�

May 4, 2009-Marion County sheriff’s deputies Roderic Marques and Matthew Nasworth chase criminal Victor Walker for approximately one mile after he flees during a traffic stop (Walker had commited a botched armed robbery at a Burger King earlier that day). Walker comes to a stop and opens fire on the deputies in their two vehicles with a semiautomatic AK-47 rifle. Bullets tear through the front of Nasworth’s vehicle and out the back, shredding everything they hit in between. Nasworth manages to get off only a single shot with his .45 caliber pistol and survives by pushing his torso under his steering wheel and behind the dashboard. Marques, who also cowered behind his dashboard, recalls, “I had two choices. I either back up or start engaging him. I remember it going through my head: ‘I’m overpowered. The firepower is too much.’”

March 21, 2009-An Oakland Police Department SWAT team follows violent criminal/rapist Lovelle Mixon into his sister’s bungalow apartment after Mixon shoots and kills two police officers following a routine traffic stop. Mixon lies prone in a back bedroom closet with a semiautomatic SKS assault rifle, firing through the door and walls of the closet at officers as they approach the room. He kills two more officers before being shot dead. An attorney representing officers involved in the incident, Harry Stern, describes their actions that day as “a remarkable display of heroism and gallantry in the face of unfathomable destruction.”

February 5, 2009-Major John Clark of the Charleston County Sheriff’s Office tells WCSC-TV: “It really makes us worry a lot, particularly when you consider the number of rounds fired during this homicide the other night. We were going up there with handguns, with Glocks. This guy has an AK-47. If a police officer had come up in that area, he would have definitely been outgunned. These are killing machines. They are not designed for recreational use.” The sheriff’s office announces that some of its deputies have received permission to patrol carrying their own semiautomatic assault rifles.

December 29, 2008-In a press release, the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund notes, €œ2007 was a wake-up call for law enforcement in our country, and law enforcement executives, officers, associations and trainers clearly heeded the call, with a renewed emphasis on officer safety training, equipment and procedures. The reduction in firearms-related deaths is especially stunning, given the tremendous firepower possessed by so many criminals today. €� The release states that one reason for the decline is “more officers wearing bullet-resistant vests over the past 20 years-vests have saved more than 3,000 law enforcement lives.”

August 27, 2008-Regarding the trend of North Carolina law enforcement recovering more military-style assault weapons at crime scenes, Franklin County Sheriff Pat Green tells WRAL-TV, “I’ve been in this business 25 years, and it’s just getting worse.”

June 1, 2008-Gunman David Delich (described as having “severe mental problems”) leads Tucson police officers on a crosstown car chase after firing more than 80 rounds from an assault rifle at several residential houses. During the chase, Delich kills officer Eric Hite with a shot to th head and wounds two Pima County sheriff’s deputies. When Delich surrenders and investigators search his car they find three assault rifles and two handguns. “He had dozens of magazines fully loaded and thousands of rounds,” says Rick Kastigar, the Pima County Sheriff’s Criminal Investigations Chief.

June 10, 2008-The Fort Lauderdale Police Department purchases 100 Colt AR-6520 rifles €œto provide officers adequate equipment to effectively resolve violent incidents. €�

May 17, 2008-Hundreds of officers with the Washington, D.C. Police Department are issued AR-15 rifles. The D.C. police department’s decision to arm patrol officers with semiautomatic rifles is promoted by commanders as a way to stay ahead of criminals. “We want to be prepared,” says D.C. Police Chief Cathy Lanier. “I want officers to have what they need to be safe.”

May 6, 2008-Thomas Krajewski, Sr., who held Sergeant Stephen Liczbinski of the Philadelphia Police Department in his arms after he was shot and mortally wounded by a semiautomatic SKS assault rifle, tells the Philadelphia Daily News, €œThere is absolutely no reason that anyone should be carrying around military-style assault weapons. I mean, we saw what a weapon like that did to a human body. I mean, I own guns and my sons and I hunt as well, but I don €™t have assault rifles or anything. There €™s no need for it. €�

April 3, 2008-The Associated Press reports that since 1993, the year before the federal Assault Weapons Ban took effect, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has recorded a more than sevenfold increase in the tracing of 7.62x39mm guns (which includes semiautomatic AK-47s) from crime scenes. The number of AK-type guns traced rose from 1,140 in 1993 to 8,547 in 2007. From 2005 (the first full year after the ban’s expiration) through 2007, ATF recorded an 11% increase in such tracings. “We’re in an arms race,” says Chaska, Minnesota Police Chief Scott Knight, the Chairman of the Firearms Committee of the International Association of Chiefs of Police.

