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Why the Supreme Court should find for the Judges power, and Birthright Citizenship.

SavannahMann

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We’ll begin with the easy one. Birthright Citizenship. That’s what the Amendment says. What part of Any Person is hard to understand?

The harder one. Judges ability to issue an Order that has effect Nationally. Or everywhere if you prefer. That is actually the smarter rule. The idea that Every District should be judged within that district, and only for that district is the recipe for Chaos. Let’s say that the Next President is a Democrat. This Democrat orders all weapons to be turned in. The NRA and other Gun Rights groups would have to file a motion in literally every single district across the nation to put a stop to the obviously unconstitutional order. Then it would be up to that Judge to overturn the orders of the President, or not. So a Judge in Georgia says no, the order is Valid. Now, they have to run to every single Appeals court and get a dozen different rulings. In the meantime, people are going to jail because the Judge had said that it was legal. Weapons are being melted down because the Judge said it was Legal.

The idea that one Judge can issue a proper order that affects everyone when there is a rule or law that is obviously unconstitutional is a good one. This allows one Judge to hear the arguments and make a decision. That decision can be appealed, and one Appeals Court is going to hear it. If you still don’t like the answer you can still send it to the Supremes.

Chief Justice Robert’s seemed to suggest that it could be handled better as a Class Action Lawsuit. Those are the worst ways to deal with an issue. First, you have to identify multiple victims. It should not require that. You should be able to stop an unconstitutional action with not even one victim. If the notional Democrat above issued the order to collect all weapons right away, we shouldn’t need to identify fifty or more people who lost their Second Amendment Rights before we get a Judge to say no. We shouldn’t need affidavits from fifty people about their Rights being violated. We should be able to say hey, this is illegal. Stop it.

One Judge issuing an order is the best way. That Judge seeing the arguments can issue an order telling the Government that they can’t collect those weapons and they can’t prosecute anyone for it. That is what is supposed to happen. When the Government tries to do something Unconstitutional, the Courts are supposed to say No!

Those who say that this makes Judges unelected Kings are full of manure. Something obviously unconstitutional should be stopped immediately and not just in this district or that one. Everywhere. Do you really want to leave your rights up to the whim of some Judge who happens to be local? A Republican in New York might say no, and a Democrat in Texas might say yes. Think about that. One Judge, One Order, and One path of appeals. That makes a hell of a lot more sense than demanding a hundred motions before a hundred judges to affect all the districts doesn’t it?
 
We’ll begin with the easy one. Birthright Citizenship. That’s what the Amendment says. What part of Any Person is hard to understand?

The harder one. Judges ability to issue an Order that has effect Nationally. Or everywhere if you prefer. That is actually the smarter rule. The idea that Every District should be judged within that district, and only for that district is the recipe for Chaos. Let’s say that the Next President is a Democrat. This Democrat orders all weapons to be turned in. The NRA and other Gun Rights groups would have to file a motion in literally every single district across the nation to put a stop to the obviously unconstitutional order. Then it would be up to that Judge to overturn the orders of the President, or not. So a Judge in Georgia says no, the order is Valid. Now, they have to run to every single Appeals court and get a dozen different rulings. In the meantime, people are going to jail because the Judge had said that it was legal. Weapons are being melted down because the Judge said it was Legal.

The idea that one Judge can issue a proper order that affects everyone when there is a rule or law that is obviously unconstitutional is a good one. This allows one Judge to hear the arguments and make a decision. That decision can be appealed, and one Appeals Court is going to hear it. If you still don’t like the answer you can still send it to the Supremes.

Chief Justice Robert’s seemed to suggest that it could be handled better as a Class Action Lawsuit. Those are the worst ways to deal with an issue. First, you have to identify multiple victims. It should not require that. You should be able to stop an unconstitutional action with not even one victim. If the notional Democrat above issued the order to collect all weapons right away, we shouldn’t need to identify fifty or more people who lost their Second Amendment Rights before we get a Judge to say no. We shouldn’t need affidavits from fifty people about their Rights being violated. We should be able to say hey, this is illegal. Stop it.

One Judge issuing an order is the best way. That Judge seeing the arguments can issue an order telling the Government that they can’t collect those weapons and they can’t prosecute anyone for it. That is what is supposed to happen. When the Government tries to do something Unconstitutional, the Courts are supposed to say No!

Those who say that this makes Judges unelected Kings are full of manure. Something obviously unconstitutional should be stopped immediately and not just in this district or that one. Everywhere. Do you really want to leave your rights up to the whim of some Judge who happens to be local? A Republican in New York might say no, and a Democrat in Texas might say yes. Think about that. One Judge, One Order, and One path of appeals. That makes a hell of a lot more sense than demanding a hundred motions before a hundred judges to affect all the districts doesn’t it?

The problem, as I see it, is that the right interprets "natural born citizen" as meaning born in the USA. And, IMO, it does not mean that.
 
The problem, as I see it, is that the right interprets "natural born citizen" as meaning born in the USA. And, IMO, it does not mean that.

So the Constitution doesn’t mean what it says in plain English?
 
