Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581:1781]

[RAMOSS]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

How do I know something that is not impossible...is possible?

Well...I've got a brain...and no particular agenda that clouds that brain from recognizing the obvious.

Right?

So, you just made it up. Ok. You have no reason to htink that anything that might be possible also might be impossible.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

So, you just made it up.

Nope. That is not what I said.

But you probably did not understand the part about a brain...and no agenda...and recognizing the obvious.

You have problems in that area...and I am not going to pick on you for it.

I like you...and want to continue discussing these issues with you.

I'll try to take things slowly.

You have no reason to htink that anything that might be possible also might be impossible.

If a thing "might be possible" IT IS POSSIBLE. "Might be possible" means it has not been established as impossible...and anything that is not impossible...IS POSSIBLE.

So...a thing that is possible...CANNOT be impossible.

Also...a thing that is impossible...CANNOT be possible.

Okay?

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Nope. That is not what I said.

But you probably did not understand the part about a brain...and no agenda...and recognizing the obvious.

You have problems in that area...and I am not going to pick on you for it.

I like you...and want to continue discussing these issues with you.

I'll try to take things slowly.



If a thing "might be possible" IT IS POSSIBLE. "Might be possible" means it has not been established as impossible...and anything that is not impossible...IS POSSIBLE.

So...a thing that is possible...CANNOT be impossible.

Also...a thing that is impossible...CANNOT be possible.

Okay?

And, it is POSSIBLE to be impossible... As far as I can see, that is a blind spot you can't acknowledge.

Lack of knowledge does not determine if something is possible or not. All it means is 'I don't know if it is possible or not due to lack of data'.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

And, it is POSSIBLE to be impossible... As far as I can see, that is a blind spot you can't acknowledge.

It IS possible to be impossible. But being "possible to be impossible" is the same as saying "it is possible to be possible."

Either way ends up with "possible."

Something that is possible to be impossible...IS POSSIBLE.

No getting away from it.

If ultimately it is established to be impossible...it no longer is possible. But until then...IT IS POSSIBLE.

That, Ramoss, is the blind spot you cannot acknowledge.

Lack of knowledge does not determine if something is possible or not. All it means is 'I don't know if it is possible or not due to lack of data'.

Whatever!

Bottom line is: Until a thing is established as impossible...IT IS POSSIBLE.

We can just keep going back and forth on this for as long as you want...but things will never change.

Until a thing is established as impossible...IT IS POSSIBLE.

Anything that possibly is impossible...IS POSSIBLE...and does not stop being possible until it is established as impossible.

As regards the topic of this thread...I seriously doubt anyone will ever determine if "the universe" was created or not...so it is possible it was created...and it is possible is was not created.

So why not discuss something else.

Have you seen any good movies lately?

 

[Manny]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Proving an impossible is impossible. Why claim it?

What about mathematical proofs. If it can be proven that something equals something else, then any other answer must be wrong. That makes it impossible.

 

[Kal'Stang]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Moderator's Warning:

Things are starting to get personal again folks. Please don't do that.

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

It IS possible to be impossible. But being "possible to be impossible" is the same as saying "it is possible to be possible."

Either way ends up with "possible."

Something that is possible to be impossible...IS POSSIBLE.

No getting away from it.

If ultimately it is established to be impossible...it no longer is possible. But until then...IT IS POSSIBLE.

That, Ramoss, is the blind spot you cannot acknowledge.





Whatever!

Bottom line is: Until a thing is established as impossible...IT IS POSSIBLE.

We can just keep going back and forth on this for as long as you want...but things will never change.

Until a thing is established as impossible...IT IS POSSIBLE.

Anything that possibly is impossible...IS POSSIBLE...and does not stop being possible until it is established as impossible.

As regards the topic of this thread...I seriously doubt anyone will ever determine if "the universe" was created or not...so it is possible it was created...and it is possible is was not created.

So why not discuss something else.

Have you seen any good movies lately?

Ah, but I do acknowledge it. THere are many things I can say 'I don't know if it is possible or not'. Other things I say 'Before I can determine if what you claim is possible or impossible, can you define your terms in a meaningful way'. IF someone can not, then, any question or response to the primary question has no meaning. If the statement can have not objective verification it ends up being emotivism

 

[DDD]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

What about mathematical proofs. If it can be proven that something equals something else, then any other answer must be wrong. That makes it impossible.

Elaborate please.