April 3, 2008-Days before the ambush of Miami police officer Jose Somohano, who is shot and killed with a semiautomatic AK-47 on September 13, 2007, Miami Police Chief John Timoney agrees to let patrol officers carry assault rifles to help counter the use of such weapons by criminals. John Rivera, president of the Dade County Police Benevolent Association, pleads for the same for officers in the Miami-Dade Department, which protects more than 1.4 million people around the city. “It’s almost like we have water pistols,” he says.

March 16, 2008- €œIt doesn €™t matter what body armor you wear, €� says ATF Special Agent Tom Mangan about the ammunition fired by a semiautomatic AK-47 rifle. €œThat round is going through the door, through the vest and right out the other side €¦ It €™s just like a hot knife through butter. €�

 

[Buck Ewer]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

The police are under no legal obligation to protect anyone. So then on whom does that responsibility fall if not the police?

...To protect and serve...

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

The police are under no legal obligation to protect anyone. So then on whom does that responsibility fall if not the police?

I want Buck to tell us at what point is a citizen untrustworthy based on the capacity of his gun

in reality, if I cannot trust someone to own a Semi auto version of an AK 47, I sure don't want him having a single shot shotgun or a bolt action rifle

and if someone can be trusted with a rifle that a good shot like me can hit a human target at half a mile with, he certainly can be trusted with even a submachine gun

people who wet their shorts over guns tend to be completely ignorant about the fact that guns are guns and in different environments, the "effectiveness" of a given gun changes

a submachine gun is "deadly" at close quarters against massed targets. Its pretty worthless against a rifleman who is behind hard cover 250 meters away. an 50 Caliber Barrett is brutal against unsuspecting targets 1000 Meters away but would be worthless if you were attacked in an elevator. There, a snub nosed revolver or a knife would be far more effective

 

[haymarket]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

Caps = yelling, btw. You may want to calm down.

The only thing I have to 'believe' is that SCOTUS published an opinion on the matter, as quoted above.

Most of those caps were from Turtle. I only did the caps to emphasize the word BELIEF. But we have disagreed on this before and I utterly reject the idea that using caps is always yelling. I often use it simply to emphasize the key word.

You asked for proof of my claim. I provided it.

 

[Buck Ewer]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

Still more;

February 2007-Analyzing accounts in the news media, the Violence Policy Center documents 64 incidents in which law enforcement officers were confronted by gunmen with semiautomatic assault weapons between March 1, 2005 and February 28, 2007. In 16 of these incidents law enforcement officers were shot; four times fatally.

August 24, 2006-San Francisco police tell ABC-7 that they are now seizing 100 guns from crime scenes every month, many of them semiautomatic assault weapons such as Mac-9s, Mac-10s, AK-47s, etc. San Francisco Police Deputy Chief Morris Tabak says that about five percent of the firearms seized are assault type weapons, adding, “These are what could be described only as anti-personnel weapons.” San Francisco Police Officers Association President Gary Delagnes says, “Just about every crook you run into out there is a drug dealer or a gang banger’s got one of these weapons. And it’s putting our officers’ lives at risk.”

August 5, 2006-Dade County, Florida law enforcement reports seeing more assault weapons being used in crimes. Miami homicide detective Lt. John Buhrmaster explains the trend in the following terms: “Inflicting fear with power. That’s a big factor why those assault rifles are being used.” Citing the expiration of the federal Assault Weapons Ban, Miami Detective Delrish Moss says, “The fact that it is easier to obtain them legally is a problem because they end up in the hands of criminals.” “There was nothing positively gained by the lifting of the ban on assault weapons by the government,” adds Miami-Dade Police Director Robert Parker.

June 7, 2005-The Chicago Police Department reports a 10% increase in the number of assault weapons seized from crime scenes since the federal Assault Weapons Ban expired. Chicago Police Superintendent Phil Cline states, “These are guns that can shoot up to 30 rounds with a couple pulls of the trigger and it puts our police in grave danger out there. So we €™d like still to see some kind of ban, either by the state or federally.”

