Why we had to drop the A bombs on Japan

[vegas giants]

They lie to themselves in their own internal discussions? Yeah, no. If the Soviets were such a big motivator for the Emperor he would have said that at some point. But he didn't, while he did expressly reference the bomb multiple times.

You have no idea what they said. Just what they say they said.

 

[Jredbaron96]

You think the emperor would let his people starve to death but not be bombed to death with atomic weapons

More people died in the conventional bombing of Japan than the atomic bombs and it did not push the Emperor to seek terms.

Why do you think his sense of morality would suddenly kick when Japanese citizens getting burned alive didnt?

 

[vegas giants]

More people died in the conventional bombing of Japan than the atomic bombs and it did not push the Emperor to seek terms.

Why do you think his sense of morality would suddenly kick when Japanese citizens getting burned alive didnt?

Then why surrender at all? The emperor does not want his people to die from atomic weapons but is fine if they starve to death?

What's new.

Russia enters the war


Ward Wilson wrote that "after Nagasaki was bombed only four major cities remained which could readily have been hit with atomic weapons", and that the Japanese Supreme Council did not bother to convene after the atomic bombings because they were barely more destructive than previous bombings. He wrote that instead, the Soviet declaration of war and invasion of Manchuria and South Sakhalin removed Japan's last diplomatic and military options for negotiating a conditional surrender, and this is what prompted Japan's surrender. He wrote that attributing Japan's surrender to a "miracle weapon", instead of the start of the Soviet invasion, saved face for Japan and enhanced the United States' world standing.[108]

 

[Jredbaron96]

Then why surrender at all? The emperor does not want his people to die from atomic weapons but is fine if they starve to death?

Because what the atomic bombings represented was something worse; an extinction that Japan would be powerless to stop.

Japan had been bombed plenty of times before Hiroshima, and in some cases (like the firebombing of Tokyo), these raids killed more people than the atomic bombings. With that knowledge, it stands to ask; why was the atomic bombing such an insurmountable threat that Japan was forced to "bear the unbearable"?

Because, simply put, the atomic bomb represented a latch key game changer. Japan had been bombed relentlessly before, but during raids which required hundreds of bombers dropping tens of thousands of explosives. Compared to a single bomber dropping a single atom bomb, the atomic threat looked like a sudden escalation in the capabilities of the United States to harm the Japanese home islands.

We know now, of course, that atom bombs were in fact extremely costly to produce, and in fact were almost hand made given the complex and often theoretical design that went into them. It cost more to make, field, and employ single a atomic weapon than it did to construct, arm and conduct an air raid of a hundred B-29s.

But the Japanese didn't know this. All they knew was that the Americans had a bomb that could do what it took a thousand bombers to do for the same level of destruction. When preparing for the invasion of the Japanese homeland, the Imperial Japanese High Command was expecting to face waves upon waves of bombers that would blot out the sky, shielding a vast invasion force of thousands of ships carrying millions of troops. They had never expected instead to face a handful of bombers dropping a handful of bombs, but inflicting essentially the same catastrophic damage.

It's important to realize that an invasion of Japan as forecast in Operation Downfall would've fit in perfectly with the Imperial Japanese mindset. While they did not want an invasion of Japan per se, such a battle, a final clash between the land of the rising sun against the foreign devils and barbarians would've fit in perfectly with the ultra-nationalist bushido mindset that had been imprinted on Japanese culture since the end of the Russo-Japanese War. This was the final battle, where the 1000 year Empire would establish itself as the true supreme power. It didn't matter how many Japanese were killed, at least to the national leadership, because it was seen as a preferable alternative than surrender.

But the big part of that was the idea that it would turn out just like Operation Downfall; a conventional invasion of Japan. Atomic bombing changed all that.

There would be no great battle. There would be no final, climatic struggle. There would just be the atom bombs, just a handful, dropped on the major cities and centers of population, that would reduce Japan and the Empire to nothing but a shattered wasteland. It would be worse than a surrender, it would be a defeat which they would be powerless to reverse or stop.

"Moreover, the enemy now possesses a new and terrible weapon with the power to destroy many innocent lives and do incalculable damage. Should we continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization."

-Emperor Hirohito

Note: I do believe that eventually starvation would force Japan to surrender as food riots broke out across Japan, but that would not be a quick thing nor would it result in only minor casualties.

 

[vegas giants]

Because what the atomic bombings represented was something worse; an extinction that Japan would be powerless to stop.

Japan had been bombed plenty of times before Hiroshima, and in some cases (like the firebombing of Tokyo), these raids killed more people than the atomic bombings. With that knowledge, it stands to ask; why was the atomic bombing such an insurmountable threat that Japan was forced to "bear the unbearable"?

