Why True Conservatives Should Oppose the War

This is a great debate on the subject, and well worth the watch. Note: You will need Windows Media Player to watch this.

Is our invasion of Iraq legal, and is it truly a Conservative position to take, or is our administration actually a collection of Liberals on steroids, who feel they can break the law with impunity and lie about what they are doing? Remember the words of Karl Marx, who said that the ends justify the means, as you watch the video.

You watch and judge for yourself.

Video is here.

The war against Iraq is illegal. That should be uncontroversial and it's not difficult to find out why.
The incumbent US administration is pretty much a reuse of the Reagan administration, where 'the war on terror' was being waged then.
The irony is, that the US, during that Reagan era, was found guilty by the UN World Court for international terrorism.

So, whatever the Reagan bunch were on at that time, they're all pretty much still on the same stuff, today.
As far as breaking the law...Sure, but who's gonna make them stop breaking it?

It is a good video, by the way.

Brigand said:

The war against Iraq is illegal. That should be uncontroversial and it's not difficult to find out why.
The incumbent US administration is pretty much a reuse of the Reagan administration, where 'the war on terror' was being waged then.
The irony is, that the US, during that Reagan era, was found guilty by the UN World Court for international terrorism.

So, whatever the Reagan bunch were on at that time, they're all pretty much still on the same stuff, today.
As far as breaking the law...Sure, but who's gonna make them stop breaking it?

It is a good video, by the way.

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Actually, there was a split in the Republican Party during the Reagan presidency, and Reagan never allowed the Neocons to get within arms length of him most of the time, although the Neocons did put themselves in position to do the Iran-Contra lawbreaknig. Reagan, like a man, took responsibility for their actions, and told us all that it was his own fault. The buck truly stopped with Reagain, and is one reason I respected him. Bush is no Reagan.

Bush's father, as VP under Reagan, referred to the Neocons as "crazies in the basement". There is no doubt that they are.

Well, you know, the contention between my sentiments, regarding Reagan, and yours, isn't really the point. But, we could essentially agree that Reagan was 'fall guy' of some sorts, for what the 'other guys' in his administration were doing.

The point really is, that some of those same 'crazies' populate todays US administration and the war against Iraq is illegal.

danarhea said:

Remember the words of Karl Marx, who said that the ends justify the means...

Click to expand...

Actually, Niccolo Machiavelli said that.

vergiss said:

Actually, Niccolo Machiavelli said that.

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Actually, it was Marx who put it in the context of Communism, which is what I was referring to, and therefore, the appropriate reference. The other only serves the purpose of clouding the issue.

danarhea said:

Actually, it was Marx who put it in the context of Communism, which is what I was referring to, and therefore, the appropriate reference. The other only serves the purpose of clouding the issue.

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Sheesh, remind me never to prove you wrong in future. :roll:

vergiss said:

Sheesh, remind me never to prove you wrong in future. :roll:

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Again, the quote was made by Marx within the context of Communism. Or are you attempting to suggest that Machiavelli made the comment with Communism, an ideology that did not exist at the time, in mind? As I already stated, any other use of the phrase is not relevant to the discussion, but only serves to cloud the issue. The ends justifying the means is very important to Communist ideology.

danarhea said:

Again, the quote was made by Marx within the context of Communism. Or are you attempting to suggest that Machiavelli made the comment with Communism, an ideology that did not exist at the time, in mind?

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Yes. Of course I am. :lol:

Hint: just be grateful next time.

karl marx himself got the ends justify the means idea from Machievelli. Machievelli's texts were a staple in political philosophy, and still are.

danarhea,

I can make a computer generated transcrip of the speeches if you'd like to edit them.

Let me know via pm or email.

Simon

This is a great debate on the subject, and well worth the watch. Note: You will need Windows Media Player to watch this.

Is our invasion of Iraq legal, and is it truly a Conservative position to take, or is our administration actually a collection of Liberals on steroids, who feel they can break the law with impunity and lie about what they are doing? Remember the words of Karl Marx, who said that the ends justify the means, as you watch the video.

You watch and judge for yourself.

Click to expand...

Alot of people think the ends justify the means.If our forefathers did not think that way we would still be a british colony.Hitler would have tooken over europe and much of the world if we did not think the end justify the means.To me the long term result is much better than the now.It is what motivates many people to go to school for many years to get that career that they want.If nobody thought the end justified the means where would we as a society be right now?Would we even have a society?

nkgupta80 said:

karl marx himself got the ends justify the means idea from Machievelli. Machievelli's texts were a staple in political philosophy, and still are.

Click to expand...

I am not trying to say that Machiavelli didnt write it originally, but that Marx was the one who made it part of the Communist Manifesto. A lot of things which were done by the Communists were done according to the Communist Manifesto. That is why I maintain that bringing up Machiavelli only serves to cloud the issue. The idea of communism did not exist at the time of Machiavelli. Therefore, when I ask people to think of the ends justifying the means as they watch the video, I am, of course, using the phrase as it applies to Communist ideology.

Why would I bring that phrase up in the first place? Because the Bushneviks follow the teachings of Irving Kristol who WAS a devout member of the Communist party, and while Kristol later denounced the economics of Communism, the father of the Neocons, as well as his followers, employ the same strategy for power and structure as the Soviet Empire once did. This was not by accident.