Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581:1781]

[William Rea]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

False. You can believe what you want. I myself do not believe in gods.

But, they are possible.

I lack a belief in a positive assertion that has no evidence. That is the logical and rational position.

 

[zyzygy]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Gandalf and Saruman are specific characters which can be eliminated, IMO, from being real just like the Christian God and the Hindu Vishnu--again this is my opinion. Gods, however, is a pretty broad term...much harder to eliminate such a broad term.

Why is it harder to eliminate them? Why are gods not fictional characters? During the night I saw in a vision the Great Green Snot Beast who revealed to me that he created the universe. Does this mean that suddenly the Great Green Snot Beast could possibly exist? Gods is a broad term? Do you know the definition of the word god? The Christian god and the Hindu gods are not real but these broader gods are possibly real. That does not make sense. It makes me wonder what the attributes of these broader gods could be.

 

[zyzygy]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

At no point am I saying any of that.

Stop that nonsense, Z.

What I am saying...and what you ought to be dealing with...is that it is possible that gods exist.

Are you disagreeing?

Are you saying it is impossible for gods to exist?

That was a response, not an answer.

 

[Frank Apisa]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Well that is kind of the point because in the 'Frankiverse' the definition of 'believing' is applying reason to the tautology! He is actually demanding that you accept the dogma and that anything other than that is not the application of reason but 'guessing'. Several of us have tried to point out the absurdity of this but, he refuses to engage so, the conclusion is that this is the posting of a fundamentalist agnostic troll.

I am not an agnostic troll, William...but I understand why some would want to paint me that way. It is easier than dealing with the issues I raise.

If a thing is not impossible...it simply is possible.

There is nothing difficult or unreasonable about that. The fact that you cannot acknowledge that...should, if you have any kind of open mind, clue you in to the fact that YOU are being unreasonable in this discussion.

Anyway...it is possible what we humans call "the universe"...is a creation...so the answer to the title question is a variation on, "Why not?"

 

[Frank Apisa]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

No, another straw man. What I see is that we are disagreeing with an irrational argument and a series of smart ass posts that think they are more clever than they are.

No straw man in what Calamity wrote.

My arguments are not irrational...and I think the fact that they are not irrational is what is bothering you.

You deal very nicely with truly irrational arguments. The rational ones are the kind that give you trouble.

It seems to me that you do not want there to be any possibility of "the universe" being "a creation"...so you want to dismiss what Calamity and I are saying in our posts.

 

[William Rea]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Setting aside any religious dogma. Why is it easier for some of us to consider this universe and its entirety happened by chance rather than conscious calculation? I don't think its fair to try and justify the psychology of a creator of the universe in this post. (i.e: Why is there evil?)
I'm honestly curious why it is easier to assume chaotic randomness as opposed to a calculated design.

I'm not sure about starting from 'chaotic randomness', this idea is kind of poisoning the well as it implies a certain improbability that is not real. The probability of this Universe happening as it has is 1 and, I don't know of any way we can determine that it is less than 1.

It is possible that we did not emerge from chaos but, that we actually are the result of order turning to chaos.

I don't think that it is actually easier to consider that we are here as a result of a process that resulted in us this time around.

 

[Frank Apisa]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

I lack a belief in a positive assertion that has no evidence. That is the logical and rational position.

Just about everyone in this thread lack "beliefs" in assertions of any kind that have no evidence backing them.

That is logical and rational.

So you should be able to agree that if a thing is not impossible...it is possible.

 

[Frank Apisa]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Why is it harder to eliminate them? Why are gods not fictional characters? During the night I saw in a vision the Great Green Snot Beast who revealed to me that he created the universe. Does this mean that suddenly the Great Green Snot Beast could possibly exist? Gods is a broad term? Do you know the definition of the word god? The Christian god and the Hindu gods are not real but these broader gods are possibly real. That does not make sense. It makes me wonder what the attributes of these broader gods could be.

What you are doing is starting from the position that "gods" are fictional characters.

What you ought to be doing is dealing with the question, "What is the true nature of the REALITY of existence?"

We do not know if gods are involved or not...we do not know if this thing we humans call "the universe" is all there is...or if it is just a small part of some much, much greater other. And we most certainly do not know if it is a "creation" or not.

If it is a "creation"...it would require a creator.

What does not make sense is simply eliminating this one possibility from all the many possibilities that exist about the REALITY.

 

[Frank Apisa]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

That was a response, not an answer.

Okay...but your post was a response to my question...not an answer.

That happens often...and is a reasonable way to deal with some questions.

So if you use "response" rather than "answer" when you deem it appropriate...what is your problem with me doing so?

 

[Frank Apisa]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

I'm not sure about starting from 'chaotic randomness', this idea is kind of poisoning the well as it implies a certain improbability that is not real. The probability of this Universe happening as it has is 1 and, I don't know of any way we can determine that it is less than 1.

It is possible that we did not emerge from chaos but, that we actually are the result of order turning to chaos.

I don't think that it is actually easier to consider that we are here as a result of a process that resulted in us this time around.

"Chaos" is something.

We have absolutely no idea of what the REALITY of existence is...and anyone who asserts "it is the result of creation by a god" is doing nothing more than asserting a blind guess about REALITY.

Likewise, anyone who asserts "the one thing it is not...is the result of creation by a god" is doing that same thing...asserting a blind guess.

