• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Why progressives are against private firearm ownership

aociswundumho

aociswundumho

Capitalist Pig
DP Veteran
Joined
Aug 6, 2019
Messages
15,086
Reaction score
6,810
Location
Bridgeport, CT
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian - Right
The leftist position against private ownership of firearms comes directly from their core values:

1. Progressives are collectivists, they reject individualism. The modern progressive has no moral qualms about sacrificing individuals for the "common good".

For example, suppose a woman believes her crazy, jealous ex-boyfriend is likely to try to kill her. She goes out to buy a gun, but she lives in Commiefornia where the progressives there have instituted a 10 day waiting period. During the waiting period, the ex-boyfriend breaks into her place and strangles her to death with her own pantyhose. Leftists will view her murder as a necessary sacrifrice for the common good.

2. Progressives are socialists, they want the state to control production and distribution of guns, hence the mountain of regulations pertaining to which guns may be sold and to whom and under what circumstances. Two hundred years ago justice John Marshall said "the power to tax involves the power to destroy", which is of course true. But the power to regulate also grants the rotten government the power to destroy.

3. Finally, progressivism is synonymous with statism. They reject the very idea of private self defense, they want you dependent on the government for protection (and everything else for that matter).

But what about liberal gun owners, don't they exist? Sure, they exist. Most of them are environmentalists as well, while they drive around in their gas guzzling SUVs and have a personal consumption expenditure of over 40k per year. Progressive values are to be imposed on other people, not themselves. That's why after they ruin a particular state, they move out of it, to go ruin another.
 
They'll win in the end. Y'all know that, right?
 
dex4974 said:
They'll win in the end. Y'all know that, right?
Click to expand...
The odds that we will be the one civilization that endures forever are quite low. Whether it's a meteor impact or socialist takeover that leads to destruction of this civilization, we're bound to fall.
 
aociswundumho said:
The leftist position against private ownership of firearms comes directly from their core values:

1. Progressives are collectivists, they reject individualism. The modern progressive has no moral qualms about sacrificing individuals for the "common good".

For example, suppose a woman believes her crazy, jealous ex-boyfriend is likely to try to kill her. She goes out to buy a gun, but she lives in Commiefornia where the progressives there have instituted a 10 day waiting period. During the waiting period, the ex-boyfriend breaks into her place and strangles her to death with her own pantyhose. Leftists will view her murder as a necessary sacrifrice for the common good.

2. Progressives are socialists, they want the state to control production and distribution of guns, hence the mountain of regulations pertaining to which guns may be sold and to whom and under what circumstances. Two hundred years ago justice John Marshall said "the power to tax involves the power to destroy", which is of course true. But the power to regulate also grants the rotten government the power to destroy.

3. Finally, progressivism is synonymous with statism. They reject the very idea of private self defense, they want you dependent on the government for protection (and everything else for that matter).

But what about liberal gun owners, don't they exist? Sure, they exist. Most of them are environmentalists as well, while they drive around in their gas guzzling SUVs and have a personal consumption expenditure of over 40k per year. Progressive values are to be imposed on other people, not themselves. That's why after they ruin a particular state, they move out of it, to go ruin another.
Click to expand...
I own firearms and so do progressive friends of mine.
 
It gets crazier and crazier each day. Let's just make up 'facts' about democrats and tell each other how horrible and unamerican they are.

God, guns and abortion. You can count on it every presidential election.
 
I am a democrat. I also own quite a few guns. They can't have them.

Republicans have been using that tired old "they are going to take your guns" argument for decades. It hasn't happened and I have no fear it is even close to happening. The hard left may use it for a talking point but reality is they know it is not possible

Sort of like Republicans saying they are going to get rid of the illegal labor.
 
aociswundumho said:
The leftist position against private ownership of firearms comes directly from their core values:

1. Progressives are collectivists, they reject individualism. The modern progressive has no moral qualms about sacrificing individuals for the "common good".

For example, suppose a woman believes her crazy, jealous ex-boyfriend is likely to try to kill her. She goes out to buy a gun, but she lives in Commiefornia where the progressives there have instituted a 10 day waiting period. During the waiting period, the ex-boyfriend breaks into her place and strangles her to death with her own pantyhose. Leftists will view her murder as a necessary sacrifrice for the common good.

