Why we had to drop the A bombs on Japan

[Questerr]

They had enough amphibious capability to capture the Kuril Islands.

Stalin was seriously contemplating capturing Hokkaido, and the US was seriously contemplating asking him to capture Hokkaido, so they both must have felt that it was a possibility.

The Kurils had a garrison of less than a thousand soldiers. Plus they were visible from Russian territory. There was basically no water to cross.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

We also had convinced Japan that we had 100 more atomic bombs. There would be no way to defend against invasion with atomic bombs being dropped on their defending force.

We actually were going to use a bunch of A-bombs to clear the way ahead of our invasion.

Note this discussion between General John E. Hull (one of General Marshall's top aides) and Colonel Lyle E. Seeman (one of General Groves' top aides) on August 13, 1945:

General Hull: That is the information I wanted. The problem now is whether or not, assuming the Japanese do not capitulate, continue on dropping them every time one is made and shipped out there or whether to hold them up as far as the dropping is concerned and then pour them all on in a reasonably short time. Not all in one day, but over a short period. And that also takes into consideration the target that we are after. In other words should we not concentrate on targets that will be of the greatest assistance to an invasion rather than industry, morale, psychology, etc.

Colonel Seeman: Nearer the tactical use rather than other use.

General Hull: That is what it amounts to. What is your own personal reaction to that?

Colonel Seeman: I have studied that a good deal. Our own troops would have to be about six miles away I am not sure that the Air Forces could place it within 500 feet of the point we want. Of course, it is not that "pinpoint". Then the stage of development has to be considered. The work it is liable to be used for the more or less has to be explosive effect. It would be just a gamble putting or sending those troops though.

General Hull: Not the same day or anything like that. We might do it a couple or three days before. You plan to land on a certain beach. Behind which you know there is a good road communication and maybe a division or two of Japanese troops. Neutralization of that at some time from H Hour of the landing back earlier, maybe a day or two or three. I don't anticipate that you would be dropping it as we do other type bombs that are in support of the infantry. I am thinking about neutralizing a division or a communication center or something so that it would facilitate the movement ashore of troops.

Colonel Seeman: That is the preferable use at this time from that standpoint. The weapon we have is not a penetration weapon. The workmanship is not as good as possible. It is much better than average workmanship. We are still developing it though.

General Hull: From this on more or less of the timing factor, how much time before the troops actually go into that area do you think would be the safety factor? Suppose you did get a dud or an incomplete explosion, what safety factor should you consider, one, two, three days?

Colonel Seeman: I think we are sending some people over to actually measure that factor. I think certainly by within 48 hours that could be done. Everything is going so fast. We would like to train people and get them in a combat spirit to do that. I think the people we have are the best qualified in that line. Of course, as you say, if it is used back in a kind of reserve line or in a reserve position or a concentration area but that you wouldn't be up against right away.

General Hull: I don't think you would land at eight o'clock in the morning and you would drop it at six o'clock, out the day before, even from the tactical standpoint without regard to when it fails to go off or something like that.

Colonel Seeman: Another thing you may be likely to consider is that while you are landing you might not want to use it as it could be a dud. It is not something that you fool around with.

https://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/72.pdf

 

[swing_voter]

We dropped the A-bombs on Japan because we wanted to make Japan surrender.

This is the truth of it.


Japan wasn't surrendering. We issued them an ultimatum and they ignored it.

We had to do something.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

We also had convinced Japan that we had 100 more atomic bombs. There would be no way to defend against invasion with atomic bombs being dropped on their defending force.

And also this interview with General Marshall in 1957 (there were "too many characters" to put this in my precious post):

Page 26

There were supposed to be nine more bombs completed in a certain time. And they would be largely in time for the first landing in the southern tip of Japan. There were three corps to come in there as I recall. They didn’t know about it at the time but I had gone very carefully into the examinations out in New Mexico as to the after-effects of the bomb because we were having in mind exploding one or two bombs before these landings and then having the landing take place and reserving the other bomb or bombs for the later movements of any Japanese reinforcements that might try to come up. And it was decided then that the casualties from the actual fighting would be very much greater than might occur from the after-effects of the bomb action. So there were to be three bombs for each corps that was landing. One or two, but probably one as a preliminary, then the landing, then another one further inland against the immediate supports and then the third one against any troops that might try to come through the mountains from up on the Inland Sea. And that was the rough idea in our minds.

http://www.marshallfoundation.org/l...ites/16/2014/05/Marshall_Interview_Tape14.pdf

 

[TypicalRussian]

Japan delayed surrendering because they felt they could get the best deal through Russian mediation, so they focused solely on trying to deal with Russia, who kept stringing them along.

