Why Save the Fetus? [W:478]

[minnie616]

Comparing it to an "insane rapist" and "cancer" is not negative? ... compare you to Hitler because you both brown hair...

Read in context ...
I myself would never have thought about comparing an embryo to an insane rapist but if one really reads the context of Choiceones argument and comprehended what she said you would understand the comparison.
Comparing a woman seeking an abortion as a medical solution and person having a tumor removed as a medical solution is just a comparison of two different medical solution.

And if you told me my hair color was the same as Hitler's hair color I would not take that as a negative comparison.

 

[JayDubya]

Do yourself a favor and learn the difference between the words...

Oh the (extreme, mother****ingly overwhelming) irony...

Parasitism is the term for a specific type of negative symbiotic relationship. As a subset of symbiosis, it never happens between two members of the same species.

You and you friends should all do your respective selves a favor and stop pretending to know rudimentary Biology. Either go take a class, buy a book, or expect to keep requiring constant correction on the most basic aspects of life science.

 

[minnie616]

And what provisions were those?



How is requiring that abortion mills be clean, regularly inspected and have hospital admission privileges "less safe"?

It is not about safety...it is about closing abortion clinics and taking choice away from the poor.

From this article:

Abortion hardly has any complications, period.

We’re not revenue generators for hospitals. We don’t bring business to the hospital as abortion providers," Miller said.
Then there’s the provision of the bill that would require abortions to only be performed in facilities that meet the standards of an ambulatory surgical center, or ASC.

Miller has one of the five ASC abortion clinics already up and running in Texas. I took a tour of the San Antonio facility in April. Once we got past the lobby, the facility looked much more like an emergency room than a doctor’s office –including the bright red line that divides the sterile surgical suites from the rest of the center.

“And you see basically an operating room suite that looks like we’re doing brain surgery right. I mean, there’s giant lights on the wall. There’s a big operating room table. There’s a full anesthesia machine. This room is about three or four times the size of a procedure room that would be in an abortion facility," Miller said as we toured one of the clinic surgical suites.

Miller said ASCs, with physical requirements including wide doorways, separate janitors’ closets, and environmental controls that keep rooms cold and blankets warmed to specific temperatures, were created for surgeries.

“Abortion is a procedure. It’s not really a surgery. There’s not any incisions, there’s not any stitches.

The procedure itself takes maybe five or 10 minutes.

So it’s not like an operation that has multiple physicians where the patients knee is open or her belly is open for a sort of more invasive that this sort of ambulatory surgical center was really devised for," Miller said.

And then there’s the cost. Miller said it would have cost her one and a half million dollars to build the center she leases in San Antonio. And it took her six years to find an ASC that was about to close its doors so she could come in and lease it.

The facility costs her $40,000 more a month to operate than her other abortion clinics. She said if the abortion bill becomes law, the cost of upgrading abortion facilities will be too big and the number of clinics in Texas will drop from 42 to 5.

Issue in Texas Abortion Debate: What's an Ambulatory Surgical Center? | KUT News

Issue in Texas Abortion Debate: What's an Ambulatory Surgical Center? | KUT

From this article:

Ambulatory surgical centers, which provide outpatient surgeries, often deal with procedures that require a high level of anesthesia, which is not required in a typical abortion. In a statement on its website, ACOG said it also opposed the provision in the bill that would have required abortion providers to have admitting privileges at a hospital within 30 miles. "ACOG opposes legislation or other requirements that single out abortion services from other outpatient procedures," it said.

While fewer than 1 percent of abortions result in complications that require surgery, according to state health departments,

OB/GYN Docs Say Provisions in Filibustered Texas Abortion Bill Don't Make Sense - US News and World Report

Docs: Texas Abortion Bill Doesn't Make Sense - US News


And this article:

For a reality check, let’s look at Whole Woman’s Health Clinic in McAllen, Texas, a center that performs 1,900 abortions a year. They may be closed down because the hallways won’t meet the new guidelines.
Yet, nine years and roughly 17,000 abortions later, the clinic has sent only two clients to the hospital, who were both successfully treated for bleeding.

OB/GYN Docs Say Provisions in Filibustered Texas Abortion Bill Don't Make Sense - US News and World Report

Docs: Texas Abortion Bill Doesn't Make Sense - US News

-----------------------------------------------------


Judges are already ruling against the laws requiring abortion doctors to have admitting privileges at local hospitals.