2. Progressives are socialists, they want the state to control production and distribution of guns, hence the mountain of regulations pertaining to which guns may be sold and to whom and under what circumstances. Two hundred years ago justice John Marshall said "the power to tax involves the power to destroy", which is of course true. But the power to regulate also grants the rotten government the power to destroy.

3. Finally, progressivism is synonymous with statism. They reject the very idea of private self defense, they want you dependent on the government for protection (and everything else for that matter).

But what about liberal gun owners, don't they exist? Sure, they exist. Most of them are environmentalists as well, while they drive around in their gas guzzling SUVs and have a personal consumption expenditure of over 40k per year. Progressive values are to be imposed on other people, not themselves. That's why after they ruin a particular state, they move out of it, to go ruin another.
Click to expand...

aoc...ho:

1) How many lives are being sacrificed in the name of irresponsible individualism expressed in a gun-saturated society? With inalienable rights come inalienable responsibilities or societies disintegrate into tribal violence. Responsible gun ownership is a good thing but unfettered and irresponsible gun ownership I s making America a firearms-fueled meatgrinder.

Are not militias, which claim to defend the individual rights of Americans through the threat of coordinated, forceful use of firearms, not collectives in the service of the second ammendment. Is not the NRA a collectivist institution. Collectivism is a standard tool for magnifying individual rights as well as expressing collective rights.

2) While what you say here may be true for a small fraction of radical progressives, most progressives want responsible private gun ownership and use to replace unfettered gun ownership/possession in a highly over-armed society which over values rights and undervalues the attached responsibilities which come hand in hand with those rights. Gun ownership rights are clashing with others' right to life and responsible people want a solution to that clash of rights. Okay, you hate government and want to live unfettered in a society which leaves you alone. It's not going to happen, and it never happened in American history. The same men who wrote your beloved second ammendment simultaneously wrote militia regulation bills placing onerous responsibilities on citizens who were required by law both to own firearms and to present themselves personally for regular, periodic inspection of their firearms, their ammunition and themselves. So you're living in a dream world based on a past which never existed.

3) Many progressives are anti-statists including radical anti-statists such as anarchists, left-leaning libertarians or unionists which work to be countervaeiling forces against the power of the state. Statism is as much a symptom of progressivism at it is of conservatism today, which lavishes great largesse on military and economic statism in foreign policy. Statism is as rooted in the expression of de facto conservative values as it is in de facto expression of progressive values in the modern world. But then I expect you might reject the modern world too, perchance?

So in conclusion, your three points do not hold true under closer inspection and are rooted in ideology rather than reality and fact.

Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
 
Last edited:
aociswundumho said:
The leftist position against private ownership of firearms comes directly from their core values:

1. Progressives are collectivists, they reject individualism. The modern progressive has no moral qualms about sacrificing individuals for the "common good".

For example, suppose a woman believes her crazy, jealous ex-boyfriend is likely to try to kill her. She goes out to buy a gun, but she lives in Commiefornia where the progressives there have instituted a 10 day waiting period. During the waiting period, the ex-boyfriend breaks into her place and strangles her to death with her own pantyhose. Leftists will view her murder as a necessary sacrifrice for the common good.

2. Progressives are socialists, they want the state to control production and distribution of guns, hence the mountain of regulations pertaining to which guns may be sold and to whom and under what circumstances. Two hundred years ago justice John Marshall said "the power to tax involves the power to destroy", which is of course true. But the power to regulate also grants the rotten government the power to destroy.

3. Finally, progressivism is synonymous with statism. They reject the very idea of private self defense, they want you dependent on the government for protection (and everything else for that matter).

But what about liberal gun owners, don't they exist? Sure, they exist. Most of them are environmentalists as well, while they drive around in their gas guzzling SUVs and have a personal consumption expenditure of over 40k per year. Progressive values are to be imposed on other people, not themselves. That's why after they ruin a particular state, they move out of it, to go ruin another.
Click to expand...
I don't think so..... we have police who would love to have guns! It just shows the sick mentality those psychosomatic tests used in recruitment throws up!
The very idea idiots should have a right to a gun proves my case for me!
It has nothing to do with republican or democrats left right conservative or liberal, it's only right and wrong, but profits of the gun industry lives on the backs of dead Americans!
 
bongsaway said:
It gets crazier and crazier each day. Let's just make up 'facts' about democrats and tell each other how horrible and unamerican they are.

