Why There Will Be No Negotiating with Putin

[eman623]

Ethnic Russian minorities in Donbass, Crimea want to be part of Ukraine; you still hold to that principle? I will be highly surprised if you say yes.

Surprise!

 

[eman623]

Well there was never a free and fair election for them to decide to be part of the Ukraine in 1991, and the Ukrainian regime explicitly holds the position that not one acre of what it considers its territory can EVER leave under any circumstances.

Most countries don't want to see their minorities split off and form their own countries. But it still happens. See Moldova, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, South Sudan and East Timor.

It is definitely the case, even Ukros don’t argue that the majority of Crimeans wanted to be in Russia and not Ukraine, they just claim they recognize no legitimate mechanism for secession

Well, Invasion and annexation by a hostile neighbor is not a legitimate method, even when backed up with an obviously rigged referendum.

Well it’s clear to me the Ukranians don’t believe in self determination except by their own supreme Soviet on behalf of everyone living in their self purported borders

This is why borders, language and culture matter and it's a bad idea to let millions of people stream across the border and squat in your country.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Most countries don't want to see their minorities split off and form their own countries. But it still happens. See Moldova, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, South Sudan and East Timor.

Not really relevant here though

Well, Invasion and annexation by a hostile neighbor is not a legitimate method, even when backed up with an obviously rigged referendum.

But the Ukranians make no effort to even argue that a referendum would favor them if carried out impartially.

This is why borders, language and culture matter and it's a bad idea to let millions of people stream across the border and squat in your country.

That’s not what happened in Ukraine, in fact Ukraines population is almost 20 million fewer then the Ukrainian SSR at the end of the Soviet Union. Russians living in the territory claimed by Ukraine are not squatters, for the most part they’ve been there forever. Odessa was literally created as a city by order of Catherine the Great.

The modern Ukraine is not a borders/language/culture society. It was a geographical region within the Soviet Union and before that the Russian Empire, parts of what is now Ukraine were part of Poland, Austria Hungary, Romania etc. the people calling themselves Ukrainians were two separate groups, the ruthenians and the little Russians, who spoke a language referred to as “khohol” which is now called “Ukrainian” the far western part of Ukraine was taken from Poland by the Soviets in 1939 and when Germany invaded in 1941 the Ruthenian/Little Russians engaged in a little genocide against poles and ethnically cleansed them while pledging allegiance to Hitler and the SS. Then when the Soviets took back the area and advanced west Germanys allies in Romania and hungary were forced to give land to the Soviet Union which was administered by the Ukrainian Soviet. Crimea was part of Russia proper from 1783 to 1954 when Nikita Kruschev reassigned it from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR for reasons unknown although the majority of the population was fully Russian.

There was no immigration waves that caused this problem

 

[Rogue Valley]

But the Ukranians make no effort to even argue that a referendum would favor them if carried out impartially.

It is impossible to hold free and fair referendums in Crimea/Donbas when they are occupied by Russian soldiers and administered by Moscow satraps.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

It is impossible to hold free and fair referendums in Crimea/Donbas when they are occupied by Russian soldiers and administered by Moscow satraps.

It’s also irrelevant since the Ukrainian position is that secession from the banderite regime is always illegal to them.

So their whining about the circumstances of the election is in bad faith.

It’s impossible to have a free and fair election period since the Banderites have stated the position that to vote in any referendum of the type is treason against Führer Bandera