We used the A-bombs because Japan was still refusing to surrender. We thought that perhaps the nukes would shock them into surrendering. If not, the A-bombs would at least pave the way for the invasion.

it was all about the emporer

 

[swing_voter]

it was all about the emporer

Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, it would not only result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization.

Speech by Emperor Hirohito accepting the Terms of Surrender, 14 August 1945




Emperor Hirohito gave the atomic bombs as one of the reasons he surrendered.


Everyone is trying to get into Hirohito's head, but in his surrender speech, he says why he surrendered. Nobody would know better.

 

[TypicalRussian]

Moreover, the enemy has begun to employ a new and most cruel bomb, the power of which to do damage is, indeed, incalculable, taking the toll of many innocent lives. Should we continue to fight, it would not only result in an ultimate collapse and obliteration of the Japanese nation, but also it would lead to the total extinction of human civilization.

Speech by Emperor Hirohito accepting the Terms of Surrender, 14 August 1945




Emperor Hirohito gave the atomic bombs as one of the reasons he surrendered.


Everyone is trying to get into Hirohito's head, but in his surrender speech, he says why he surrendered. Nobody would know better.

he wouldnt of said that if he wasnt allowed to rule after

 

[vegas giants]

Re: Not enough industrial capacity

The USSR refused to declare war until the day AFTER the dropping of the first A-bomb. Thank you for again proving that dropping the A-bomb ended the war with Japan.

Thank you for admitting that Japan needed Russia to enter the war prior to surrender

 

[vegas giants]

It's nice that you are quoting small excepts, but I wish you'd actually read the entire book. He has a lot of good information in it, like the fact that Japan would not have surrendered any earlier if we'd given the Emperor a special guarantee.

Or the fact that, when the Japan asked for special treatment for the Emperor (which they did only after both A-bombs had already been dropped), what they asked for was a guarantee that he retain unlimited dictatorial power.



The four remaining unbombed cities were Kokura, Niigata, Yokosuka, and Kanazawa.

Kokura Arsenal was a high priority on the A-bomb target list, and was Japan's main source of light machine guns, heavy machine guns, and 20mm anti-aircraft machine guns, as well as the ammo for them. This is something that we would have wanted to put out of commission as soon as possible. We would not have wanted to let them keep pumping out more and more machine guns and ammo in the months before the invasion.

Niigata was already on the A-bomb target list.

Yokosuka Arsenal was not on the A-bomb target list, but they made torpedoes, and were thus something that we would have wanted to put out of commission as soon as possible. Every torpedo could mean a sunk troop transport ship on invasion day.



If saving face helped Japan surrender, then it's a good thing we used the A-bombs.



Yes. Japan really feared that we would overrun Honshu just like we overran Iwo Jima and Okinawa.



So far I've not seen you post any evidence that Japan was willing to surrender any earlier than August 10.

So far I've not seen you post any evidence that anyone advised Truman not to use the A-bombs.

Sorry, but I'm not overwhelmed.



It is strange how not one of them told Truman that they opposed using the A-bombs.



Yet they didn't voice a word of opposition to Truman.



And not one of them told Truman they opposed the use of the A-bombs or advised him that Japan was about to surrender.



Wrong. We were actually about to invade Japan if they did not surrender.

That is quite different from a war plan that we have never been about to carry out.



The A-bombs were dropped on military targets.



Godwin's Law! I win the debate!

:2dance:

Thank you for your opinion

 

[vegas giants]

Everyone has an opinion.



So do these guys

The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan.

— Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet,*[89]

The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons*... The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.

— Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman, 1950,*[99]

The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.

— Major General*Curtis LeMay,*XXI Bomber Command, September 1945,*[100]

The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment*... It was a mistake to ever drop it*... [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it.*

— Fleet Admiral*William Halsey Jr., 1946,*[100]

 

[joko104]

Re: Not enough industrial capacity

Thank you for admitting that Japan needed Russia to enter the war prior to surrender

No I didn't, but you do - and it took the A-bomb for the USSR to do so.

 

[joko104]

Everyone has an opinion.



So do these guys

The Japanese had, in fact, already sued for peace. The atomic bomb played no decisive part, from a purely military point of view, in the defeat of Japan.

— Fleet Admiral Chester W. Nimitz, Commander in Chief of the U.S. Pacific Fleet,*[89]

The use of [the atomic bombs] at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons*... The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children.