 

[DDD]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Saying something is possible is not the same as believing in it.

If it's not impossible, it's possible. That's how.

So this flawed axiom is just a saying, not a belief then?

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Ah, but I do acknowledge it. THere are many things I can say 'I don't know if it is possible or not'. Other things I say 'Before I can determine if what you claim is possible or impossible, can you define your terms in a meaningful way'. IF someone can not, then, any question or response to the primary question has no meaning. If the statement can have not objective verification it ends up being emotivism

Yeah, I know that. Whenever a conversation starts to go against some people...they start asking for definitions.

If you want to discuss what we are discussing, Ramoss, do so. If you consider it meaningless...stop doing so. I'd much prefer you do so...the conversation is interesting...and I do not see it as "meaningless" in any way.

Under any circumstances...if a thing is not impossible...it is possible.

Specific to this discussion: It is possible that what we humans call "the universe" was created...and it is possible that what we humans call "the universe" was not created.

If you want to guess (or "believe") one way or the other...no big deal.

 

[calamity]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

So this flawed axiom is just a saying, not a belief then?

No. It's a matter of understanding what the word "possible" means. Until something is shown to be impossible, it is possible.

In IK's earlier example, the Caveman said jumping to the moon is possible. Newton, a few thousand years later, proved it to be impossible. Americans, a few centuries later, showed that "jumping" to the moon in a rocket was not only possible, but also achievable.

A hundred years ago, an athlete running a four-minute mile was considered impossible. They were wrong. Today, we know it actually was possible...because we did it. And, unless there is a Newton-like set of equations governing the physical limits of the human body proving different, we know that someday an athlete running the mile in three minutes must be possible.

 

[calamity]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Ah, but I do acknowledge it. THere are many things I can say 'I don't know if it is possible or not'. Other things I say 'Before I can determine if what you claim is possible or impossible, can you define your terms in a meaningful way'. IF someone can not, then, any question or response to the primary question has no meaning. If the statement can have not objective verification it ends up being emotivism

Most lay people would say walking through a wall is impossible. Quantum physics claims it is possible however. Insufficient knowledge does not determine if something is not possible. But someone with sufficient knowledge can show walking through walls is impossible and that quantum theory is flawed.

 

[DDD]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

No. It's a matter of understanding what the word "possible" means. Until something is shown to be impossible, it is possible.

In IK's earlier example, the Caveman said jumping to the moon is possible. Newton, a few thousand years later, proved it to be impossible. Americans, a few centuries later, showed that "jumping" to the moon in a rocket was not only possible, but also achievable.

A hundred years ago, an athlete running a four-minute mile was considered impossible. They were wrong. Today, we know it actually was possible...because we did it. And, unless there is a Newton-like set of equations governing the physical limits of the human body proving different, we know that someday an athlete running the mile in three minutes must be possible.

Until we know of these things on that future day, claiming that they are possible today is just speculation, not an assertion. Assertions require evidence that we do not have because we are not in the future but are at the present.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Most lay people would say walking through a wall is impossible. Quantum physics claims it is possible however. Insufficient knowledge does not determine if something is not possible. But someone with sufficient knowledge can show walking through walls is impossible and that quantum theory is flawed.

From the response you got...

...it is obvious you were correct when you suggested some people simply do not understand the meaning of "possible."

Good luck. Keep up the good work...and keep the good sense of humor. You'll need it for some of this stuff.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Until we know of these things on that future day, claiming that they are possible today is just speculation, not an assertion. Assertions require evidence that we do not have because we are not in the future but are at the present.

"Assertions" do not require evidence. Assertions require a voice...or a keyboard.

A person can assert something that is totally false...such as "assertions require evidence."

 

[tecoyah]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Possible vs. impossible is rather irrelevant in the realities of daily life. Probability is what actually matters, defines our everyday world and has effect on our lives. Many things can be imagined as possible that are so improbable as to be an impossibility for all intent and purpose. While we humans can imagine pretty much anything, we cannot "Make" these things real by doing so, and thought experiment without validation in some way is futility, or at best mental masterbation.

 

[Manny]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Elaborate please.

What would you like me to add? Surely you know what I mean by a mathematical proof.

Proof that pi is irrational:

 

[calamity]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Until we know of these things on that future day, claiming that they are possible today is just speculation, not an assertion. Assertions require evidence that we do not have because we are not in the future but are at the present.

It's actually quite the opposite. Things are possible until evidence comes along to show it is not.

Let's switch gears a little bit to explore that. Is a time machine possible? Of course it is. Right? Granted, no one has come up with one, and we have no clue how they even would build such a contraption. But, we certainly can not rule out that it is possible to build it. Hence it is possible.

 

[calamity]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Possible vs. impossible is rather irrelevant in the realities of daily life. Probability is what actually matters, defines our everyday world and has effect on our lives. Many things can be imagined as possible that are so improbable as to be an impossibility for all intent and purpose. While we humans can imagine pretty much anything, we cannot "Make" these things real by doing so, and thought experiment without validation in some way is futility, or at best mental masterbation.

When it comes to gods...or time machines, for that matter, we cannot even assign probabilities to the likelihood of them existing or being built. We do not know enough. All we can say is, "It's possible."

 

[calamity]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

From the response you got...

...it is obvious you were correct when you suggested some people simply do not understand the meaning of "possible."

Good luck. Keep up the good work...and keep the good sense of humor. You'll need it for some of this stuff.

I love responses that say, "Prove that it's possible." It's as if they don't know that once I prove something is possible, it has suddenly moved from the realm of "possible" to become "known fact." Flying beyond the speed of sound in a jet is not only possible, it is a known fact. :lol:

 

[RAMOSS]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Most lay people would say walking through a wall is impossible. Quantum physics claims it is possible however. Insufficient knowledge does not determine if something is not possible. But someone with sufficient knowledge can show walking through walls is impossible and that quantum theory is flawed.

No, not at all. Someone would say that on a macro scale, the repulsive charges of the neutrons and elections of physical structure of a wall will prohibit the passage of the similar structure of a person, which is entirely in tune with quantum theory.

 

[DDD]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Possible vs. impossible is rather irrelevant in the realities of daily life. Probability is what actually matters, defines our everyday world and has effect on our lives. Many things can be imagined as possible that are so improbable as to be an impossibility for all intent and purpose. While we humans can imagine pretty much anything, we cannot "Make" these things real by doing so, and thought experiment without validation in some way is futility, or at best mental masterbation.

Tell me about it, look at what I am dealing with:

It's actually quite the opposite. Things are possible until evidence comes along to show it is not.

Let's switch gears a little bit to explore that. Is a time machine possible? Of course it is. Right? Granted, no one has come up with one, and we have no clue how they even would build such a contraption. But, we certainly can not rule out that it is possible to build it. Hence it is possible.

The problem is that by such a definition underlined above any imaginary idea/concept/thought is also possible. Further as illustrated in post 1330 it takes delusional people to go ahead and believe in anything that they can come up with.

 

[DDD]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

What would you like me to add? Surely you know what I mean by a mathematical proof.

Proof that pi is irrational:

Please lets keep the topic more respectable by not using Weak-o-pedia sources.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Possible vs. impossible is rather irrelevant in the realities of daily life. Probability is what actually matters, defines our everyday world and has effect on our lives. Many things can be imagined as possible that are so improbable as to be an impossibility for all intent and purpose. While we humans can imagine pretty much anything, we cannot "Make" these things real by doing so, and thought experiment without validation in some way is futility, or at best mental masterbation.

Tecoyah..."possible vs. impossible" may be rather irrelevant to the "realities" of daily life...but protestations by some that certain things cannot be possible IS relevant.

That, in essence, is what is being discussed here.

Why not "believe" the thing we humans call "the universe" is a creation?

It is possible that it is.

It also is possible that it is not.

Any mental masturbation going on here, is on the part of the people trying to call the arguments Calamity and I have been making...illogical.

Our arguments are logical and coherent.

 

[Frank Apisa]

Re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

It's actually quite the opposite. Things are possible until evidence comes along to show it is not.

Let's switch gears a little bit to explore that. Is a time machine possible? Of course it is. Right? Granted, no one has come up with one, and we have no clue how they even would build such a contraption. But, we certainly can not rule out that it is possible to build it. Hence it is possible.

Not sure why this stuff has not sunk in for the people...but I suspect it is because they are resisting the obvious.

Today...right now...I can say with certainty..."It is possible that Brazil will win the World Cup in 2018.'

And it is possible...just as it is possible that Brazil will not win it.

After the 2018 World Cup is decided, however, and Germany wins it...it will be IMPOSSIBLE for Brazil to win that particular year's cup.

That has absolutely NO IMPACT on the fact that, right now, it is possible they will win it.