August 9, 2004-States United to Prevent Gun Violence gathers a list of over 1,900 police chiefs, sheriffs, and county prosecutors who support “renewing and strengthening” the federal Assault Weapons Ban. Some of the names on the list include Chief John Wilson of Montgomery, Alabama; Chief Randy Henderlite of the Glendale, Arizona Police Department; the Greenwood, Arkansas Police Department; Cam Sanchez, president of the California Police Chiefs Association; the Daytona Beach, Florida Police Department; the Cicero, Illinois Police Department; Baltimore City, Maryland Police Commissioner Kevin Clark; Colonel Tadarial Sturdivant of the Michigan State Police; the East Rutherford, New Jersey Police Department; the Nassau County, New York Police Department; the Philadelphia, Pennsylvania Police Department; and San Antonio, Texas Police Department Chief Albert Ortiz.

June 2004-A study commissioned by the Department of Justice finds, “Attacks with semiautomatics-including assault weapons and other semiautomatics equipped with large capacity magazines-result in more shots fired, more persons hit, and more woundeds infliced per victim than do attacks with other firearms.” The study also reports, “Assault weapons account for a larger share of guns used in mass murders and murders of police, crimes for which weapons with greater firepower would seem particularly useful.”

April 27, 2004-Standing with other law enforcement leaders from across the country to demand renewal of the Assault Weapons Ban, Los Angeles Police Chief William Bratton states, “There is a reason that these [assault] weapons are so appealing to criminals. They are designed to be easily concealed and kill as many people as possible as quickly as possible. Congress must act and act now to protect the American public and our police officers from these deadly weapons. This is about public safety and law enforcement.”

May 2003-The Violence Policy Center releases the “Officer Down” report, which finds that at least 41 of the 211 law enforcement officers slain in the line of duty between January 1, 1998, and December 31, 2001, were killed with assault weapons.

1994-In an analysis of assault weapons, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) writes, “Assault weapons were designed for rapid fire, close quarter shooting at human beings. That is why they were put together the way they were. You will not find these guys in a duck blind or at the Olympics. They are mass produced mayhem.” The ATF describes assault weapons as “large capacity, semiautomatic firearms designed and configured for rapid fire, combat use … Most are patterned after machine guns used by military forces.”

 

[TurtleDude]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

...To protect and serve...

sorry, you are ignorant of the law. Supreme court cases have proven Lagerhead right and you WRONG.

try again

 

[haymarket]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

There is no evidence of anything in 641. I thought you went to collage, don't you know how to properly cite a source?

I have not made a collage in years now.

And in 641 there are quotes from Turtle going on about BELEIF - just as I stated and just as you asked for.

 

[haymarket]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

your attempt to include nukes is dishonest and patently silly

Even some of your fellow gun advocates agree that nuclear weapons constitute arms.

So you lose even among the crowd which normally backs you to the hilt.

 

[haymarket]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

I was a federal law enforcement official for 24 years.

In this unnamed position as a "federal law enforcement official for 24 years" what did you do in it that gives you claimed expertise and knowledge in this area?

Lets look at your obvious lie. Civilians who are not cops carry pistols for self defense against criminals.

Cops carry the weapons they do as tools of their job. This is true of cops in countries all over the world even those which have repressive laws about civilians being able to own weapons. The Second Amendment has not a darn thing to do with it.

Pretending anything else is what you accused the poster, Buck Ewer of - a lie.

 

[Crimefree]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

Oh really?

Yes really.

I'm not really quite sure how what law enforcement thinks is of any real relevance. Are law enforcement better equipped to pronounce on our safety and follow the same rules themselves? Is law enforcement safety more important than citizens safety?

You have not shown that so can you can you do it now.

 

[Buck Ewer]

Re: why we know the 2A is an individual right

Even some of your fellow gun advocates agree that nuclear weapons constitute arms.

So you lose even among the crowd which normally backs you to the hilt.

Nuclear arms race

The nuclear arms race was a competition for supremacy in nuclear warfare between the United States, the Soviet Union, and their respective allies during the Cold War. During the Cold War, in addition to the American and Soviet nuclear stockpiles, other countries developed nuclear weapons, though none engaged in warhead production on nearly the same scale as the two superpowers.

Nuclear arms race - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Arms are arms.
You can't change the meaning of the word to suit your agenda.