Why not outlaw abortion

[Scrabaholic]

How would you feel if your 15-year old daughter had an abortion, no mandatory waiting period, no counseling, no parental notification? As a parent, how would that make you feel?

I would hope that I had been a good parent and made her feel comfortable telling me about her situation, but that if she wasn't, she had someone to go with her and give her support.

 

[Scrabaholic]

That's what it's like in my state.

It's the same here in Canada. Abortion on demand was illegal here when I was a teen, but my parents discussed things with me and made it clear that if I got pregnant despite them teaching me about birth control and advising me to tell them if I wanted to be sexually active so they could get me on the pill, that they would support me no matter what choice I made (parenting vs placing for adoption). I'm sure they would have said the same about abortion had it been legal (they were both pro choice).

 

[Bucky]

Hopefully she'll be more careful in the future, learn something, and then have others someday when she's ready?

Why is your (hypothetical) 15 daughter out there having sex AND not telling you she's pregnant? Hmm...seems there's more 'blame' to go around here.

In a country where you cannot legally drive until the age of 18 or drink until the age of 21, you find it morally/legally acceptable for a minor to abort her baby? How about a 13-year old?

And again you cannot read properly, or choose to ignore 'severely defective' and the pain and suffering and usually imminent death that accompanies such a diagnosis for a fetus. Demanding that parents must deliver a baby into that non-existent quality of life is the opposite of mercy and again, I'm the one questioning *your* Christianity.

I am not ignoring your question. I choose not to answer your question because I find the premise of your question flawed.

You have already equated a fetus to a non-living organism. You have devalued a fetus to human tissue or body parts. That is scientifically inaccurate.

All human beings should be treated equally with the right to life they so truly deserve. A fetus is simply a stage of development in the life of a human organism.

I respect your scientifically flawed assertion that a fetus is not a human, even though it is morally abominable.

I believe an action is good or evil in itself. You on the other hand subscribe to a immoral version of utilitarianism.

 

[Lursa]

I am not ignoring your question. I choose not to answer your question because I find the premise of your question flawed.

From what I have seen, that is because your rigidly held beliefs prevent you from doing so. Not because of any effective reasons.

You have already equated a fetus to a non-living organism. You have devalued a fetus to human tissue or body parts. That is scientifically inaccurate.

That's a life. The unborn is human and I have never claimed otherwise. The unborn human is alive, of course. Anyone with a grammar school education knows this.

What is it NOT, is a person, and not equal to born people.

All human beings should be treated equally with the right to life they so truly deserve. A fetus is simply a stage of development in the life of a human organism.

That would be nice, but all humans cannot be treated equally, practically or legally. I've asked you more than once HOW they could be, and you are unable to answer that.

I've also asked you more than once, that since they cannot be treated equally, why you place the (imagined) rights of the unborn above those same exact rights for women. Again, you are unable to answer that. So I'd say you are unable to support your postion morally or logically or legally...you provide no reasons for me to think otherwise.

I respect your scientifically flawed assertion that a fetus is not a human, even though it is morally abominable.

I believe an action is good or evil in itself. You on the other hand subscribe to a immoral version of utilitarianism.

Again, never ever claimed a fetus was not human so your moral outrage is nothing more than invented self-indulgance.

And I agree, and I see your complete willingness to suborn women and their rights to those (imagined) for the unborn to be either evil or complete ignorance. Which is it in your case?

 

[minnie616]

Of couse a human fetus is human.

Pro choice does not believe otherwise.
The US law does not recognize the unborn as a person and therefore an unborn does not have the same rights as a born person.

 

[Lursa]

Of couse a human fetus is human.

Pro choice does not believe otherwise.
The US law does not recognize the unborn as a person and therefore an unborn does not have the same rights as a born person.

Pretty sure that definition was provided for him many posts ago.

What I keep asking is why he believes the unborn SHOULD be accorded those rights which would then, when protected by law, would require the violation of many of the rights of women, up to and including their lives.

No answer.

 

[minnie616]

In a country where you cannot legally drive until the age of 18 or drink until the age of 21, you find it morally/legally acceptable for a minor to abort her baby? ...

Actually I thought the legal age to drive in the US is 16.
But that is not what this thread is about.
Abortion is a moral decision.

There is a religious moral case for pro choice. No woman should be coerced to carry a pregnancy to term.
Shortly after the 2004 march, I convened 12 theologians from diverse religious backgrounds to develop an Open Letter to Religious Leaders on Abortion as A Moral Decision. These theologians agreed that precisely because life and parenthood are so precious, no woman should be coerced to carry a pregnancy to term. The Open Letter calls for a religious and moral commitment to reproductive health and rights, including comprehensive sexuality education, contraception and safe, legal and accessible abortion services. Further, the theologians affirmed that no single religious voice can speak for all faith traditions on abortion, nor should government take sides on religious differences.