— Fleet Admiral William D. Leahy, Chief of Staff to President Truman, 1950,*[99]

The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war at all.

— Major General*Curtis LeMay,*XXI Bomber Command, September 1945,*[100]

The first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment*... It was a mistake to ever drop it*... [the scientists] had this toy and they wanted to try it out, so they dropped it.*

— Fleet Admiral*William Halsey Jr., 1946,*[100]

Link to a quote of the message from Japan "suing for peace" - and under what terms - prior to dropping the A-bomb.

 

[vegas giants]

Re: Not enough industrial capacity

No I didn't, but you do - and it took the A-bomb for the USSR to do so.

Well that is not true. Stalin told truman that he would be in by august. So you are just wrong

After his first meeting with Stalin on July 17, 1945 -- three weeks before Hiroshima -- the president noted in his diary:

"He'll be in the Jap war on August 15th. Fini Japs when that comes about."

 

[vegas giants]

Re: Not enough industrial capacity

Discussion of surrender was also underway through a channel in Switzerland. In a recently discovered memo dated May 12, William J. Donovan, director of the Office of Strategic Services, told Truman that an OSS source had "talked with Shunichi Kase, the Japanese minister to Switzerland . . . . Kase expressed a wish to help arrange for a cessation of hostilities . . . ."

Donovan reported the same judgment as that contained in the intercepted cables -- a slight change in the surrender formula seemed the only remaining issue: "One of the few provisions . . . would be the retention of the emperor . . . ."


https://www.washingtonpost.com/arch...-russia/46105dff-8594-4f6c-b6d7-ef1b6cb6530d/

 

[braindrain]

Re: Not enough industrial capacity

Are you in debt?
Can you afford to say no?
Do you elect a cretin ever four years?
Is that cretin, of different colours?
Do not both give tax cuts, to the rich?
To make up the difference do the poor pay more of there income in tax percentage wise than a rich man?
Do special group overturn the party democratic vote to block a candidate, and install another?
Are these officials sponsored by Zionist AIPAC?
Do these official need to go to Israel and stick there heads on a wall, oretending to have sex with this wall?
And idiots never see what's right in front of them!

Aye.... but soon very soon the dollar will collapse, and you lot protecting the Zionist clique, may receive justice at the hands of your own countrymen and women! Justice by the American tax payer for allowing zionists to steal American finances for over a hundred years!

Nonsensical rambling and then screaming about the Jews. How sad that that is all you have.

 

[braindrain]

Goodness me, did god give your your aptly coined nickname. Wasn't it well suited for you!

But really are are taking the proverbial piss, it's a congressional report, a government report you silly silly person!

Did you go to a special school, one where you could sleep or draw whenever you wanted too? Could you play in sand?

And yet another thing this idea zionists are Jews is a fallacy, Judaism is to be trusted and respected as with all religions that teach the commandment or their version of goodness and love and harmony.
Zionism, with its Talmud creed with its racism, of every thing and everyone that is not of there creed is subhuman, an animal according to the Talmud, goyem, or goy, who they are entitled to lie to, have special names for all colours of people all derogatory, rape buggery, pedophilia laws and legislation, animals aren't entitled too redress, as the goy, they are animals!and animals have no rights!

The fact that you can’t understand that your article claims the congressional report says one thing but never backs that up with any facts just proves how out of touch with reality you are.

And of course to top it off you finish with screaming about the Jews.

No surprise there.

 

[Fledermaus]

Re: Not enough industrial capacity

Are you in debt?
Can you afford to say no?
Do you elect a cretin ever four years?
Is that cretin, of different colours?
Do not both give tax cuts, to the rich?
To make up the difference do the poor pay more of there income in tax percentage wise than a rich man?
Do special group overturn the party democratic vote to block a candidate, and install another?
Are these officials sponsored by Zionist AIPAC?
Do these official need to go to Israel and stick there heads on a wall, oretending to have sex with this wall?
And idiots never see what's right in front of them!

Aye.... but soon very soon the dollar will collapse, and you lot protecting the Zionist clique, may receive justice at the hands of your own countrymen and women! Justice by the American tax payer for allowing zionists to steal American finances for over a hundred years!

Another post without substance invoking the "Greedy Jew" stereotype Antisemites know and love.

 

[Fledermaus]

Goodness me, did god give your your aptly coined nickname. Wasn't it well suited for you!

But really are are taking the proverbial piss, it's a congressional report, a government report you silly silly person!

Did you go to a special school, one where you could sleep or draw whenever you wanted too? Could you play in sand?