The problem, as I see it, is that the right interprets "natural born citizen" as meaning born in the USA. And, IMO, it does not mean that.
Nowhere in the 14th amendment is the phrase "natural born citizen" found.
 
We’ll begin with the easy one. Birthright Citizenship. That’s what the Amendment says. What part of Any Person is hard to understand?
No part of "any person" is hard to understand. The phrase at issue actually says "all persons," but that's not the issue anyway. The issue is "subject to the jurisdiction thereof."

Either you know this and are strawmanning a fake argument (in which case no one should take you seriously), or you don't and have no idea what you're actually arguing against (in which case no one should take you seriously).
 
No part of "any person" is hard to understand. The phrase at issue actually says "all persons," but that's not the issue anyway. The issue is "subject to the jurisdiction thereof."

Either you know this and are strawmanning a fake argument (in which case no one should take you seriously), or you don't and have no idea what you're actually arguing against (in which case no one should take you seriously).

Subject to the Jurisdiction means what it says too. Unless you have diplomatic immunity you are subject to the jurisdiction.
 
The idea that one Judge can issue a proper order that affects everyone when there is a rule or law that is obviously unconstitutional is a good one.
I am sympathetic to this argument. Something that is facially unconstitutional is so regardless of whether someone resides in a particular judicial district. However, the problem with this approach becomes clear when one realizes that all it takes is one judge to agree with the filing party. Those who oppose an action can file suit in as many districts as they want. The government has to win every one of them to continue its practice. Its opponents only need to win once. I don't like that tilted table.

But what is the solution? First-to-the-post? Can a judge who upholds a government action issue a universal anti-injunction, preventing anyone else from attempting to enjoin the government's action on an issue? I've seen it suggested that all applications for universal injunctions should go to the DC Circuit, but I think that's guaranteed to make the DC Circuit only slightly less contentious than the Supreme Court in nomination fights. Same for creating a Universal Injunction Circuit all by itself. Perhaps the most reasonable option is to give plaintiffs an option: a single judge to rule on your case, or a panel to rule on it in the context of a universal injunction. This would not solve any forum-shopping issues, but it would probably pump the brakes at least a little.
 
I am sympathetic to this argument. Something that is facially unconstitutional is so regardless of whether someone resides in a particular judicial district. However, the problem with this approach becomes clear when one realizes that all it takes is one judge to agree with the filing party. Those who oppose an action can file suit in as many districts as they want. The government has to win every one of them to continue its practice. Its opponents only need to win once. I don't like that tilted table.

But what is the solution? First-to-the-post? Can a judge who upholds a government action issue a universal anti-injunction, preventing anyone else from attempting to enjoin the government's action on an issue? I've seen it suggested that all applications for universal injunctions should go to the DC Circuit, but I think that's guaranteed to make the DC Circuit only slightly less contentious than the Supreme Court in nomination fights. Same for creating a Universal Injunction Circuit all by itself. Perhaps the most reasonable option is to give plaintiffs an option: a single judge to rule on your case, or a panel to rule on it in the context of a universal injunction. This would not solve any forum-shopping issues, but it would probably pump the brakes at least a little.

They don’t win once and done. The process is followed.

Okay. They find “one” judge who agrees with the motion. The Judge issues an order. The issue isn’t settled. The Appeals process begins. The Government goes to the Appeals Court and asks that court to overturn the lower court ruling. If someone doesn’t like the Appeals Court ruling it is headed to the Supremes.

A decision by the Supremes would be the end of the matter. That has always been the case.

The every district approach means that a Judge overseeing the District you live in may find one way and another Judge in a neighboring district finds another. All the cases are headed to every one of the appeals courts. Instead of one you have a hundred.
 
The right-wing argues that undocumented immigrants are subject to the jurisdiction of the US government as the US government deports them.

Both statements can't be true.
 
Except there is wide disagreement about what it says. Aren't you aware of this? This is the crux of the whole matter.


What kind of immunity counts?

Diplomatic Immunity. If you can’t be charged with a crime because you have diplomatic immunity you are not subject to the Jurisdiction.

To put it in Hollywood terms. The Second Lethal Weapon movie. The bad guy was an Ambassador from South Africa. He had Diplomatic Immunity. The cops couldn’t arrest him or get search warrants for any property owned by the South African Government. They couldn’t do anything but ask the State Department to Persona Non Grata the guy. In other words tell South Africa that we didn’t like him and send him home.
 
I am sympathetic to this argument. Something that is facially unconstitutional is so regardless of whether someone resides in a particular judicial district. However, the problem with this approach becomes clear when one realizes that all it takes is one judge to agree with the filing party. Those who oppose an action can file suit in as many districts as they want. The government has to win every one of them to continue its practice. Its opponents only need to win once. I don't like that tilted table.

But what is the solution? First-to-the-post? Can a judge who upholds a government action issue a universal anti-injunction, preventing anyone else from attempting to enjoin the government's action on an issue? I've seen it suggested that all applications for universal injunctions should go to the DC Circuit, but I think that's guaranteed to make the DC Circuit only slightly less contentious than the Supreme Court in nomination fights. Same for creating a Universal Injunction Circuit all by itself. Perhaps the most reasonable option is to give plaintiffs an option: a single judge to rule on your case, or a panel to rule on it in the context of a universal injunction. This would not solve any forum-shopping issues, but it would probably pump the brakes at least a little.

I bet you don't mind the "titled table" when the one judge sides with you all.
 
Diplomatic Immunity. If you can’t be charged with a crime because you have diplomatic immunity you are not subject to the Jurisdiction.

To put it in Hollywood terms. The Second Lethal Weapon movie. The bad guy was an Ambassador from South Africa. He had Diplomatic Immunity. The cops couldn’t arrest him or get search warrants for any property owned by the South African Government. They couldn’t do anything but ask the State Department to Persona Non Grata the guy. In other words tell South Africa that we didn’t like him and send him home.
Real life isn't the movies. There are different kinds of immunity. Which ones make a person "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States?
 
Real life isn't the movies. There are different kinds of immunity. Which ones make a person "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States?
"Subject to the jurisdiction" has traditionally meant on U.S. soil, because that is where you are subject to the jurisdiction of U.S. laws. For example, I enjoy constitutionally protected freedom of expression. However, when I have traveled to China, I only enjoyed the protections under Chinese law for freedom of expression (much more limited) because I was no longer under the jurisdiction of the United States.
 
We’ll begin with the easy one. Birthright Citizenship. That’s what the Amendment says. What part of Any Person is hard to understand?

The harder one. Judges ability to issue an Order that has effect Nationally. Or everywhere if you prefer. That is actually the smarter rule. The idea that Every District should be judged within that district, and only for that district is the recipe for Chaos. Let’s say that the Next President is a Democrat. This Democrat orders all weapons to be turned in. The NRA and other Gun Rights groups would have to file a motion in literally every single district across the nation to put a stop to the obviously unconstitutional order. Then it would be up to that Judge to overturn the orders of the President, or not. So a Judge in Georgia says no, the order is Valid. Now, they have to run to every single Appeals court and get a dozen different rulings. In the meantime, people are going to jail because the Judge had said that it was legal. Weapons are being melted down because the Judge said it was Legal.

The idea that one Judge can issue a proper order that affects everyone when there is a rule or law that is obviously unconstitutional is a good one. This allows one Judge to hear the arguments and make a decision. That decision can be appealed, and one Appeals Court is going to hear it. If you still don’t like the answer you can still send it to the Supremes.

Chief Justice Robert’s seemed to suggest that it could be handled better as a Class Action Lawsuit. Those are the worst ways to deal with an issue. First, you have to identify multiple victims. It should not require that. You should be able to stop an unconstitutional action with not even one victim. If the notional Democrat above issued the order to collect all weapons right away, we shouldn’t need to identify fifty or more people who lost their Second Amendment Rights before we get a Judge to say no. We shouldn’t need affidavits from fifty people about their Rights being violated. We should be able to say hey, this is illegal. Stop it.

One Judge issuing an order is the best way. That Judge seeing the arguments can issue an order telling the Government that they can’t collect those weapons and they can’t prosecute anyone for it. That is what is supposed to happen. When the Government tries to do something Unconstitutional, the Courts are supposed to say No!

Those who say that this makes Judges unelected Kings are full of manure. Something obviously unconstitutional should be stopped immediately and not just in this district or that one. Everywhere. Do you really want to leave your rights up to the whim of some Judge who happens to be local? A Republican in New York might say no, and a Democrat in Texas might say yes. Think about that. One Judge, One Order, and One path of appeals. That makes a hell of a lot more sense than demanding a hundred motions before a hundred judges to affect all the districts doesn’t it?
If district court judges are allowed to impose national injunctions we will see hundreds, if not thousands, of cases shopped to these courts and the effect will be nullification of Executive power. Liberals will shop cases in liberal districts when a Republican is in office and Republicans will shop cases in conservative districts when liberals are in power. It will completely end Constitutional separation and hand ALL power to the judicial branch.
 
Subject to the Jurisdiction means what it says too. Unless you have diplomatic immunity you are subject to the jurisdiction.
Only in a very limited sense. We have plenty of laws, especially when it comes to immigration, that substantively limit the rights of non-citizens. We have other laws that actually define "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" and in those cases the matter is clearly separated between those here lawfully and those here in contravention of the law.
 
If district court judges are allowed to impose national injunctions we will see hundreds, if not thousands, of cases shopped to these courts and the effect will be nullification of Executive power. Liberals will shop cases in liberal districts when a Republican is in office and Republicans will shop cases in conservative districts when liberals are in power. It will completely end Constitutional separation and hand ALL power to the judicial branch.

District Court Judges are allowed to "impose" national injunctions, and none of this has come true.

You understand that injunctions can be appealed, right?
 
Only in a very limited sense. We have plenty of laws, especially when it comes to immigration, that substantively limit the rights of non-citizens. We have other laws that actually define "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" and in those cases the matter is clearly separated between those here lawfully and those here in contravention of the law.

If they find an undocumented person, and they detain them , is that under the authority of their jurisdiction

If they arrest the immigrant, where did the authority to arrest them come from?

The laws in this jurisdiction
 
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