Women must have the right to apply or reject the principles of their own faith without legal restrictions. More than 1,600 clergy have signed this Open Letter.

There is a religious and moral case for safe, legal and accessible abortion services. It is true that religious traditions have different beliefs on the value of fetal life, often according greater value as fetal development progresses. Science, medicine, law and philosophy contribute to this understanding. However, many religious traditions teach that the health and life of the woman must take precedence over the life of the fetus.

Christian and Hebrew scriptures neither condemn nor prohibit abortion. They do, however, call us to act compassionately and justly when facing difficult moral decisions. Women must have the right to apply or reject the principles of their own faith without legal restrictions or accessibility barriers.
The scriptural commitment to the most marginalized means that pregnancy, childbearing and abortion should be safe for all women, just as a scriptural commitment to truth-telling means that women must have accurate information as they make their decisions.

Abortion is a Moral Decision by Rev. Debra W. Haffner

 

[Soho gator]

As a reasonable person I think it's a no brainier that a 13 year old should not have a baby.

 

[prometeus]

Often times that is the tactic from those of the elite/hate mongering, religiophobia snobs.

Or like in this case it is as simple as pointing out stupidity in posts.

Christians should never be ashamed for voicing their faith.

Nobody has asked you to be ashamed of your faith, but perhaps and since you offered bible verses, you can point out which bible verse encourages condescending attitudes or ignorance of facts. Or perhaps you can show us where Christ condemned instead of being an example.

 

[Peter King]

In a country where you cannot legally drive until the age of 18 or drink until the age of 21, you find it morally/legally acceptable for a minor to abort her baby? How about a 13-year old?

13 year old children should not get pregnant because they are too young to have sex or understand the consequences of that sex. So most likely a girl that young became pregnant due to rape and/or incest and I would hope that the child would have a morning after pill or abortion to not exponentially increase her suffering by forcing her to be a mother when she is not even old enough to realize the enormity of that kind of responsibility. Abortion might not be a great thing, but forcing a child to have a child because some religiously inclined person thinks he/she has the right to ban abortions is much worse.

I am not ignoring your question. I choose not to answer your question because I find the premise of your question flawed.

You have already equated a fetus to a non-living organism. You have devalued a fetus to human tissue or body parts. That is scientifically inaccurate.

All human beings should be treated equally with the right to life they so truly deserve. A fetus is simply a stage of development in the life of a human organism.

I respect your scientifically flawed assertion that a fetus is not a human, even though it is morally abominable.

I believe an action is good or evil in itself. You on the other hand subscribe to a immoral version of utilitarianism.

The premise is not flawed. Especially not if you discuss from the very flawed premise that a zygote is a person with the right reserved for actual/born human beings. And until there is a soul/the ability to think and learn, a ZEF is just indeed a collection of body parts and human tissue. Just like when a person has fallen into brain death they will be kept alive (in some cases) until all the possible body parts and tissues can be harvested to save actual living human beings?

I think the question is very relevant in the abortion discussion on a very valid premise.

 

[Bucky]

Pretty sure that definition was provided for him many posts ago.

What I keep asking is why he believes the unborn SHOULD be accorded those rights which would then, when protected by law, would require the violation of many of the rights of women, up to and including their lives.

No answer.

Actions have consequences.

You have been speaking in hyperboles. The fact is the majority of abortions have nothing to do with rape, incest, the mothers health or babies health.

The majority of women that have abortions had consensual sex. The man did not wear a condom, birth control or contraceptives were not used, etc... They weren't forced to have sex. Again, lets be real.

The woman is making a selfish choice. Lursa, if you and I had consensual sex and you became pregnant, that should be a monumental moment in your life.

Destroying that beautiful life would be abominable.

 

[Lursa]

Actions have consequences.

Yes, so? Women are not avoiding consequences, abortion is a consequence, painful and possibly harmful, even deadly.

Are you suggesting women be forced to be mothers as punishment, that's "their consequence"? Yeah, way to dehumanize and use the unborn!

You have been speaking in hyperboles. The fact is the majority of abortions have nothing to do with rape, incest, the mothers health or babies health.

No, I have not. I have been mostly addressing late term abortion in our posts and those were almost all regarding late term abortion. You however said that none of those things justified abortion, something I find appalling, and I did comment on it.

The majority of women that have abortions had consensual sex. The man did not wear a condom, birth control or contraceptives were not used, etc... They weren't forced to have sex. Again, lets be real.