 

[zyzygy]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

What you are doing is starting from the position that "gods" are fictional characters.

What you ought to be doing is dealing with the question, "What is the true nature of the REALITY of existence?"

Reality is reality. The question has no meaning.

 

[Frank Apisa]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Well gee, I took a look at this one because you answered a post referring back to the OP and I find you still being you. My mistake.

That was one of the worst attempts to pretend you are ignoring me that I've ever read.

Thanks. I love to start a day with a good laugh. :lol:

 

[Frank Apisa]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Reality is reality. The question has no meaning.

The question has been considered by the greatest minds the planet has ever had. It has plenty of meaning.

But I can understand YOU thinking it doesn't!

 

[William Rea]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

That was one of the worst attempts to pretend you are ignoring me that I've ever read.

Thanks. I love to start a day with a good laugh. :lol:

Don't read so well do you Frank...

Again, more snark and avoidance from you Frank.

My point clearly goes over your head and you special plead and handwave away points made by myself, DDD and others. I can only conclude that you are a troll so I will minimise what I post to you. Ignorance is bliss and you are clearly ecstatic. Touche and goodbye.

I thought you might not have been trolling so I opened that one. Like I said, my mistake, same old Frank.

 

[zyzygy]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

That was one of the worst attempts to pretend you are ignoring me that I've ever read.

Thanks. I love to start a day with a good laugh. :lol:

It's a fair exchange. You provide lots of laughs.

 

[zyzygy]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

The question has been considered by the greatest minds the planet has ever had. It has plenty of meaning.

And still no answer. That speaks volumes. Leaving aside our greatest minds, do you have an answer?

 

[Frank Apisa]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Don't read so well do you Frank...



I thought you might not have been trolling so I opened that one. Like I said, my mistake, same old Frank.

Your "mistake" was to suppose this response was somehow a better attempt at pretending you are ignoring me, William.

The problem with the pretense is that it leaves you almost no room for any kind of response...like the last two!

 

[Frank Apisa]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

And still no answer. That speaks volumes.

This is another response rather than answer on your part, Z.

Leaving aside our greatest minds, do you have an answer?

Yup.

Do you have a question?

 

[Tim the plumber]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

No...I am not being dishonest...but in effect, you are.

His intent was clear...talking about primitive peoples inventing things...and then questioning the possibility of a god.

If you cannot see it...I cannot help you.

Again you avoid straight talk you constantly want to try to appear to be clever by speaking in riddles.

It is not the same thing to ask why you need to invent a god as to state that there is no possibility of a god.

That you avoid answering any question is part of your tactic of never being wrong by never saying anything.

 

[Frank Apisa]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Again you avoid straight talk you constantly want to try to appear to be clever by speaking in riddles.

I do not speak in riddles. I am straight forward.

It is not the same thing to ask why you need to invent a god as to state that there is no possibility of a god.

I do not need to invent a god...and I have NEVER invented a god. What are you talking about?

That you avoid answering any question is part of your tactic of never being wrong by never saying anything.[/COLOR]

I have answered every question put to me.

Ask a question...and I will answer.

 

[zyzygy]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

This is another response rather than answer on your part, Z.



Yup.

Do you have a question?

You don't remember the question that you stated? Let me assist your fading memory.
"What is the true nature of the REALITY of existence?"

The floor is yours.

 

[zyzygy]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

Again you avoid straight talk you constantly want to try to appear to be clever by speaking in riddles.

It has the opposite effect.

 

[zyzygy]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

I do not speak in riddles. I am straight forward.



I do not need to invent a god...and I have NEVER invented a god. What are you talking about?



I have answered every question put to me.

Ask a question...and I will answer.

What is the true nature of reality? Is it possible that gods existed when dinosaurs ruled the Earth? Did they have names back then? Is it possible that Jupiter exists because the ancient Romans thought him up? I was visited by the Great Green snot Beast who I now believe to be the creator of the universe, does that mean that suddenly out of nowhere the possibility that he exists now exists?

 

[Frank Apisa]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

You don't remember the question that you stated? Let me assist your fading memory.
"What is the true nature of the REALITY of existence?"

The floor is yours.

Earth calling, Z...Earth calling, Z.

Throughout this thread...I have repeatedly said: I DO NOT KNOW THE TRUE NATURE OF THE REALITY OF EXISTENCE.

I am, and have throughout, acknowledged that I do not know...and do not have enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess...

...so I don't.

I do not know, Z.

Allow me to repeat that:

I do not know the true nature of the REALITY of existence.

So I cannot include nor exclude anything that is possible.

Jeez!

By the way...did I mention that I do not know the true nature of the REALITY of existence?

That is why I answer the topic question: Why not. It is possible "the universe" is a creation...and it is possible "the universe" is NOT a creation.

Guess whichever way you want.

 

[Frank Apisa]

re: Why Not Believe The Universe Was Created?[W:1581]

What is the true nature of reality? Is it possible that gods existed when dinosaurs ruled the Earth? Did they have names back then? Is it possible that Jupiter exists because the ancient Romans thought him up? I was visited by the Great Green snot Beast who I now believe to be the creator of the universe, does that mean that suddenly out of nowhere the possibility that he exists now exists?

I DO NOT KNOW THE TRUE NATURE OF THE REALITY OF EXISTENCE...and I am not illogical nor foolish enough to rule certain things out...like you are doing.