And yet another thing this idea zionists are Jews is a fallacy, Judaism is to be trusted and respected as with all religions that teach the commandment or their version of goodness and love and harmony.
Zionism, with its Talmud creed with its racism, of every thing and everyone that is not of there creed is subhuman, an animal according to the Talmud, goyem, or goy, who they are entitled to lie to, have special names for all colours of people all derogatory, rape buggery, pedophilia laws and legislation, animals aren't entitled too redress, as the goy, they are animals!and animals have no rights!

"This idea zionists are Jews is a fallacy,"

Now Zionists aren't Jews?

Can you makeup your mind?

Define ZIONIST in your words.

Because you were calling the JEWS expelled from European nations in the 1300s "Zionists".

 

[Highlanders]

"This idea zionists are Jews is a fallacy,"

Now Zionists aren't Jews?

Can you makeup your mind?

Define ZIONIST in your words.

Because you were calling the JEWS expelled from European nations in the 1300s "Zionists".

Thank you for at last accepting Zionist are a cult! Who originated in Khazar, and thrown back from whence they came! To that you obviously agree! You being German and all!
For the same disgusting and vile reasons previously elaborated upon, you accept these facts as you don't dispel them! Thank you.

 

[Highlanders]

Re: Not enough industrial capacity

Another post without substance invoking the "Greedy Jew" stereotype Antisemites know and love.

Counter the facts, not ridicule the factual account of the practices of your vile friends.

And for all to see..... out come the Zionist red card..... I'm called anti Semitic a phrase stolen to restrict discussion about these vermin, that today, are collapsing the dollar as a world currency. Let's see how this bastion of Zion sells out his adopted nation still further in his reply!

One question, do your Zionist buddies not have there thieving fingers firmly entrenched into the pockets of the American tax payer? A simple Yes or no reply will be sufficient.

 

[Highlanders]

The fact that you can’t understand that your article claims the congressional report says one thing but never backs that up with any facts just proves how out of touch with reality you are.

And of course to top it off you finish with screaming about the Jews.

No surprise there.

It's a congressional report..... and as I'm never going to get access to closed information what can you believe you silly man!

Your like a child having a tantrum in a shop, no your not getting a sweetie! End of conversation.

 

[Fledermaus]

Thank you for at last accepting Zionist are a cult! Who originated in Khazar, and thrown back from whence they came! To that you obviously agree! You being German and all!
For the same disgusting and vile reasons previously elaborated upon, you accept these facts as you don't dispel them! Thank you.

Where did I state Zionists are a "cult"?

Why lie about what I write?

You keep babbling, but you refuse to answer...

Define ZIONIST in your words.

 

[Fledermaus]

Re: Not enough industrial capacity

Counter the facts, not ridicule the factual account of the practices of your vile friends.

And for all to see..... out come the Zionist red card..... I'm called anti Semitic a phrase stolen to restrict discussion about these vermin, that today, are collapsing the dollar as a world currency. Let's see how this bastion of Zion sells out his adopted nation still further in his reply!

One question, do your Zionist buddies not have there thieving fingers firmly entrenched into the pockets of the American tax payer? A simple Yes or no reply will be sufficient.

Stop repeating anti-Semitic slurs and I will stop pointing out anti-Semitic slurs that you make.

Deal?

Now, have you the courage to to define Zionists?

 

[Fledermaus]

It's a congressional report..... and as I'm never going to get access to closed information what can you believe you silly man!

Your like a child having a tantrum in a shop, no your not getting a sweetie! End of conversation.

Good. Cite the entry that supports you claim.

 

[Highlanders]

Re: Not enough industrial capacity

No to all the above

Fact is, your either wrong or lying!

And let me see, a conservative trump supporter..... it says it all, voting for an imbecile, a man unable to string a sentence together, a cretin who is trying to start WW3 to hide from the collapsing dollar, fiasco, that both Zionist republican and democratic parties caused as both are sponsored by them, one party far more extreme than the other I'll grant you, as I firmly believe if yon other vile creature, Hillary otherwise known as cruella de vil, had been elected, we would already be at war! But they have Kamala, as as extreme as they come, and as vile! And this is the best American nation can attain, freedom of choice, and this is the best America can offer? Even to the village idiot, one can see how corrupt the election process has become in Zionist owned America, Zionist owned Fed, Zionist owned politics, Zionist owned justice system, Zionist owned military, Zionist owned media, Zionist owned Hollywood, Zionist owner of serfs, hellooooo serf!