Yes, let's be real. People have had sex FOREVER and in the past it was much more likely to kill her, spread disease, get someone disowned, exiled, cast out into poverty, beaten, etc etc etc (some for both men and women.) And they still had sex. Today, sex is safer, as is pregnancy AND abortion.

Sex is a great thing to enjoy, nothing stopped people in the past and certainly nothing is going to stop them today, definitely not YOUR judgemental opinion of it.

Adults are free to enjoy sex as they wish, nobody cares what you think about it, and women are free to choose how to handle an unexpected pregnancy if it occurs. You have sex when you want it and other people will do as they choose.

The woman is making a selfish choice. Lursa, if you and I had consensual sex and you became pregnant, that should be a monumental moment in your life.

It's not selfish, it's very responsible. How selfish is abortion when you do it because you know you will lose your job, or be sick all the time, or have to work less hours and have less time and less $ for the kids and other dependents in your family? How responsible it is to have to move your family to a less safe neighborhood or have to feed your other kids less? How responsible is it to have a kid you cant afford and then just expect the taxpayers to foot the public assistance bill?

Destroying that beautiful life would be abominable.

Oh cry me a river...how many 'beautiful lives' have you adopted? How much do you donate to organizations supporting single mothers? How happy are you seeing your tax dollars going to pay for families where parents cant afford to raise their kids?

You are welcome to your personal opinion but I have no trouble imagining you not giving a crap about 'the kids' of strangers.

 

[Bucky]

It's not selfish, it's very responsible. How selfish is abortion when you do it because you know you will lose your job, or be sick all the time, or have to work less hours and have less time and less $ for the kids and other dependents in your family? How responsible it is to have to move your family to a less safe neighborhood or have to feed your other kids less? How responsible is it to have a kid you cant afford and then just expect the taxpayers to foot the public assistance bill?

These are issues unrelated to the actual pro-choice pro-life issue -

Maternity leave
Paid Family leave
Pregnancy discrimination
Gender discrimination

This country needs to do a better job protecting those women that become pregnant. I would strongly agree with you there.

But once again, unrelated to the actual issue being discussed.

 

[Peter King]

These are issues unrelated to the actual pro-choice pro-life issue -

Maternity leave
Paid Family leave
Pregnancy discrimination
Gender discrimination

This country needs to do a better job protecting those women that become pregnant. I would strongly agree with you there.

But once again, unrelated to the actual issue being discussed.

And what issue would that be? The constant complaining by pro-lifers? The desire to strip women of their right to choose? Yes, I would agree those are the issues (gor the biggest part. Sure there are issues in bringing the number of abortions down even further, but that is not the actual issue IMHO. That is the lack of respect from a woman's right to choose.

 

[year2late]

These are issues unrelated to the actual pro-choice pro-life issue -

Maternity leave
Paid Family leave
Pregnancy discrimination
Gender discrimination

This country needs to do a better job protecting those women that become pregnant. I would strongly agree with you there.

But once again, unrelated to the actual issue being discussed.

Actually very much related.


Think a little harder and figure out why those issues are intertwined with the abortion debate.

 

[minnie616]

Actions have consequences.

You have been speaking in hyperboles. The fact is the majority of abortions have nothing to do with rape, incest, the mothers health or babies health.

The majority of women that have abortions had consensual sex. The man did not wear a condom, birth control or contraceptives were not used, etc... They weren't forced to have sex. Again, lets be real.

The woman is making a selfish choice. Lursa, if you and I had consensual sex and you became pregnant, that should be a monumental moment in your life.

Destroying that beautiful life would be abominable.

As I stated before 65 percent of women who aree of child bearing years in the US use an artificial birth consistently and correctly.

They said no to pregnancy.

However no method of artificial birth control is 100 percent effective.
Even when a BC method is 99 percent it means that one woman of child bearing years out 100 will become pregnant even though they were using birth control consistently and correctly.

Over 60 percent of all women who seek abortions have at least one born child.

 

[minnie616]

These are issues unrelated to the actual pro-choice pro-life issue -

Maternity leave
Paid Family leave
Pregnancy discrimination
Gender discrimination

This country needs to do a better job protecting those women that become pregnant. I would strongly agree with you there.

But once again, unrelated to the actual issue being discussed.

No, it has a lot to do being able to have a legal elective abortion within the parameter of Roe vs. Wade.

My married daughter works for a small business that does not have any paid maternity leave.
When she had her baby she had to your sick days when she gave birth.
Within two weeks had to return work part time for the next the month in order to keep her health benefits.

It is also a right to work state.
She can be fired for any reason , even pregnancy.