God, guns and abortion. You can count on it every presidential election.
Click to expand...
Except that they are not made up. The Democratic Party has 192 years of very well documented atrocities against the American people. Including starting a war that killed more Americans than all the foreign wars the US has ever fought - combined. There has been no greater threat to the US than the Democratic Party. Only an ignorant fool could dare claim that Democrats were not anti-American. History amply proves that they are.
 
Glitch said:
Except that they are not made up. The Democratic Party has 192 years of very well documented atrocities against the American people. Including starting a war that killed more Americans than all the foreign wars the US has ever fought - combined. There has been no greater threat to the US than the Democratic Party. Only an ignorant fool could dare claim that Democrats were not anti-American. History amply proves that they are.
Click to expand...
Lots of accusations, no examples. Only an ignorant fool would believe you.
 
Evilroddy said:
aoc...ho:

1) How many lives are being sacrificed in the name of irresponsible individualism expressed in a gun-saturated society? With inalienable rights come inalienable responsibilities or societies disintegrate into tribal violence. Responsible gun ownership is a good thing but unfettered and irresponsible gun ownership I s making America a firearms-fueled meatgrinder.
Click to expand...

The U.S. has the highest rate of firearm ownership in the world, but if you look at a chart of countries and sort by intentional homicide rate, you'll see that America's rate of 4.96 per 100,000 is not particularly noteworthy. Furthermore, violent crime in the US is extremely concentrated:

The Washington Times said:
The vast majority of homicides occurred in just 5 percent of counties, and even there the murders were localized, with some neighborhoods untouched by the violence, according to a new report released Tuesday by the Crime Prevention Research Center.
Click to expand...

Most of the violent crime the US is caused by inner city gangs killing each other in democratically control cities. If you don't count them, the US has a very low crime rate, along with 400 to 500 million guns in private hands.

2) While what you say here may be true for a small fraction of radical progressives, most progressives want responsible private gun ownership and use to replace unfettered gun ownership/possession in a highly over-armed society which over values rights and undervalues the attached responsibilities which come hand in hand with those rights.
Click to expand...

If that were true, progressives would concentrate on handgun violence in inner cities. Instead, they push for laws that disarm or harass responsible gun owners.

3) Many progressives are anti-statists including radical anti-statists such as anarchists, left-leaning libertarians or unionists which work to be countervaeiling forces against the power of the state.
Click to expand...


I have yet to come across an actual anti-state leftist. Chomsky is one of the most prominent "libertarian socialists" and libertarian socialism is supposedly anti-authoritarian and anti-statist. Yet Chomsky luved the Khmer Rouge and Chavez:

chomsky chavez.jpg


Cheers and be well.
Evilroddy.
Click to expand...

Same to you.
 
aociswundumho said:
The U.S. has the highest rate of firearm ownership in the world, but if you look at a chart of countries and sort by intentional homicide rate, you'll see that America's rate of 4.96 per 100,000 is not particularly noteworthy. Furthermore, violent crime in the US is extremely concentrated:



Most of the violent crime the US is caused by inner city gangs killing each other in democratically control cities. If you don't count them, the US has a very low crime rate, along with 400 to 500 million guns in private hands.



If that were true, progressives would concentrate on handgun violence in inner cities. Instead, they push for laws that disarm or harass responsible gun owners.




I have yet to come across an actual anti-state leftist. Chomsky is one of the most prominent "libertarian socialists" and libertarian socialism is supposedly anti-authoritarian and anti-statist. Yet Chomsky luved the Khmer Rouge and Chavez:

View attachment 67298942




Same to you.
Click to expand...
But the Venezuelan people have oil and gas, and thieving illegitimate vermin, want it! Just like the Syrian and Iraqi oil and gas stolen by American military and American corporate thieves!
 
Highlanders said:
But the Venezuelan people have oil and gas, and thieving illegitimate vermin, want it! Just like the Syrian and Iraqi oil and gas stolen by American military and American corporate thieves!
Click to expand...

More Highlander ignorance.

The US was actually in a partnership with Venezuela and was paying even during the sanctions.

And Iraq is selling oil to everyone but the US.

Syria makes little oil and it is the Kurds taking a portion of it.
 
Fledermaus said:
More Highlander ignorance.

The US was actually in a partnership with Venezuela and was paying even during the sanctions.

And Iraq is selling oil to everyone but the US.

