Why not negotiate a lasting deal now to prevent further deaths in Ukraine and further escalation that has the potential for a nuclear exchange

[Fledermaus]

Correct lols

Once again , claiming the attack to be illegal is NOT the same thing as saying Russia has no right to self defence. Tell me you are at least savvy enough to understand the distinction

I think it's illegal but I still think that Russia, as with all other nations, has the right to defend itself from external threats

You said " Democratic and peaceful" I just reminded you that the last truly reflective leader of the entire country was overthrown in a coup and that, far from being " peaceful" , the country has been in a vicious civil war since 2014

The people in the Donbas spoke too but nobody listened. Why do you think they voted in a comedian?


The Ukrainian leadership is pushing for NATO membership, that's a threat to Russia even if you aren't willing to accept it. They basically declared war on Russia in March last year and were arming themselves so as to do it.

Ask the people of Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria,Libya,Somalia, Yemen Serbia etc if they think NATO is " defensive"

I don't support the Russian decision to wage this war against Ukraine BUT I also refuse to be one of the one sided, reality dodging , hypocritical badge wearing populist sheeple types.

The declaration?

 

[oneworld2]

Russia invaded Ukraine and occupied Crimea. Ukraine is a sovereign country and never agreed with that, they are simply fighting to take back the land that is already theirs.
No one in their right mind thinks Ukraine declared war on Russia. And their trying to take back Crimea is obviously not a legitimate reason for Putin to launch this full-scale invasion of Ukraine (and kill citizens, etc.).

As I said. You are lying about Ukraine declaring war on Russia. You're spinning it 180 degrees from the truth.

Russia did invade Ukraine and seize Crimea, later to annexe it. No problem with all of that.

The Ukraine has since shelled the people of Donbas killing thousands in the process because they refuse to be governed by people they never elected nor who ideas they support

Then we move on to the next phase of the proxy Ukraine/Russia conflict. The Russians not so subtle backing of seperatists and the flood of arms into Ukraine to wage war on Donbas

In March 2021 Zelenskys crew announces a new initiative to focus on wrestling Crimea from Russian hands ,specifically referencing Savastopol and begins to arm for the project. That is a declaration to attack Russian forces in Crimea and thus a virtual declaration of war against Russia itself

You don't seem to see that there is junk food for the masses to swallow and top nosh for the political/military elites to digest. They preempted this new offensive and invaded when nobody listened to their calls for Minsk to be actioned.

 

[Fledermaus]

Russia did invade Ukraine and seize Crimea, later to annexe it. No problem with all of that.

The Ukraine has since shelled the people of Donbas killing thousands in the process because they refuse to be governed by people they never elected nor who ideas they support

Then we move on to the next phase of the proxy Ukraine/Russia conflict. The Russians not so subtle backing of seperatists and the flood of arms into Ukraine to wage war on Donbas

In March 2021 Zelenskys crew announces a new initiative to focus on wrestling Crimea from Russian hands ,specifically referencing Savastopol and begins to arm for the project. That is a declaration to attack Russian forces in Crimea and thus a virtual declaration of war against Russia itself

You don't seem to see that there is junk food for the masses to swallow and top nosh for the political/military elites to digest. They preempted this new offensive and invaded when nobody listened to their calls for Minsk to be actioned.

So, the DECLARATION OF WAR?

Oh, wait. One does not declare war on their own land.

Both Crimea and Donbass are Ukraine territory.

 

[Mach]

You don't seem to see that there is junk food for the masses to swallow and top nosh for the political/military elites to digest. They preempted this new offensive and invaded when nobody listened to their calls for Minsk to be actioned.

You're posting the junkfood and everyone can see it.
Ukraine fighting to take back what Russia took via war recently, is just a continuous of the war Russia started. Ukraine is a sovereign country with a right to defend itself against unprovoked Putin/Russian invasion.

Enough already, we know you are pro-Russian on this. Doesn't mean you have to make shit up. Or maybe it does...pro-Russian does seem like an untenable reasonable position....

 

[Chagos]

When I don't quote people directly, it signifies that I don't find them worthy of debating.

Consequently I just comment on the content of their posts.

Tough.

They can then blow their habitual ad hominems-to-come into the great void.

 

[oneworld2]

You mean a lasting deal like the on Ukraine made with Russia where Russia said they would never in vade if Ukraine gave up their nukes?

Or some other sort of lasting deal?

It's impossible to negotiate a "lasting deal" with a bad faith actor like Russia

I'm sure that when Russia committed to the deal they didn't envisage Ukraine seeking to ally with a hostile powerful military alliance. Times change and the landscape changes with it. When they signed that there were ZERO former Warsaw Pact nations in NATO ( east Germany aside) and NATO seemed like a distant threat, Now they are being encircled by it they feel the need to draw the line in the sand at Ukraine/Georgia. People have been warning about it for years and that moment finally came to a head this yera, or arguably in 2014

 

[oneworld2]

When I don't quote people directly, it signifies that I don't find them worthy of debating.