Yes, this country does need to protect women who become pregnant.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

It's the same here in Canada. Abortion on demand was illegal here when I was a teen, but my parents discussed things with me and made it clear that if I got pregnant despite them teaching me about birth control and advising me to tell them if I wanted to be sexually active so they could get me on the pill, that they would support me no matter what choice I made (parenting vs placing for adoption). I'm sure they would have said the same about abortion had it been legal (they were both pro choice).

The issue is rarely an issue if parents have done a good job with fostering communication. However, I support the policy, and have been party to it on at least one occasion.

 

[Lursa]

These are issues unrelated to the actual pro-choice pro-life issue -

Maternity leave
Paid Family leave
Pregnancy discrimination
Gender discrimination

This country needs to do a better job protecting those women that become pregnant. I would strongly agree with you there.

But once again, unrelated to the actual issue being discussed.

Most of those things are either resolved or we pay for them now, however are not necessarily available to or help young women working entry level hourly rate jobs.

But you are right, let's discuss the actual issue: I have asked you these more than once and you refuse. You refuse to discuss 1) why the unborn is more entitled to life, liberty (The positive enjoyment of social, political, or economic rights and privileges), pursuit of happiness, privacy, due process, etc than women are? Because most or all of those rights of women would be violated by the govt making abortion illegal.

The born and unborn cannot be treated equally....2) unless you can explain how?

 

[Bucky]

Actually very much related.

Think a little harder and figure out why those issues are intertwined with the abortion debate.

I'm guessing if employers were not discriminating against pregnant women and the government did more to help single mothers etc.... The pro choice people would still be pro choice.

Just as if school shooting stopped, this country did more for the mentally ill, more to stop gang violence, the anti-gun people would still be ant-gun.

 

[minnie616]

I'm guessing if employers were not discriminating against pregnant women and the government did more to help single mothers etc.... The pro choice people would still be pro choice.

Just as if school shooting stopped, this country did more for the mentally ill, more to stop gang violence, the anti-gun people would still be ant-gun.

Actually , helping the pregnant women know she and her child to be will not be faced with future of poverty ( because of the pregnancy) can help change an unwanted pregnancy into a wanted one.

Women continue wanted pregnancies.

Both pro choice people and pro life people should work together to help make abortions truly rare.

 

[prometeus]

I'm guessing if employers were not discriminating against pregnant women and the government did more to help single mothers etc.... The pro choice people would still be pro choice.

Just as if school shooting stopped, this country did more for the mentally ill, more to stop gang violence, the anti-gun people would still be ant-gun.

For the first time, you are right, but I bet you do not understand why.

 

[Removable Mind]

I'm guessing if employers were not discriminating against pregnant women and the government did more to help single mothers etc.... The pro choice people would still be pro choice.

Just as if school shooting stopped, this country did more for the mentally ill, more to stop gang violence, the anti-gun people would still be ant-gun.

Do you realize that most pro-choice women wouldn't have an abortion? Do you realize that most pro-choice, men and women want the fewest abortions as "necessary". But let me be clear about the word "necessary". Only a woman who has conceived can determine what's necessary to her. It's not government's business, religion's business, religions' business when women want abortions, within the confines of the law, of course.

And I see you gravitate toward the topic of "late term abortions". They are illegal UNLESS the woman's life is in jeopardy or the fetus is significantly damaged or dead.

 

[year2late]

I'm guessing if employers were not discriminating against pregnant women and the government did more to help single mothers etc.... The pro choice people would still be pro choice.

Just as if school shooting stopped, this country did more for the mentally ill, more to stop gang violence, the anti-gun people would still be ant-gun.

Bucky, you do not get it. Pro choice is about giving the individual the right to chose based on her and her family's circumstances. If employment opportunities were improved and the government (or whoever) did more to assure her family could be safe and had opportunities to thrive...it is entirely possible (probable) more women would chose not to abort. That is the thing about being prochoice - the choice can be "NO"!

 

[Bucky]

Bucky, you do not get it. Pro choice is about giving the individual the right to chose based on her and her family's circumstances. If employment opportunities were improved and the government (or whoever) did more to assure her family could be safe and had opportunities to thrive...it is entirely possible (probable) more women would chose not to abort. That is the thing about being prochoice - the choice can be "NO"!

I agree, I don't get.

I equate a fetus with human life. You may vehemently disagree with that position but that is a belief millions of Americans believe in.

Luckily, when America elects a conservative Republican in 2016, the activist judges on the Supreme court will retire and our new President will nominate conservative judges.

Roe v. Wade will be overturned, Planned Parenthood will be defunded. The time is coming for a moral awakening in America. None of you will be able to stop it.