Syria makes little oil and it is the Kurds taking a portion of it.
Click to expand...
But I don't have your friends to please or your axe to grind, nothing to gain, nothing to lose...... unlike you, my German friend of Zion!
 
Who is stealing Syrian assets?
Who is using illegally the American military forces, in a Syrian sovereign territory, taking American integrity to a previously unknown low level! Notice, the reputation of America and Americans is secondary to Israeli demands.
 
Highlanders said:
Who is stealing Syrian assets?
Who is using illegally the American military forces, in a Syrian sovereign territory, taking American integrity to a previously unknown low level! Notice, the reputation of America and Americans is secondary to Israeli demands.
Click to expand...

Blaming the Jews because the US helped kick ISIS ass and are supporting the Kurds.

How predictable.
 
aociswundumho said:
The leftist position against private ownership of firearms comes directly from their core values:

1. Progressives are collectivists, they reject individualism. The modern progressive has no moral qualms about sacrificing individuals for the "common good".

For example, suppose a woman believes her crazy, jealous ex-boyfriend is likely to try to kill her. She goes out to buy a gun, but she lives in Commiefornia where the progressives there have instituted a 10 day waiting period. During the waiting period, the ex-boyfriend breaks into her place and strangles her to death with her own pantyhose. Leftists will view her murder as a necessary sacrifrice for the common good.

2. Progressives are socialists, they want the state to control production and distribution of guns, hence the mountain of regulations pertaining to which guns may be sold and to whom and under what circumstances. Two hundred years ago justice John Marshall said "the power to tax involves the power to destroy", which is of course true. But the power to regulate also grants the rotten government the power to destroy.

3. Finally, progressivism is synonymous with statism. They reject the very idea of private self defense, they want you dependent on the government for protection (and everything else for that matter).

But what about liberal gun owners, don't they exist? Sure, they exist. Most of them are environmentalists as well, while they drive around in their gas guzzling SUVs and have a personal consumption expenditure of over 40k per year. Progressive values are to be imposed on other people, not themselves. That's why after they ruin a particular state, they move out of it, to go ruin another.
Click to expand...


lol
 
Fledermaus said:
Blaming the Jews because the US helped kick ISIS ass and are supporting the Kurds.

How predictable.
Click to expand...
Why is American military stealing oil and gas, protecting the convoys of tankers into Iraq? Not because Nancy American wants Syrian oil..... so who said, they would do anything that protects Israel? It wasn't me! I was blaming Israel. I can't do anything about who is committing the crime as I've stated before, but I won't sell out Americans, unlike you my German friend of Zion.
Now please let's try to stay with the thread shall we?
 
Highlanders said:
Why is American military stealing oil and gas, protecting the convoys of tankers into Iraq? Not because Nancy American wants Syrian oil..... so who said, they would do anything that protects Israel? It wasn't me! I was blaming Israel. I can't do anything about who is committing the crime as I've stated before, but I won't sell out Americans, unlike you my German friend of Zion.
Now please let's try to stay with the thread shall we?
Click to expand...
Every day you mention israel and how much you hate them
 
Highlanders said:
Why is American military stealing oil and gas, protecting the convoys of tankers into Iraq? Not because Nancy American wants Syrian oil..... so who said, they would do anything that protects Israel? It wasn't me! I was blaming Israel. I can't do anything about who is committing the crime as I've stated before, but I won't sell out Americans, unlike you my German friend of Zion.
Now please let's try to stay with the thread shall we?
Click to expand...

What the hell are you babbling about now?
 
aociswundumho said:
The U.S. has the highest rate of firearm ownership in the world, but if you look at a chart of countries and sort by intentional homicide rate, you'll see that America's rate of 4.96 per 100,000 is not particularly noteworthy. Furthermore, violent crime in the US is extremely concentrated:
Click to expand...

True, America's homicide rate is not particularly noteworthy among similar countries, like Kazakhstan (5.00), Cuba (4.99), Kenya (4.93) and Angola (4.85).

The idea liberals have is that instead of aspiring to be like Kazakhstan, Cuba, Kenya, and Angola, The US could be more like Switzerland (0.59).

Switzerland has an almost equivalent percentage of gun owners, with 28% owning a gun, compared with 30% in the US.

Progressives aren't against private firearm ownership writ large. Many progressives would be quite happy to follow Switzerland's lead in this, with plenty of armed citizens forming a well-regulated militia.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom