Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.***[W:1682]****

[RAMOSS]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

Apes, not monkeys. Different primates.

Monkeys got a piece of tail. Apes don't.

 

[soylentgreen]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

Look, man, I'm not calling your difference of opinion dishonest. Stop right there with the personal stuff.

That is because i need not rely on a dishonestly hidden premise as theists do. Nor am i calling you someone who is being deliberately dishonest. I am saying that the stance theists take is inherently a dishonest one. There is a distinction between someone behaving dishonestly and an arguement based on a dishonest premise. I do apologise if you take offence that is not the intention behind making the point that a dishonest claim is being made.

The so-called "harm" and "nonsense" has absolutely nothing to do with the question of God's existence.

In one sense i can agree with this. But it is dependent upon what the theist claims because of a gods existence. The reason many atheists have for arguing against a god is that there is some harm in the belief system of a theist. That is not always the case however. There are many theists who do no harm in their beliefs.

I'm accepting this "lack of belief" line of argument. I'm just asking, based on what, if not belief that God does not exist?

That i hold a lack of any beliefs about a god is because not one theist can give a good reason as to why i should hold a god to be anything more than a fiction. Fiction does not require belief either in the negative or positive. When you read a story about hobbits your pleasure from such a fiction is not enhanced by either believing or disbelieving in hobbits. In fact the best way to enjoy a fiction is to suspend belief altogether, it s not required.

The question you ask of " if not belief that God does not exist?" is a false one. I do not need to engage not belief at all.

This is what i mean by the dishonesty of the theist. To ask that question at all you must first start from a hidden premise that it might be possible for a god to exist. As an atheist i have no reason to accept that hidden pemise so i have no need to have an attitude that god does not exist.

 

[Angel]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

...
That i hold a lack of any beliefs about a god is because not one theist can give a good reason as to why i should hold a god to be anything more than a fiction. Fiction does not require belief either in the negative or positive. When you read a story about hobbits your pleasure from such a fiction is not enhanced by either believing or disbelieving in hobbits. In fact the best way to enjoy a fiction is to suspend belief altogether, it s not required.

The question you ask of " if not belief that God does not exist?" is a false one. I do not need to engage not belief at all.

This is what i mean by the dishonesty of the theist. To ask that question at all you must first start from a hidden premise that it might be possible for a god to exist. As an atheist i have no reason to accept that hidden pemise so i have no need to have an attitude that god does not exist.

Coleridge's phrase, describing the dynamic in attending to literary fictions (if not all of Art), is: "the willing suspension of disbelief."
The willing suspension of disbelief -- not the suspension of belief.
The suspension of disbelief.
Your analogy is adrift.

Your argument, or rather the atheist argument as represented in your post, is an odd sort of DEFAULT POSITION: I don't disbelieve (the atheist says, according to you) because no one has given me reason to believe. Strange mind-set. It's like saying: I don't eat meat because you're not a vegetarian.

Screwy.

 

[William Rea]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

Coleridge's phrase, describing the dynamic in attending to literary fictions (if not all of Art), is: "the willing suspension of disbelief."
The willing suspension of disbelief -- not the suspension of belief.
The suspension of disbelief.
Your analogy is adrift.

Your argument, or rather the atheist argument as represented in your post, is an odd sort of DEFAULT POSITION: I don't disbelieve (the atheist says, according to you) because no one has given me reason to believe. Strange mind-set. It's like saying: I don't eat meat because you're not a vegetarian.

Screwy.

After numerous attempts to explain it, we already figured out that it is too difficult for you to understand the position but, that does not make it incorrect. To continue attacking a position you clearly cannot comprehend is not constructive so, what next? Perhaps you could produce evidence for your immaterial?

 

[Angel]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

There is not a single, discrete Force that is necessary for physical reality. There are necessary conditions, perhaps, but not a single condition. It also does not mean that the conditions were not physical conditions.

How do you know any of this?

 

[devildavid]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

How do you know any of this?

I don't claim to know it, but I present it as a viable possibility. Do you agree that there is more than one possible explanation of how we came to be, and that one possibility is that it was from a physical cause? And that it does not have to be from one, single cause?

 

[MrWonka]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

Is a lack of a belief a belief ??

Yes. It's a belief in the negative. Lacking belief in God is equal to believing that no god exists or at the very least believing there isn't enough evidence to determine if god exists. Both are beliefs.

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

Yes. It's a belief in the negative. Lacking belief in God is equal to believing that no god exists or at the very least believing there isn't enough evidence to determine if god exists. Both are beliefs.

I would say knowing that there is no evidence. You call it what you like.

 

[devildavid]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

Yes. It's a belief in the negative. Lacking belief in God is equal to believing that no god exists or at the very least believing there isn't enough evidence to determine if god exists. Both are beliefs.

You don't seem to comprehend the meaning of the words "lack of".

 

[MrWonka]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

And since the dictionary says "disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods

A disbelief or lack of belief is itself a belief in the negative. At the minimum, it's a belief that you don't know, but that would be agnosticism. Given that we're specifically talking about Atheism then there's no question it's a belief in the negative.

A belief can be factual. It can be true. It can be proven empirically or logically. We don't typically use the word in this fashion, but it does fit the definition whether you can admit that to yourself or not.

be·lief
bəˈlēf/Submit
noun
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.