July 26,2013

A doctor who filed an affidavit in support of Wisconsin's new abortion regulations provided a federal court with inaccurate information on how difficult it would be for doctors who perform abortions to obtain the hospital admitting privileges required by the law.

The situation highlights the confusion about whether these doctors will be able to gain the privileges they will need if the suspended law is upheld in court.

Matthew Lee, a member of the credentials committee at Wheaton Franciscan St. Joseph Campus in Milwaukee, said in the court declaration he filed last week that many religiously affiliated hospitals across the state could be open to granting such doctors admitting privileges.

But the hospital he works at is not. The chief medical officer for Wheaton Franciscan Healthcare said this week that as a Catholic institution, it would not grant privileges to doctors who perform abortions.

And a spokeswoman for the Columbia St. Mary's Health System said that organization also would deny privileges to physicians who perform abortions "as a matter of our Catholic identity."

The new law, known as Act 37, requires doctors who perform abortions to have admitting privileges at a hospital within a 30-mile radius of their clinics. The law passed the Wisconsin Legislature on June 14 and was signed into law by Gov. Scott Walker on July 5. Abortion clinics promptly sued Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen and a slew of other officials with the authority to enforce the legislation.

U.S. District Judge William Conley has blocked the law from going into effect twice, most recently about a week ago. Conley said July 18 that the state must prove it has a legitimate interest in requiring doctors who provide abortions to have admitting privileges. He will decide by next week whether to issue a preliminary injunction blocking the law for months and has scheduled a trial for Nov. 25 on the act's constitutionality.

Court file shows confusion over Wisconsin abortion regulation law

 

[jmotivator]

I will take these article one at a time, and question the parts I find dishonest:

It is not about safety...it is about closing abortion clinics and taking choice away from the poor.

From this article:


Issue in Texas Abortion Debate: What's an Ambulatory Surgical Center? | KUT News

Issue in Texas Abortion Debate: What's an Ambulatory Surgical Center? | KUT

From this article:

Abortion hardly has any complications, period.

We’re not revenue generators for hospitals. We don’t bring business to the hospital as abortion providers," Miller said.
Then there’s the provision of the bill that would require abortions to only be performed in facilities that meet the standards of an ambulatory surgical center, or ASC.

Miller has one of the five ASC abortion clinics already up and running in Texas. I took a tour of the San Antonio facility in April. Once we got past the lobby, the facility looked much more like an emergency room than a doctor’s office –including the bright red line that divides the sterile surgical suites from the rest of the center.

“And you see basically an operating room suite that looks like we’re doing brain surgery right. I mean, there’s giant lights on the wall. There’s a big operating room table. There’s a full anesthesia machine. This room is about three or four times the size of a procedure room that would be in an abortion facility," Miller said as we toured one of the clinic surgical suites.

Miller said ASCs, with physical requirements including wide doorways, separate janitors’ closets, and environmental controls that keep rooms cold and blankets warmed to specific temperatures, were created for surgeries.

“Abortion is a procedure. It’s not really a surgery. There’s not any incisions, there’s not any stitches.

The procedure itself takes maybe five or 10 minutes.

So it’s not like an operation that has multiple physicians where the patients knee is open or her belly is open for a sort of more invasive that this sort of ambulatory surgical center was really devised for," Miller said.

And then there’s the cost. Miller said it would have cost her one and a half million dollars to build the center she leases in San Antonio. And it took her six years to find an ASC that was about to close its doors so she could come in and lease it.

The facility costs her $40,000 more a month to operate than her other abortion clinics. She said if the abortion bill becomes law, the cost of upgrading abortion facilities will be too big and the number of clinics in Texas will drop from 42 to 5.

Bold part above, if you take this as true, defeats the central tenet of the pro-choice movement. If the baby in the uterus is "the women's body", then there is indeed surgery going on.

Also, the quotes regarding the cleanliness of the given abortion facility isn't evidence that the law wasn't necessary. That is like saying seat belts aren't necessary because you drove home safely.

Also:

The facility costs her $40,000 more a month to operate than her other abortion clinics. She said if the abortion bill becomes law, the cost of upgrading abortion facilities will be too big and the number of clinics in Texas will drop from 42 to 5.

yeah... regulation is a pain in the ass, aint it?

 

[jmotivator]

From this article:

Ambulatory surgical centers, which provide outpatient surgeries, often deal with procedures that require a high level of anesthesia, which is not required in a typical abortion. In a statement on its website, ACOG said it also opposed the provision in the bill that would have required abortion providers to have admitting privileges at a hospital within 30 miles. "ACOG opposes legislation or other requirements that single out abortion services from other outpatient procedures," it said.

While fewer than 1 percent of abortions result in complications that require surgery, according to state health departments,

OB/GYN Docs Say Provisions in Filibustered Texas Abortion Bill Don't Make Sense - US News and World Report

Docs: Texas Abortion Bill Doesn't Make Sense - US News

Yeah, screw that 1%, am I right? Why push improved abortion standards if it will only benefit 10,000 women a year!

 

[jmotivator]

And this article:

For a reality check, let’s look at Whole Woman’s Health Clinic in McAllen, Texas, a center that performs 1,900 abortions a year. They may be closed down because the hallways won’t meet the new guidelines.
Yet, nine years and roughly 17,000 abortions later, the clinic has sent only two clients to the hospital, who were both successfully treated for bleeding.

OB/GYN Docs Say Provisions in Filibustered Texas Abortion Bill Don't Make Sense - US News and World Report

Docs: Texas Abortion Bill Doesn't Make Sense - US News

So we are determining regulation needs based on the anecdotes of one abortion mill? Your own evidence shows that Hospital admittance is necessary in 10,000 abortions annually, so for every one abortion clinic you find with a lower trend than 1% there is another abortion mill that is OVER that average and in need of regulation.

Like I said, regulation is a pain in the ass, but I would bet that abortion is one of only a handful of industries where your argument is for less regulation.

 

[prometeus]

Oh the (extreme, mother****ingly overwhelming) irony...

You mean the stupidity and ignorance. For one constantly harping about the meaning of words this is a brilliant example of hypocrisy.
The ****ing word was PARASITIC and it is and adjective. So take your fall indignation an trade it in for a dictionary.

You and you friends should all do your respective selves a favor and stop pretending to know rudimentary Biology.

It has been demonstrated time and again that "we" have forgotten more that you will ever know, including basic meaning of words.

 

[JayDubya]

You mean the stupidity and ignorance. For one constantly harping about the meaning of words this is a brilliant example of hypocrisy.
The ****ing word was PARASITIC and it is and adjective. So take your fall indignation an trade it in for a dictionary.

It has been demonstrated time and again that "we" have forgotten more that you will ever know, including basic meaning of words.

As I said, you haven't the first clue when it comes to the most basic concepts of life science.

If you want to suggest that you or your peers are "stupid" or "ignorant" I wouldn't argue very hard against that premise, but it wasn't I that said it.

 

[jmotivator]

Judges are already ruling against the laws requiring abortion doctors to have admitting privileges at local hospitals.

July 26,2013

A doctor who filed an affidavit in support of Wisconsin's new abortion regulations provided a federal court with inaccurate information on how difficult it would be for doctors who perform abortions to obtain the hospital admitting privileges required by the law.

The situation highlights the confusion about whether these doctors will be able to gain the privileges they will need if the suspended law is upheld in court.

Matthew Lee, a member of the credentials committee at Wheaton Franciscan St. Joseph Campus in Milwaukee, said in the court declaration he filed last week that many religiously affiliated hospitals across the state could be open to granting such doctors admitting privileges.

But the hospital he works at is not. The chief medical officer for Wheaton Franciscan Healthcare said this week that as a Catholic institution, it would not grant privileges to doctors who perform abortions.

And a spokeswoman for the Columbia St. Mary's Health System said that organization also would deny privileges to physicians who perform abortions "as a matter of our Catholic identity."

The new law, known as Act 37, requires doctors who perform abortions to have admitting privileges at a hospital within a 30-mile radius of their clinics. The law passed the Wisconsin Legislature on June 14 and was signed into law by Gov. Scott Walker on July 5. Abortion clinics promptly sued Attorney General J.B. Van Hollen and a slew of other officials with the authority to enforce the legislation.

U.S. District Judge William Conley has blocked the law from going into effect twice, most recently about a week ago. Conley said July 18 that the state must prove it has a legitimate interest in requiring doctors who provide abortions to have admitting privileges. He will decide by next week whether to issue a preliminary injunction blocking the law for months and has scheduled a trial for Nov. 25 on the act's constitutionality.

Court file shows confusion over Wisconsin abortion regulation law

That isn't "ruling against the law", the ruling is still pending. That is the court requesting evidence for upholding the law.

Also, an interesting side note from this Guttmacher pro-choice article:

Even in the early 1970s, when abortion was legal in some states, a legal abortion was simply out of reach for many. Minority women suffered the most: The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention estimates that in 1972 alone, 130,000 women obtained illegal or self-induced procedures, 39 of whom died. Furthermore, from 1972 to 1974, the mortality rate due to illegal abortion for nonwhite women was 12 times that for white women.

That is actually a lower rate of fatality than has been found in women after they have an abortion.

I know it's very clinical and bean counter of me and appears to have little regard for the women who die from "illegal abortion", but since the pro-choice folks don't seem to mind endangering 10,000 women every year....

 

[prometeus]

As I said, you haven't the first clue when it comes to the most basic concepts of life science.

Yes you said many things in the past, none that were really intelligent or relevant, and in the few instances where they skirted reality all have been refuted, but you are more than welcome to the delusions.

If you want to suggest that you or your peers are "stupid" or "ignorant"

Maybe you should have someone who understands basic English help you. The suggestion of stupidity was in reference to the inability to differentiate between parasitic and parasitism, and that is all on you.

I wouldn't argue very hard against that premise...

But you do try very hard to argue the untenable points you attempt to make, just not well at all.

 

[JayDubya]

Sorry, prom, but by basic grammar rules you are incorrect.

It's usually impossible to discern what you intended to say, but we can help you understand what the words you just used meant.

 

[JayDubya]

Sorry, prom, but by basic grammar rules you are incorrect.

It's usually impossible to discern what you intended to say, but we can help you understand what the words you just used meant.

 

[choiceone]

Oh the (extreme, mother****ingly overwhelming) irony...

Parasitism is the term for a specific type of negative symbiotic relationship. As a subset of symbiosis, it never happens between two members of the same species.

You and you friends should all do your respective selves a favor and stop pretending to know rudimentary Biology. Either go take a class, buy a book, or expect to keep requiring constant correction on the most basic aspects of life science.

Any concepts in biological ecology can be applied to biological organisms of any species. Biological ecologists have used their own concepts to describe relations between organisms of the same species. The most common use of the concept intraspecific parasitism is for brood parasitism (http://behav.zoology.unibe.ch/sysuif/uploads/files/Parasitism_1.pdf). However, thanks to the research of T Pietsch over decades, it is not scientifically controversial now to note the sexual parasitism of the male anglerfish even in Wikipedia (Anglerfish - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia), and a particular type of case of conjoined twins is of parasitic and host twins (Parasitic twin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

If this sort of biology is not rudimentary enough for you, I really don't know what to say. We already call a twin completely contained within the body of the other twin of the same species a parasitic twin. The male deep sea ceratioid anglerfish is already described as parasitic on the female. What is your problem?

 

[choiceone]

I will take these article one at a time, and question the parts I find dishonest:



Bold part above, if you take this as true, defeats the central tenet of the pro-choice movement. If the baby in the uterus is "the women's body", then there is indeed surgery going on.

You're crazy. Do we need surgery to cut off a fingernail or some hair from a person, to remove a wart or a boil, to pull out a tooth? Yet these are all parts of a person's body.

 

[Lursa]

Bold part above, if you take this as true, defeats the central tenet of the pro-choice movement. If the baby in the uterus is "the women's body", then there is indeed surgery going on.
?

No, it's not surgery. There is no incision, no anesthesia, it is a chemical and flushing procedure.

Those arent definitions but surgery is a much more complicated, invasive subset of 'procedure.'

 

[Lursa]

And if you told me my hair color was the same as Hitler's hair color I would not take that as a negative comparison.

Yeah but how would you feel if he compared your mustache to Hitler's?

 

[choiceone]

So we are determining regulation needs based on the anecdotes of one abortion mill? Your own evidence shows that Hospital admittance is necessary in 10,000 abortions annually, so for every one abortion clinic you find with a lower trend than 1% there is another abortion mill that is OVER that average and in need of regulation.

Like I said, regulation is a pain in the ass, but I would bet that abortion is one of only a handful of industries where your argument is for less regulation.

Can you please refrain from using the completely inaccurate term "abortion mill"? Here's the google definition for mill
(noun): 1. a building equipped with machinery for grinding grain into flour. synonyms: factory, (processing) plant, works, workshop, shop, foundry; informal salt mine(s); "a steel mill"; a piece of machinery that grinds grain into flour; a domestic device for grinding a solid substance to powder or pulp; "a coffee mill." synonyms: grinder, crusher, quern; "a pepper mill";
a building fitted with machinery for a manufacturing process; "a steel mill"; a piece of manufacturing machinery; a place that processes things or people in a mechanical way; "a correspondence school that was just a diploma mill"
2. informal: an engine.

There is not a single item here that would make sense of the expression "abortion mill."

As I noted above, later abortions are usually done in hospitals because they are more likely to involve complications immediately. Early abortions are safer than a root canal. In light of this, why is it important to regulate a clinic that performs only early abortions according to regulations suitable for a clinic that can perform brain surgery?

I don't know about conservatives, but a lot of us liberals can't stand the over-regulation of businesses, especially as applied to small businesses. But it is a fact, you know, that Planned Parenthood is a major abortion provider, and it is not a business, because it is a non-profit organization. . .

 

[jmotivator]

You're crazy. Do we need surgery to cut off a fingernail or some hair from a person, to remove a wart or a boil, to pull out a tooth? Yet these are all parts of a person's body.

Show me someone who has died from a hair cut or nail clipping. Dentists have the same requirements as a doctor's office.

 

[jmotivator]

Can you please refrain from using the completely inaccurate term "abortion mill"?

Let me give this some thought.

No.

 

[jmotivator]

No, it's not surgery. There is no incision, no anesthesia, it is a chemical and flushing procedure.

Those arent definitions but surgery is a much more complicated, invasive subset of 'procedure.'

sur·ger·y
ˈsərjərē/
noun
noun: surgery; plural noun: surgeries

1.
the treatment of injuries or disorders of the body by incision or manipulation, esp. with instruments.

In an abortion the amniotic sac is punctured and drained and the baby is either vacuumed out, if small enough, or cut into pieces and vacuumed out:



Surgery.

It's so funny too because in order to not qualify as surgery you have to admit that pregnancy is not an illness or disorder, and that the unborn are not part of the woman's body... in other words, give up 99% of the argument for pro-choice in order to avoid calling the procedure surgery.

But then that is the downfall of having an illogical, cobbled together ideology. When you have to defend it you invariably have to concede other parts of the ideology that conflict with your argument du jour.

 

[Lursa]

Show me someone who has died from a hair cut or nail clipping. Dentists have the same requirements as a doctor's office.

Yer making crap up now. People can die of sepsis from nail clipping. Or MERSA.

 

[Lursa]

In an abortion the amniotic sac is punctured and drained and the baby is either vacuumed out, if small enough, or cut into pieces and vacuumed out:

View attachment 67164650

Surgery.

LOL


Nobody cares about the fetus...it is being removed. We are talking about a procedure the *woman* is having.

 

[Lursa]

Oh the (extreme, mother****ingly overwhelming) irony...


You and you friends should all do your respective selves a favor and stop pretending to know rudimentary Biology. Either go take a class, buy a book, or expect to keep requiring constant correction on the most basic aspects of life science.

Hey, here's a fact for you.

100% of "fertilized human eggs" never do anything because they don't exist; there's no such thing and you sound profoundly uneducated every time you say something so ignorant of fact.

Did you attend Rude and Nasty University? Enlighten us all with your knowledge on conception. You sound extremely vile...but anyway, carry on. Give us the TRUTH about the nonexistence of fertilized human eggs.
SOURCES PLEASE...

Pretty sure correcting blatantly obvious scientific error can come with attending Biology class at virtually any university.
A Homo sapiens in the zygote stage of life is not a "fertilized egg." Post fertilization, there is no egg cell, there is no sperm cell. Sexual reproduction. Mammalian embryology. Topics you can read about sometime.

Yada yada yada, more back and forth between RM and JD and finally:

Merriam's Dictionary:

zy•gote noun \ˈzī-ˌgōt\

biology : a cell that is formed when an egg and a sperm combine : a fertilized egg

Just as accurate as your usual hostile tirades JD! Thanks for playing.

 

[jmotivator]

Yer making crap up now. People can die of sepsis from nail clipping. Or MERSA.

You still haven't shown me any evidence of this happening. Also, are you now going to lobby against back ally nail clipping?

 

[jmotivator]

LOL

Nobody cares about the fetus...it is being removed. We are talking about a procedure the *woman* is having.

"or manipulated, especially with instruments" Do I have to go get the doll in order to explain that diagram to you?

Also, with the Texas law the abortion mills will mostly close so women would have to get an abortion at their OB/GYN since they already meet the qualifications under the Texas law.