Because, simply put, the atomic bomb represented a latch key game changer. Japan had been bombed relentlessly before, but during raids which required hundreds of bombers dropping tens of thousands of explosives. Compared to a single bomber dropping a single atom bomb, the atomic threat looked like a sudden escalation in the capabilities of the United States to harm the Japanese home islands.

We know now, of course, that atom bombs were in fact extremely costly to produce, and in fact were almost hand made given the complex and often theoretical design that went into them. It cost more to make, field, and employ single a atomic weapon than it did to construct, arm and conduct an air raid of a hundred B-29s.

But the Japanese didn't know this. All they knew was that the Americans had a bomb that could do what it took a thousand bombers to do for the same level of destruction. When preparing for the invasion of the Japanese homeland, the Imperial Japanese High Command was expecting to face waves upon waves of bombers that would blot out the sky, shielding a vast invasion force of thousands of ships carrying millions of troops. They had never expected instead to face a handful of bombers dropping a handful of bombs, but inflicting essentially the same catastrophic damage.

It's important to realize that an invasion of Japan as forecast in Operation Downfall would've fit in perfectly with the Imperial Japanese mindset. While they did not want an invasion of Japan per se, such a battle, a final clash between the land of the rising sun against the foreign devils and barbarians would've fit in perfectly with the ultra-nationalist bushido mindset that had been imprinted on Japanese culture since the end of the Russo-Japanese War. This was the final battle, where the 1000 year Empire would establish itself as the true supreme power. It didn't matter how many Japanese were killed, at least to the national leadership, because it was seen as a preferable alternative than surrender.

But the big part of that was the idea that it would turn out just like Operation Downfall; a conventional invasion of Japan. Atomic bombing changed all that.

There would be no great battle. There would be no final, climatic struggle. There would just be the atom bombs, just a handful, dropped on the major cities and centers of population, that would reduce Japan and the Empire to nothing but a shattered wasteland. It would be worse than a surrender, it would be a defeat which they would be powerless to reverse or stop.

"Moreover, the enemy now possesses a new and terrible weapon with the power to destroy many innocent lives and do incalculable damage. Should we continue to fight, not only would it result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization."

-Emperor Hirohito

I edited my post.

The big change was Russia entering the war

 

[Jredbaron96]

I edited my post.

The big change was Russia entering the war

The Emperor, who ultimately made the decision to surrender, does not mention the Soviets at all. He does however, mention the atomic bombs quite often. It's clear where his attention was focused.

 

[vegas giants]

The Emperor, who ultimately made the decision to surrender, does not mention the Soviets at all. He does however, mention the atomic bombs quite often. It's clear where his attention was focused.

My post covers that. He wanted to save face

 

[Jredbaron96]

My post covers that. He wanted to save face

No where in your post does it say that the Emperor was trying to save face. Also, save face for what purpose?

and that the Japanese Supreme Council did not bother to convene after the atomic bombings because they were barely more destructive than previous bombings.

This is completely untrue! A meeting was called specificly to discuss Hiroshima and it was after learning of Nagisaki that they decided to ask the Emperor for guidance.

 

[vegas giants]

No where in your post does it say that the Emperor was trying to save face. Also, save face for what purpose?



This is completely untrue! A meeting was called specificly to discuss Hiroshima and it was after learning of Nagisaki that they decided to ask the Emperor for guidance.

Read it again.

Ward Wilson wrote that "after Nagasaki was bombed only four major cities remained which could readily have been hit with atomic weapons", and that the Japanese Supreme Council did not bother to convene after the atomic bombings because they were barely more destructive than previous bombings. He wrote that instead, the Soviet declaration of war and invasion of Manchuria and South Sakhalin removed Japan's last diplomatic and military options for negotiating a conditional surrender, and this is what prompted Japan's surrender. He wrote that attributing Japan's surrender to a "miracle weapon", instead of the start of the Soviet invasion, saved face for Japan and enhanced the United States' world standing.[1

 

[Jredbaron96]

and that the Japanese Supreme Council did not bother to convene

Completely wrong! They met specifically to discuss the impact!

Now, if your argument is that the military wasn't swayed, then yes that's true. Neither the bombings nor Soviet entry into the war changed the make up of the Big Six.

He wrote that instead, the Soviet declaration of war and invasion of Manchuria and South Sakhalin removed Japan's last diplomatic and military options for negotiating a conditional surrender, and this is what prompted Japan's surrender.

The Japanese learning of Soviet intentions to invade did not result in any chances to perception of surrender. It was during the meeting discussing the turn of events where the military specifically rejected calls to surrender from Togo and Suzuki.

He wrote that attributing Japan's surrender to a "miracle weapon", instead of the start of the Soviet invasion, saved face for Japan and enhanced the United States' world standing.[1

This makes no sense as the Emperor has no reason to save face.

 

[vegas giants]

Completely wrong! They met specifically to discuss the impact!