Consequently I just comment on the content of their posts.

Tough.

They can then blow their habitual ad hominems-to-come into the great void.

Nope you got caught out lying about what I had said. Post 120 shows where and how that lie was made, You just chose to ignore it because you couldn't refute it. Those are the facts

 

[oneworld2]

You're posting the junkfood and everyone can see it.
Ukraine fighting to take back what Russia took via war recently, is just a continuous of the war Russia started. Ukraine is a sovereign country with a right to defend itself against unprovoked Putin/Russian invasion.

Enough already, we know you are pro-Russian on this. Doesn't mean you have to make shit up. Or maybe it does...pro-Russian does seem like an untenable reasonable position....

You are just swallowing everything the MSM is serving up to you and any who look past it or elsewhere for information must be Putinistas lols There are two sides to every story but not apparently for you

Western Ukraine is fighting to reclaim land it has lost land it lost by dumping on the pro Russian/ethnic Russian peoples of the Donbas ,which is infact makes that part of it a civil war or a proxy war between Russia and the West /NATO

They have the right to fight for Crimea too. I didn't and don't agree with its annexation but, that said, when you state a wish to set in motion the plan to get it back and arm up for it that IS a declaration of war to all intents and purposes

What we can tell from your position is that you obviously think that it was okay for western Ukrainians to stick it to the Eastern Ukrainians for their refusal to be dictated to by Kiev or else. So, when we break that down, it remains to be judged just how pro Ukrainian you are yourself

 

[Mach]

when you state a wish to set in motion the plan to get it back and arm up for it that IS a declaration of war to all intents and purposes

That's absurd.
War was declared on Ukraine when Russia invaded Crimea/Donbas. Ukraine as a sovereign was defending itself from Russian aggression.
That doesn't magically in stupid-world, make Ukraine "decarling war" on Russia. Russia had already declared war for no good reasons, on Ukraine. Ukraine is simply defending itself.

 

[Chagos]

post #132 confirms the prudence of the stance outlined in post #130

 

[oneworld2]

That's absurd.
War was declared on Ukraine when Russia invaded Crimea/Donbas. Ukraine as a sovereign was defending itself from Russian aggression.
That doesn't magically in stupid-world, make Ukraine "decarling war" on Russia. Russia had already declared war for no good reasons, on Ukraine. Ukraine is simply defending itself.

I don't think you are quite getting what I am saying here. So I will try to be clearer


There is the world of popular news and there is the world of diplomatic reality

Example.............. has war ever been declared by Russia on Ukraine? No, but we know it doesn't have to be because of the fact that Russian soldiers are in Ukraine now, and have been since 2014 in both Donbas and Crimea tells us there is a war going on.

So we have the ongoing conflict that has been strictly in the Donbas for around 8 years. No fighting in Crimea

Then in March last year Zelenkys government tells the world that it is planning for ( and arming for) an attack on Crimea. That is a noticeable shift and a defacto signal to Moscow that we are going to attack you in Crimea. Did they declare war? No, because hardly anyone does anymore. Is it a sign to Moscow that they are intending to broaden the war away from just a proxy war in Donbas to direct conflict with Russia in Crimea,

This is how these people think.

When the US invited Ukraine and Georgia to be future members of NATO it was a diplomatic finger to Russia's national security concerns. When they decided to start shipping weapons to Ukraine it is a defacto declaration of a NATO proxy war escalation. Has NATO declared war on Russia? No.

So, we have the junk that is fed to the masses for propaganda purposes by everyone and then we have the signalling systems used by state leaderships as statements of intent

If you don't get it after this I ain't wasting anymore time explaining and you can make what you want of my comments surrounding the Ukrainian signalling to Moscow of an impending broadening of the war to direct confrontation with Russia in Crimea

 

[oneworld2]

post #132 confirms the prudence of the stance outlined in post #130

Oh please lols

The only " prudence"" you have shown is for damage limitation off the back of you being caught in a lie

 

[Mach]

I don't think you are quite getting what I am saying here. So I will try to be clearer

Oh I get your propaganda. It's why you have to type so much to communicate so little...it's fluff.

There is the world of popular news and there is the world of diplomatic reality

Speaking of reality:

The dipolomatic reality of Crimea:
The United States and United Kingdom accused Russia of breaking the terms of the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances, by which Russia, the US, and the UK had reaffirmed their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine.[162] The Russian government said the Budapest Memorandum did not apply due to "circumstances resulting from the action of internal political or socio-economic factors"

On 27 March, the United Nations General Assembly adopted a non-binding resolution, which declared the Crimean referendum and subsequent status change invalid, by a vote of 100 to 11, with 58 abstentions and 24 absent.[215][216]
Russia broke that agreement, and invaded Ukraine.

The world didn't buy it, and neither do I.

So we have the ongoing conflict that has been strictly in the Donbas for around 8 years. No fighting in Crimea

Just because Ukrainian military didn't shoot Russian invaders, doesn't mean Russia invade Crimea (an act of war)

If you don't get it after this I ain't wasting anymore time explaining and you can make what you want of my comments surrounding the Ukrainian signalling to Moscow of an impending broadening of the war to direct confrontation with Russia in Crimea

Putin invaded Ukraine with his military in Crimea.
Again in Donbas.
And a full-scale invasion just recently.

No reasonable provocation existed. As I said, it's not just me, it's the world.
141 votes to condemn Russia's invasion.
5 including Russia, Belarus, and North Korea (Hah), against.

You are on the wrong side on this and thankfully you're in the tiny minority.

 

[oneworld2]

Oh I get your propaganda. It's why you have to type so much to communicate so little...it's fluff.






The world didn't buy it, and neither do I.


Just because Ukrainian military didn't shoot Russian invaders, doesn't mean Russia invade Crimea (an act of war)

Putin invaded Ukraine with his military in Crimea.
Again in Donbas.
And a full-scale invasion just recently.

No reasonable provocation existed. As I said, it's not just me, it's the world.
141 votes to condemn Russia's invasion.
5 including Russia, Belarus, and North Korea (Hah), against.

I overestimated your ability to understand the nuances of international relations and didn't realize that you actually prefer the sand pit provided by the MSM. Ya live and learn.

 

[Mach]

I overestimated your ability to understand the nuances of international relations and didn't realize that you actually prefer the sand pit provided by the MSM. Ya live and learn.

Don't attack me personally just because you lost the debate. Your argument is so weak you have to claim I don't understand your posts? Sad.
I can assure you might ability to reason isn't tested by your propaganda posts.

 

[KingLeo]

Long term that is probably what will happen.
Ukraine will be sectioned off.
Russia will get another chunk as they have long wanted a Russian land bridge to Crimea, i.e. The Mariupol line

 

[Simon W. Moon]

I'm sure that when Russia committed to the deal they didn't envisage Ukraine seeking to ally with a hostile powerful military alliance. Times change and the landscape changes with it. When they signed that there were ZERO former Warsaw Pact nations in NATO ( east Germany aside) and NATO seemed like a distant threat, Now they are being encircled by it they feel the need to draw the line in the sand at Ukraine/Georgia. People have been warning about it for years and that moment finally came to a head this yera, or arguably in 2014

Not sure what point you felt you were making here.

You say Russia kept its agreement until the world changed.

But that's the thing, "Times change and the landscape changes with it."

So, therefore we're back to my premise that Russia is likely to fail to keep the agreement as the world changes.

Given that we both agree about the nature of Russian agreements,
How can anyone negotiate a lasting peace with a Russia which will change their minds about the agreement?

 

[oneworld2]

Not sure what point you felt you were making here.

You say Russia kept its agreement until the world changed.

But that's the thing, "Times change and the landscape changes with it."

So, therefore we're back to my premise that Russia is likely to fail to keep the agreement as the world changes.

Given that we both agree about the nature of Russian agreements,
How can anyone negotiate a lasting peace with a Russia which will change their minds about the agreement?

The point was that when the Russians signed up they were not being, or even contemplating, being encircled by the hostile military alliance known as NATO. You might not see the relevance but I don't think your are looking at it as objectivly as you could or perhaps should. We will see more of this later on but for now..........

Russia imo is only as " likely to fail to keep to an agreement " as much as any other nation is likely to fail to keep an agreement if its put under a existential national security threat. I don't see why you can't see that.

Let's not forget that they have kept to that agreement right through all of the rounds of NATO expansionism, like for 20 years and would have kept to it longer had NATO not wrecklessly invited Ukraine and Georgia to join. Let's not forget the promise, not an agreement but a promise, that there would be no eastward creep of NATO during the reunification talks. Now Russia is encircled by NATO with Ukraine and Georgia waiting in the wings. I think their patience and steadfastness to that deal throughout all of those nations joining NATO showed a great deal of restraint

So in answer to your question they can't negotiate a bulletproof peace deal with Russia but they need to negotiate some sort of deal. That said, and we are back to what I mentioned earlier, how can any nation be trusted in such a way?

The US signed the UN charter and then shit all over it with wars/crimes in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Serbia, Somalia, Sudan, Panama, Grenada, Nicaragua etc etc Do you think the USA should be considered worthy of making a deal with or being loyal to its agreements off the back of that? Of course not but you want to hold Russia to a different standard, like as though they and only they cannot be trusted lols