If you accept the statement "a god does not exist" as the truth then you by definition believe it.

You seem to want to cling to the second part of that definition after the or. The "something exists" part. But that comes after an "or" which means the first part of the definition applies even if the second does not.

 

[MrWonka]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

You don't seem to comprehend the meaning of the words "lack of".

I firmly understand it. You don't seem to understand how beliefs work. All that is necessary to consider something a belief is that you accept it as true. No matter how you choose to write it you're definately accepting something as true. You accept the statement "gods do not exist" as the truth. If you don't, then you're not an Atheist at all.

 

[MrWonka]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

I would say knowing that there is no evidence.

Knowing something to be true is accepting it as true.

be·lief
bəˈlēf/Submit
noun
1.
an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists

You call it what you like.

I will call it what I like, but what I like is how the dictionary defines it.

 

[devildavid]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

I firmly understand it. You don't seem to understand how beliefs work. All that is necessary to consider something a belief is that you accept it as true. No matter how you choose to write it you're definately accepting something as true. You accept the statement "gods do not exist" as the truth. If you don't, then you're not an Atheist at all.

Look up the definition of lack. It applies to whatever it describes, including beliefs. If I have no apples I lack apples and if I have no belief I lack belief. It's very simple. What complicates it for you is your hangup on the word belief.

 

[William Rea]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

I firmly understand it. You don't seem to understand how beliefs work. All that is necessary to consider something a belief is that you accept it as true. No matter how you choose to write it you're definately accepting something as true. You accept the statement "gods do not exist" as the truth. If you don't, then you're not an Atheist at all.

Thank you for trying to tell me what I believe. You are welcome to guess any way you choose, I on the other hand know that I'm an atheist and that I lack belief in gods.

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

Yes. It's a belief in the negative. Lacking belief in God is equal to believing that no god exists or at the very least believing there isn't enough evidence to determine if god exists. Both are beliefs.

That is the point that is debated. Some people say yes, others say no. I am not sure it matters, one way or another.

 

[MrWonka]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

Thank you for trying to tell me what I believe.

You're telling me what you believe. I'm telling you what the definition of belief is.

I, on the other hand, know that I'm an atheist

Which tells us you believe God does not exist since that's the definition of the word.

and that I lack belief in gods.

Which can only mean one of two things?

1.) you believe God does not exist.

2.) You believe you don't have enough information to decide if God exists or not.

In both situations, you believe something. Since you told us you're an Atheist already we can only assume #1 applies to you.

You are free to believe whatever you want, but you don't get to equivocate.

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

You don't seem to comprehend the meaning of the words "lack of".

That has already been noted.

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

You're telling me what you believe. I'm telling you what the definition of belief is.

And that definition is the opposite of unbelief.

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

You're telling me what you believe. I'm telling you what the definition of belief is.


Which tells us you believe God does not exist since that's the definition of the word.



Which can only mean one of two things?

1.) you believe God does not exist.

2.) You believe you don't have enough information to decide if God exists or not.

In both situations, you believe something. Since you told us you're an Atheist already we can only assume #1 applies to you.

You are free to believe whatever you want, but you don't get to equivocate.

You keep confusing belief with knowledge.

 

[MrWonka]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

That is the point that is debated. Some people say yes, others say no. I am not sure it matters, one way or another.

If it's perfectly acceptable to use the word either way, then there's no point in arguing about it, and this thread shouldn't exist in the first place. A theist is perfectly correct in saying that Atheism is a Belief, so as an Atheist you're not allowed to tell them they are wrong, and arguing with them about it serves no purpose. But that is really my whole point. The definition of belief is a very broad definition that can cover anything a person accepts as true. So there's no realy point in arguing it. It doesn't really tell us anything about you.

That brings us to the REAL argument that this thread should actually have been about in the first place. Is Atheism a Faith. The answer to that question is most definitely No.

 

[MrWonka]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

You keep confusing belief with knowledge.

No, I am not confusing anything. You all knowledge is something you accept as true. That by definition makes it something you believe. Stating that you believe a fact is redundant, not contradictory. It's unnecessary to state you believe in facts, because it's obvious and implied, but that doesn't mean they are not things you believe in.

Again, until you're willing to accept the dictionary definition of the word belief we have nothing more to discuss. Quit wasting my time with your equivocation.

 

[MrWonka]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

And that definition is the opposite of unbelief.

Which itself is a belief. You see how your refusal to believe what I'm telling you is itself a belief in something else?

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

No, I am not confusing anything. You all knowledge is something you accept as true. That by definition makes it something you believe. Stating that you believe a fact is redundant, not contradictory. It's unnecessary to state you believe in facts, because it's obvious and implied, but that doesn't mean they are not things you believe in.

Again, until you're willing to accept the dictionary definition of the word belief we have nothing more to discuss. Quit wasting my time with your equivocation.

belief

noun
1.
an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.
"his belief in extraterrestrial life"
2.
trust, faith, or confidence in (someone or something).

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

Which itself is a belief. You see how your refusal to believe what I'm telling you is itself a belief in something else?

unbelief

noun
lack of religious belief; an absence of faith.

 

[zyzygy]

Re: Why theists are so desperate to call atheism a belief.

Which itself is a belief. You see how your refusal to believe what I'm telling you is itself a belief in something else?

I'd believe it if you could provide some proof that would add to my knowledge.