Now, if your argument is that the military wasn't swayed, then yes that's true. Neither the bombings nor Soviet entry into the war changed the make up of the Big Six.



The Japanese learning of Soviet intentions to invade did not result in any chances to perception of surrender. It was during the meeting discussing the turn of events where the military specifically rejected calls to surrender from Togo and Suzuki.



This makes no sense as the Emperor has no reason to save face.

Your opinion is noted. They actually did meet but not until three days...after russia entered the war

 

[Jredbaron96]

Your opinion is noted

Your complete lack of evidence is noted, as is your surrender.

 

[vegas giants]

Your complete lack of evidence is noted, as is your surrender.

I accept your concession. They did not meet until after Russia invaded manchuria which is what I believe he meant to say

 

[Jredbaron96]

They did not meet until after Russia invaded manchuria which is what I believe he meant to say

The Japanese were aware that the Soviets intended to cancel their nonaggression pact and join the war. While there was plenty of denial in Tokyo, by August 6th that was no longer a question of if but when.

And it changed no one's mind. We have that in writing and testimony.

 

[vegas giants]

The Japanese were aware that the Soviets intended to cancel their nonaggression pact and join the war. While there was plenty of denial in Tokyo, by August 6th that was no longer a question of if but when.

And it changed no one's mind. We have that in writing and testimony.

Show it. Show the written record

 

[Jredbaron96]

Show it. Show the written record

"An officer entered the room with the report that a second atomic bomb had been dropped. This disquieting news, coupled with that from Manchuria, brought the pent-up resentment of Anami, Umezu and Toyoda into the open.
They...adamantly refused to accept the Potsdam Proclamation even if the Emperor was allowed to reign. They insisted, in addition, that war criminals be tried by the Japanese themselves, that the Army be demobilized by Japanese officers, and that the occupation force be limited."

Toland, John. The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1936-1945 (Modern Library War) . Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

 

[vegas giants]

"An officer entered the room with the report that a second atomic bomb had been dropped. This disquieting news, coupled with that from Manchuria, brought the pent-up resentment of Anami, Umezu and Toyoda into the open.
They...adamantly refused to accept the Potsdam Proclamation even if the Emperor was allowed to reign. They insisted, in addition, that war criminals be tried by the Japanese themselves, that the Army be demobilized by Japanese officers, and that the occupation force be limited."

Toland, John. The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1936-1945 (Modern Library War) . Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

That is not the written account of what was said.


It is his opinion of that record.


Cone on...let's see it

 

[Jredbaron96]

It is his opinion of that record.

That's not an opinion, it's based on the testimony given by Japanese leaders after the war.

If you have an actual reason to suggest that Toland's interpretation is wrong besides you not wanting it to be true, feel free to point out.

 

[vegas giants]

That's not an opinion, it's based on the testimony given by Japanese leaders after the war.

If you have an actual reason to suggest that Toland's interpretation is wrong besides you not wanting it to be true, feel free to point out.

So you have not seen the actual record?

Got it. Thanks

 

[Jredbaron96]

So you have not seen the actual record.

So now you are making up the claim that Toland lied in his book because he said something that proves you wrong. Meanwhile you haven't provided a lick of evidence beyond what you grabbed off Wikipedia.

Your surrender is noted.

 

[vegas giants]

So now you are making up the claim that Toland lied in his book because he said something that proves you wrong. Meanwhile you haven't provided a lick of evidence beyond what you grabbed off Wikipedia.

Your surrender is noted.

He certainly offered his opinion.

Deny that

 

[Jredbaron96]

He certainly offered his opinion.

Quoting testimony from the Far East Tribunal is not an opinion, lol

Your dodge is noted.

 

[vegas giants]

Io

Quoting testimony from the Far East Tribunal is not an opinion, lol

Your dodge is noted.

Quotes? What quotes? Please show a direct quote from that meeting


You know....like I gave you. Lol

 

[Jredbaron96]

Io
Quotes? What quotes? Please show a direct quote.

Imao

General Anami, when Foreign Minister Suzuki proposed surrender:
“I oppose the opinions of the Foreign Minister...I am quite sure we could inflict great casualties on the enemy, and even if we fail in the attempt, our hundred million people are ready to die for honor, glorifying the deeds of the Japanese race in recorded history!”

Toland, John. The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1936-1945 (Modern Library War) . Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

 

[vegas giants]

Imao

General Anami, when Foreign Minister Suzuki proposed surrender:
“I oppose the opinions of the Foreign Minister...I am quite sure we could inflict great casualties on the enemy, and even if we fail in the attempt, our hundred million people are ready to die for honor, glorifying the deeds of the Japanese race in recorded history!”

Toland, John. The Rising Sun: The Decline and Fall of the Japanese Empire, 1936-1945 (Modern Library War) . Random House Publishing Group. Kindle Edition.

Uh....so? Where is the quotes about the bomb???


I'm waiting